RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/7/2008 5:49:56 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Nope
Where does it come from?
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Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/7/2008 8:13:11 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emergingquote:
Emerging - do you believe that all are "saved" in the sense of all go to paradise/heaven and none go to sheol/genenna/hell? Dave,
This questions puts us right in the trap of what you named as the biggest problem of american evangelism - namely, reducing salvation to going to heaven. No I am not reducing it. I am asking if they passed the first grade.
Heaven vs hell status is only the beginning but it is a sine qua non. We establish that and then go and grow on to maturity.
What I call the trap is the idea that once you pass first grade you have graduated.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/7/2008 8:30:55 PM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
ar 10:13 And they were bringing children to Him so that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked them.
Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
the kingdom of heave belongs to this kind.
You believe only children brought to Christ are in heaven?
a question
answer:
no, but unless you become like one of these little one, you will not enter the kingdom.
Luk 18:17 "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/7/2008 10:10:06 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
ar 10:13 And they were bringing children to Him so that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked them.
Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
the kingdom of heave belongs to this kind.
You believe only children brought to Christ are in heaven?
a question
answer:
no, but unless you become like one of these little one, you will not enter the kingdom.
Luk 18:17 "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all."
Little children exist in some born again state?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/8/2008 7:02:30 AM
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makarizo
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Jesus said to Nicodemus In John 3:3 :
'if any man....." (no idea what the Greek word is there)
is a child the same thing as any man?
if a man is born again, does he 'become like a child' and can a child become like a child?
(no syllogism intended)
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/8/2008 9:07:51 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
is a child the same thing as any man?
Yes, a fallen human being... A child is either part of mankind or not...
quote:
if a man is born again, does he 'become like a child'
No, he becomes a new creature in Christ...
quote:
and can a child become like a child?
Nonetheless he/she would have to be born again since one is not born a new creature in Christ from the womb
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 9/8/2008 9:18:00 AM >
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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[Deleted] - 9/8/2008 9:44:58 AM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/8/2008 6:18:19 PM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
is a child the same thing as any man?
Yes, a fallen human being... A child is either part of mankind or not...
Jesus did not say let the fallen human beings come to me for such is the kingdom of heaven.
a verse only for Jeremiah:
Jer 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."
what do you think this is about?
Mat 18:10 "See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.
and in Mt 18:3, Jesus gets a child, and tells the crowd: unless you are converted and become like children you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
if children are fallen human beings, what makes them so special that Jesus would tell the crowd becoming like them is a requirement to get to heaven?
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/8/2008 7:40:14 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
Jesus did not say let the fallen human beings come to me for such is the kingdom of heaven.
He didn't have to, it's a given... Much the same way He didn't come to condemn the world, it was already taken care of...
quote:
a verse only for Jeremiah:
Jer 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."
Ok...
quote:
what do you think this is about?
Mat 18:10 "See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.
and in Mt 18:3, Jesus gets a child, and tells the crowd: unless you are converted and become like children you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
if children are fallen human beings, what makes them so special that Jesus would tell the crowd becoming like them is a requirement to get to heaven?
How are children not fallen human beings? When do they become part of mankind? Conception? Birth? First sin, some never mentioned age of accountability?
As for requirements for salvation...
I thoughts those were... To be born again... That being the Spiritual birth since the first birth doesn't avail man anything...
Believe in the Lord Jesus....
Take up the cross...
Be like a child...
Now... Does a child by nature, believe, take up the cross and is born again? No...
Consider this...
It's a matter of dependency... Children are dependent for everything and willing to accept from those who provide what is needed... Further.... In those times children were looked upon as the lowliest of the lowly, and Jesus here is trying to use children as an example to get the point across to His disciples of the very way He approach things, making Himself the lowest of lowly first by being born a human being and identifying with sin, and later dying for sinners. He used he is using a simile; he calls upon adult disciples to become like children.
Children are not innocent...
Continue down the chapter in Matthew 18... Verse 6....
