RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill person who is about to die
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/26/2008 10:08:47 AM
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Qtman
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It amazes me these same people who advocate keeping someone alive when it is obvious they are going to die would not sit by and let an animal suffer. I have seen people have animals put down because there was nothing else that could be done for them, they were in pain and agony and dying anyway. No I am not advocating we give people those shots but I am advocating that we honor the persons decision. If I ever get in that shape, and I probably will, I hope my family loves me as much as they did fido and will let me die in peace.
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/26/2008 10:25:39 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
As I see it, it is our job to fight to keep life going as long as humanly possible, even if it is just pumping blood thru an otherwise inoperative lump of flesh.
With the technology we have today it is possible to keep pumping blood throght and pumping air air in and out of a "Dead" person for an indefinate period. I would think that there is a time that when without the machines pumping the air and blood they would go ahead and rot; then it is probably time to trust God and believe what the Scripture says about the after-fife.
But of course that is just me.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/26/2008 10:32:42 AM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
As I see it, it is our job to fight to keep life going as long as humanly possible, even if it is just pumping blood thru an otherwise inoperative lump of flesh.
With the technology we have today it is possible to keep pumping blood throght and pumping air air in and out of a "Dead" person for an indefinate period. I would think that there is a time that when without the machines pumping the air and blood they would go ahead and rot; then it is probably time to trust God and believe what the Scripture says about the after-fife.
But of course that is just me.
Thanks
RC
I agree with RC.
The fact is that technology has presented us with real moral dilemmas which are not easily answered through the reading of scripture. I do not recall anywhere in the Bible where a person is presented with the possibility of artificially keeping a loved one alive. This is a case where our faith, as RC said, is tested.
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/26/2008 10:45:50 AM
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drmark
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quote:
As I see it, it is our job to fight to keep life going as long as humanly possible, even if it is just pumping blood thru an otherwise inoperative lump of flesh. DaveW, I just had a thought on this issue and your incredible position. Why didn't Jesus heal all the sick people He met? Why didn't He bring back to life all those that died during His three year ministry? Since He had the power to do it, yet chose not to, would you claim that Jesus gave up the "fight to keep life going" in all possible situations? Is our "job" to do more than Jesus?
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/26/2008 11:07:44 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Dave, I appreciate that this is your opinion, but I hope you give it a lot more thought. I hope you talk to your wife and your older children about it.
You seem like a man who loves with great passion. That is beautiful, Dave. But you know that since sin entered the world, so did death. It is part of life, and death, for a believer, isn't that big of a deal when it is their own. I hope, for you, that you can learn to let go and allow what truly is inevitable. How much better it will be for that loved one to be with the L-rd in His timing.
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"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/26/2008 12:23:57 PM
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PastorPatricia
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Thanks Liveloved for your kind words, I really appreciate them. To me it would have been selfish of us to keep her here for our sake. Sure we would have had a warm body to visit but nothing else. She was ready, God was ready and I was able to say the prayers for the dying with her. A real blessing.
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/26/2008 1:13:06 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Why didn't Jesus heal all the sick people He met? Why didn't He bring back to life all those that died during His three year ministry? Since He had the power to do it, yet chose not to, would you claim that Jesus gave up the "fight to keep life going" in all possible situations? Is our "job" to do more than Jesus? No - not more than Jesus. He said "I only do what I see the Father doing." He obviously had a much clearer view of that than any of us. We all - as Paul said - "see thru a glass dimly."
If I see that God is really calling someone home, beyond any doubt, I would let them go. But without that, I can and will not.
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/26/2008 1:15:12 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
I hope, for you, that you can learn to let go and allow what truly is inevitable. How much better it will be for that loved one to be with the L-rd in His timing. That is all well and fine for those in the Lord. However, not all my family are believers. Some (if they don't come around) await something MUCH WORSE than anything this life can mete out.
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/26/2008 1:23:38 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Oh, Dave. This rips my heart for you. Bless you. May the L-rd bless your loved ones and mine who are lost.
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/26/2008 1:26:40 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
As I see it, it is our job to fight to keep life going as long as humanly possible, even if it is just pumping blood thru an otherwise inoperative lump of flesh.
With the technology we have today it is possible to keep pumping blood throght and pumping air air in and out of a "Dead" person for an indefinate period. I would think that there is a time that when without the machines pumping the air and blood they would go ahead and rot; then it is probably time to trust God and believe what the Scripture says about the after-fife.
But of course that is just me.
Thanks
RC
I agree with RC.
The fact is that technology has presented us with real moral dilemmas which are not easily answered through the reading of scripture. I do not recall anywhere in the Bible where a person is presented with the possibility of artificially keeping a loved one alive. This is a case where our faith, as RC said, is tested.
I like both of these responses - I think they capture the essence of the problem and why these decisions are so difficult for the people involved.
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/26/2008 1:30:11 PM
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stellaluna
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Dave, I'm not trying to pick on you, honest...but you're the first person I've come across in a long while that vehemently advocates artificially keeping someone alive. So a couple more questions.
1) If someone is diagnosed with a terminal illness, and chooses not to be treated, or only chooses to be treated in a certain way...would you not say they have the right do to that? If it was one of these non-believing family members you speak of, would you attempt to overpower them by seeking legal means to make their medical decisions for them?
2) If someone was being kept alive artificially, you do realize that they have already passed, right? And whatever they are to meet in eternity has been met? When someone is on a vent, the doctors will test their brain activity and they will also check to see if the person can breathe on their own. They do this by turning off the machines and waiting for a period of time to see if heartbeat and respiration can occur. If it can't, the person is considered to be dead, although it is then up to the family to determine when to allow the machines off. (Or whoever has medical power of attorney.)
(For the purposes of this post...I'm making the distinction here between someone capable of breathing and who has bodily functions, i.e. Terry Schiavo, and someone who doesn't. If the body is functioning, I consider that a much different set of decisions to be made.)
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/26/2008 3:19:35 PM
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drmark
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quote:
If I see that God is really calling someone home, beyond any doubt, I would let them go. But without that, I can and will not. Dave, do you have the medical expertise to determine "beyond any doubt" or is it the "still small voice" that would confirm the prognosis in your heart?
quote:
2) If someone was being kept alive artificially, you do realize that they have already passed, right? And whatever they are to meet in eternity has been met? No, stellaluna, this is the precise point on which DaveW's personal opinion hinges. We do not "truly know" when the soul passes into eternity based on physiologic parameters such as heart beat, spontaneous respiration, or brain wave activity. A medical diagnosis of "death" may have nothing to do with the spiritual consequences of our eternal souls.
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/26/2008 3:28:20 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
1) If someone is diagnosed with a terminal illness, and chooses not to be treated, or only chooses to be treated in a certain way...would you not say they have the right do to that? If it was one of these non-believing family members you speak of, would you attempt to overpower them by seeking legal means to make their medical decisions for them? In all likely hood I would have no legal standing to do so. I would be badgering those who did have the legal standing to sustain their life.quote:
2) If someone was being kept alive artificially, you do realize that they have already passed, right? And whatever they are to meet in eternity has been met? No I do not. There is no scriptural link between "brain death" and what the bible would consider death. Since that concept is relatively new, there is NO WAY TO TELL if the soul and spirit are still in there or not.
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/26/2008 3:30:00 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Dave, do you have the medical expertise to determine "beyond any doubt" or is it the "still small voice" that would confirm the prognosis in your heart? That is not a medical question so expertise would be of no use. And it would take a whole lot more than just a still small voice.
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/26/2008 3:46:41 PM
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KuKu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Why didn't Jesus heal all the sick people He met? Why didn't He bring back to life all those that died during His three year ministry? Since He had the power to do it, yet chose not to, would you claim that Jesus gave up the "fight to keep life going" in all possible situations? Is our "job" to do more than Jesus? No - not more than Jesus. He said "I only do what I see the Father doing." He obviously had a much clearer view of that than any of us. We all - as Paul said - "see thru a glass dimly."
If I see that God is really calling someone home, beyond any doubt, I would let them go. But without that, I can and will not.
How do you really really know that God is calling someone home? If the machines are pumping blood and air in to a body, that alone makes it not God's will to take them? Or has God allowed them to go, but man, whether in medical arrogance, or mortal desire to not 'lose them', violated God's will by keeping them 'artificially'? It is far from impossible for man to 'dictate' God's will by making 'his own' decisions...
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/26/2008 5:48:35 PM
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stellaluna
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
1) If someone is diagnosed with a terminal illness, and chooses not to be treated, or only chooses to be treated in a certain way...would you not say they have the right do to that? If it was one of these non-believing family members you speak of, would you attempt to overpower them by seeking legal means to make their medical decisions for them?
In all likely hood I would have no legal standing to do so. I would be badgering those who did have the legal standing to sustain their life.
You would badger someone who did not want treatment to get treatment? Even if they didn't want it?
quote:
quote:
2) If someone was being kept alive artificially, you do realize that they have already passed, right? And whatever they are to meet in eternity has been met? No I do not. There is no scriptural link between "brain death" and what the bible would consider death. Since that concept is relatively new, there is NO WAY TO TELL if the soul and spirit are still in there or not.
Ah, now I see where you're coming from.
If the body cannot sustain life without a machine, keeping the machines on is only delaying an inevitable physical and spiritual death--should spiritual death not have occurred. There is nothing to be done for the person, even if they are not a believer.