Matthew 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
Though it's quite clear it's a issue to cause someone to sin, that doesn't remove the fact that one is as well personally responsible.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/9/2008 6:50:08 PM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
How are children not fallen human beings? When do they become part of mankind? Conception? Birth? First sin, some never mentioned age of accountability?
a child, by nature is innocent, and when they loose their innocence, that would be the age you are looking for.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/9/2008 7:19:04 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
a child, by nature is innocent, and when they loose their innocence, that would be the age you are looking for.
How do you define "innocent"?
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/9/2008 7:54:11 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
a child, by nature is innocent, and when they loose their innocence, that would be the age you are looking for.
By nature a child is innocent? If that is truly the case God could have placed one on the cross and not bothered to lower Himself...
As well... Explain Joshua's action in Jericho in regards to your claim of innocence... Or God's actions regarding the flood... Mercy killings?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/9/2008 8:06:59 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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2 Kings 14:6 But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/9/2008 10:37:38 PM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
a child, by nature is innocent, and when they loose their innocence, that would be the age you are looking for.
How do you define "innocent"?
I give that one to God, because I don't know the answer in this particular context, but it has something to do with Jesus's words about "becoming like one of these little ones"
perhaps nothing is said in scripture about children going directly to heaven simply because it doesn't apply to the sinful men who are seeking salvation, it only applies to little children.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/9/2008 10:53:48 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
I give that one to God, because I don't know the answer in this particular context, but it has something to do with Jesus's words about "becoming like one of these little ones"
Innocence is never a requirement to get into heaven.... Blessed are those who sins are covered...
quote:
perhaps nothing is said in scripture about children going directly to heaven simply because it doesn't apply to the sinful men who are seeking salvation, it only applies to little children.
Nothing is said because the plan of salvation is clear...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/9/2008 11:59:09 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
I give that one to God, because I don't know the answer in this particular context,
So would say that, even when a little child exhibits greed, envy and covetousness, it's not a sin?
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You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/10/2008 7:24:40 AM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
I give that one to God, because I don't know the answer in this particular context,
So would say that, even when a little child exhibits greed, envy and covetousness, it's not a sin?
or when a baby screams at the top of his lungs because he didn't get his way?
MrF, if you choose to treat children like adults, if you wish to have them all tried as adults, if you choose to criticize them under the same scrutiny as you would an adult. if you choose to pick up some adult and hold them, kiss them, or give them a piece of candy as you would a child.
try hard to sell the lie about santa clause to some adult, or the easter bunny, or tooth fairy - in some attempt to prove to the world that a childs perception of the world and sin is the same as an adults.... be my guest.
and you write your book about how children are no different than adults in regard to innocence.
if you look up the definition of innocent....... that is what I am saying...... and that it is up to God
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/10/2008 10:31:06 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
MrF, if you choose to treat children like adults, if you wish to have them all tried as adults, if you choose to criticize them under the same scrutiny as you would an adult. if you choose to pick up some adult and hold them, kiss them, or give them a piece of candy as you would a child.
try hard to sell the lie about santa clause to some adult, or the easter bunny, or tooth fairy - in some attempt to prove to the world that a childs perception of the world and sin is the same as an adults.... be my guest.
What about teenagers? They have a different perspective on the world than adults. Does God give them different treatment as well?
How about people from different cultural backgrounds? If there's a culture where betraying a friend unto death is considered praiseworthy, does God say "Oh, they think it's fine, so I will to!"? They are, after all, doing it "innocently".
Also, I never said there was no difference between a child and an adult. However, the reality of some difference does not make sin less sinful. When a young child lies to their parents to try and stay out of trouble, it's not just some boo-boo. It's a sin. When a child has been told that they need to stop hitting the other kids in the playground, but they keep doing it anyway, it's not just acting out. It's a sin. When a child is told that, no, they can't have chocolate ice cream, and they are so filled with anger and wrath, it's not just a tantrum. It's a sin.
I see nothing in Scripture that suggests to me that a child is innocent until a certain age. If you'd like to provide some Scripture that would help clarify that for me, I'd be deeply appreciative.
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You're a door without a key,
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- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/10/2008 7:18:54 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
I give that one to God, because I don't know the answer in this particular context,
So would say that, even when a little child exhibits greed, envy and covetousness, it's not a sin?
or when a baby screams at the top of his lungs because he didn't get his way?
MrF, if you choose to treat children like adults, if you wish to have them all tried as adults, if you choose to criticize them under the same scrutiny as you would an adult. if you choose to pick up some adult and hold them, kiss them, or give them a piece of candy as you would a child.
try hard to sell the lie about santa clause to some adult, or the easter bunny, or tooth fairy - in some attempt to prove to the world that a childs perception of the world and sin is the same as an adults.... be my guest.
and you write your book about how children are no different than adults in regard to innocence.
if you look up the definition of innocent....... that is what I am saying...... and that it is up to God
Explain their innocence in regards to them being treating like adults by God.... Flood, Jericho....
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/10/2008 9:32:18 PM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
They are, after all, doing it "innocently".
That is completely up to God. I give that to Him,....... would it make you mad if you saw "one of them" in heaven? would you run to God and call him a big liar? (of course you wouldn't)
I teach sunday school, and occasionally I teach 2nd grade for a person who can't always make it there to teach that class.
those kids are adorable!!!! I teach them, and they would believe anything I would tell them.... their parents tell them to listen to me!!!
would it make you mad if one of the kids got hit by a car and then ended up going to heaven?
do you believe that contradicts the scriptures?..... Let the children come to Me...(I don't remember reading that about teenagers and foreigners with weird traditions specifically).....now that Jesus is at the right hand of the Father, does He take it back? children no longer are welcome to come unto Me?
guilt or innocence is sooooooo not our call (ask Jonah about that one). we are called to evangelize, to preach the word, to preach the gospel to every living creature..... not to run around telling people that their infant is not going to heaven.
next thing you know, some crazy person will concoct a crazy infant baptism thingy.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/10/2008 9:38:04 PM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Explain their innocence in regards to them being treating like adults by God.... Flood, Jericho....
Sodom and Gomorrah, the titanic, tsunamis, tornados, Hiroshima, the twin towers........
for God's children, life really doesn't begin until after the explosion. we're just here to do His will for a little while.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/10/2008 10:48:01 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Explain their innocence in regards to them being treating like adults by God.... Flood, Jericho....
Sodom and Gomorrah, the titanic, tsunamis, tornados, Hiroshima, the twin towers........
for God's children, life really doesn't begin until after the explosion. we're just here to do His will for a little while.
What does that have to do with God treating children like adults?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/10/2008 11:04:26 PM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
What does that have to do with God treating children like adults?
your question doesn't make sense to me. it has nothing to do with it.
I have noticed that on the 12 pages of this thread you have been very consistent as the voice of infant d**nation......... why is that?
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/10/2008 11:09:19 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
would it make you mad if one of the kids got hit by a car and then ended up going to heaven?
It would make me overjoyed. As I've stated many times (well... Twice, but for a 12 page thread, that's almost "many") on here, I really, really hope I am wrong. I am not arguing for this view because I like it, I'm arguing for it because I think it's right.
quote:
do you believe that contradicts the scriptures?..... Let the children come to Me...(I don't remember reading that about teenagers and foreigners with weird traditions specifically).....now that Jesus is at the right hand of the Father, does He take it back? children no longer are welcome to come unto Me?
What, in the context of that quote, makes you think Jesus is talking about a person's eternal destination?
quote:
we are called to evangelize, to preach the word, to preach the gospel to every living creature..... not to run around telling people that their infant is not going to heaven.
You're painting me unfairly. I'm not suggesting we make picket signs that proclaim "Dead Babies Go to Hell." That'd be closer to Fred Phelps's line of work. I just think that it is wrong to ignore what, to me, seems to be the clear teaching of Scripture - that all have sinned, and that the wages of sin, any sin, is death.
If babies go to heaven, why are Christians so upset about abortion?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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Maybe would have pushed the envelope a bit too much? 