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/27/2008 8:10:23 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
If the body cannot sustain life without a machine, keeping the machines on is only delaying an inevitable physical and spiritual death--should spiritual death not have occurred. There is nothing to be done for the person, even if they are not a believer. And if a hundred years from now they have the technology to revive that person and he/she can then have another chance to respond to the gospel?
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/27/2008 8:14:48 AM
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drmark
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And I thought we would all be raptured by then. 
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/27/2008 4:04:53 PM
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phosadaud
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Having worked in hospice before, I felt I needed to share. In today's society, we don't know much about death and dying so we generally have some misconceptions about what it is.
First, there is a difference between being terminal and dying. You can be terminal (meaning you have a condition that will result in death) but not yet be dying. Dying is actual the natural way the body shuts itself down. This process can take seconds or it can take a month or more. I've seen both ends of the spectrum. There are some very specific signs that this is happening - it is not a feeling or an emotion. It is physiological.
When a body is actually dying (not just someone who will eventually die), there are a number of physical changes that occur. One of these is the person will stop eating/drinking. This is actually a normal part of dying. The body is shutting itself down. You will find that in hospice situations, when someone is actually in the process of dying, shoving a feeding tube down the back of their throat or stabbing them with an IV (and when the body is shutting down, this is not a simply poke) is extremely uncomfortable and the reason that almost universally those who work hospice discourage folks from doing this to their loved ones. It may seem to be the "humane" thing to do, but it's not. This is very different from someone who is simply ill and may eventually die from that illness. I know some equate this with "starving" or "dehydrating" someone to death, but at this state in dying, that is not at all what is happening. The body and it's organs are shutting down. This is natural. I've cared for many folks who were dying and not hooked up to an IV or had a feeding tube and not one of them suffered some horrid death as a result. In fact, all of their deaths were very peaceful.
I remember caring for an elderly gentleman (in his 90s) whose family didn't want to let him go, even though his body was shutting down and ready to depart. They made the doctors and nurses insert a naso-gastric tube, IV and hook him up to all kinds of things. We on the staff just wanted to weep. He died anyway, but instead of dying in peace and comfort, he died in discomfort and probably pain. It was heartbreaking. The result was the same (he died), but the process could have been so much more comfortable for him. 
Because of these experiences, I firmly believe that there comes a point at which you need to say, it's time to let go and allow what is already happening (dying) to happen. Where that point is, is not something I think can easily be answered and for that reason, I would say that it should be left up to the individual and their families and we should respect that. I am not talking about someone committing suicide (doing something which ends their life), but rather knowing when to have peace over what God is already working in their body (the death of this temporary vessel) and allowing that to happen without fighting against it.
At some point, we have to trust God and know that these bodies were not made to last eternally. God has something better in store!
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/27/2008 4:30:19 PM
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stellaluna
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That was a very good post, Kristin. I have observed the same process in a family member and had she not had a DNR, I feel confident some relatives would have done what you described--feeding tube, IV, etc. I'm glad she had the foresight to strictly and legally lay out what she would have done in her last days.
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/28/2008 1:10:41 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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I really personally appreciate all who have posted here. It is good to see the varying perspectives and to think about them. I have discussed much of this with my husband, because reality says we must. I mentioned making out a will, but you know, some of of talk about it, but few of us make one, unless we are well-moneyed.
Again, thanks to all. I especially appreciate those who have had to deal with this stuff.
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/29/2008 1:22:05 AM
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cih92
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
1) If someone is diagnosed with a terminal illness, and chooses not to be treated, or only chooses to be treated in a certain way...would you not say they have the right do to that? If it was one of these non-believing family members you speak of, would you attempt to overpower them by seeking legal means to make their medical decisions for them?
In all likely hood I would have no legal standing to do so. I would be badgering those who did have the legal standing to sustain their life.
You would badger someone who did not want treatment to get treatment? Even if they didn't want it?
quote:
quote:
2) If someone was being kept alive artificially, you do realize that they have already passed, right? And whatever they are to meet in eternity has been met? No I do not. There is no scriptural link between "brain death" and what the bible would consider death. Since that concept is relatively new, there is NO WAY TO TELL if the soul and spirit are still in there or not.
Ah, now I see where you're coming from.
If the body cannot sustain life without a machine, keeping the machines on is only delaying an inevitable physical and spiritual death--should spiritual death not have occurred. There is nothing to be done for the person, even if they are not a believer.
How do you know when someone is in a situation where keeping the machines on is only delaying an inevitable physical and spiritual death?
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/29/2008 3:12:42 PM
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phosadaud
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Barring direct and miraculous intervention from God (which can happen by the way and would happen machine or no machine), there are physical measures to determine when the body is "done". For instance - if the person has no brain activity or the injuries or disease process is such that it in "incompatible" with life.
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I believe that no matter how terminal and ugly the disease, basic comfort measures ought to be taken. If someone is *truly* terminal, giving them food and water isn't going to keep them alive, nor is pain relief.