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RE: Is not desiring to have children morally wrong? - 9/2/2008 7:16:56 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
If anything we should be encouraging people NOT to have kids, just to avoid some sort of massive malthusian crisis.
Malthus was wrong.
Did you know that the great thinkers of ancient Greece worried that the world could not support much more than their current population?
It's amazing how wrong smart people can be. 
Malthus was actually not completely wrong. He was wrong on the number of people that present a crisis, but at some critical level there has to be a tipping point at which desease and famine combine to create rapid mortality. We see this in epedemiology studies - at some critical level of population density, disease transmission becomes very rapid and mortality increases exponentially.
The question isn't whether Malthus was wrong, but rather where does the law of diminishing returns come into play with respect to technology's ability to compensate for the damage created by excess density. That's the part he got wrong.
Live from Geekville,
BT
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Is not desiring to have children morally wrong? - 9/2/2008 7:31:31 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 458
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From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
my ultimate hero, while on the earth, didn't marry, didn't have children, ... loved children, and said this:
Note that he didn't marry. And the entire Scripture was, if you can't hack it don't marry.
Childlessness by itself is not sin, and I didn't see anyone on this thread at least say so. Those of us on the other side of the argument have simply said that if there is a "childless" calling, it is part and parcel with the "celibate worker for the Lord" calling.
100% Agreement.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Is not desiring to have children morally wrong? - 9/2/2008 7:32:29 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2473
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From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
my ultimate hero, while on the earth, didn't marry, didn't have children, ... loved children, and said this:
Note that he didn't marry. And the entire Scripture was, if you can't hack it don't marry.
Childlessness by itself is not sin, and I didn't see anyone on this thread at least say so. Those of us on the other side of the argument have simply said that if there is a "childless" calling, it is part and parcel with the "celibate worker for the Lord" calling.
100% Agreement.
But where is the Biblical basis for this?
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Is not desiring to have children morally wrong? - 9/2/2008 7:36:19 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 458
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phosadaud,
Situations where child bearing might kill the mom, or one or both are infertile, or some other health issue prevents it is one thing. Going out of ones way to avoid pregnancy at all when both are able, I find something wrong with that.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Is not desiring to have children morally wrong? - 9/2/2008 7:41:42 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 458
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solo_soprano22,
There is no one verse or passage or book that we get this from. It's the entirety of scripture. I can't find one situation where marriage and children don't go hand in hand. It is clear to me that God created marriage with children in mind. The situations where the woman was barren He made her able to get pregnant.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Is not desiring to have children morally wrong? - 9/2/2008 8:29:41 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3576
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I was afraid to rear a child, and I had good reasons for that fear. I also was hesitant to give birth, and I had good reasons for that as well. Yet I praise G-d for His sovereign wisdom, giving me two children anyway. He sure knows what He is doing. And my original fears ended up being groundless. Further, I am one of those who has no pain with labor.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Is not desiring to have children morally wrong? - 9/2/2008 10:22:17 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10529
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
phosadaud,
Situations where child bearing might kill the mom, or one or both are infertile, or some other health issue prevents it is one thing. Going out of ones way to avoid pregnancy at all when both are able, I find something wrong with that.
First, do you understand that being physically able, does not mean emotionally, psychologically and spiritually able?
Second, who are you to decide that for another couple? Who are you to decide what is an "acceptable reason" and "not acceptable"? Where do you draw the line?
Who are you to decide what's ok and what's not ok in their own hearts? You don't know their heart. God does. That's why I posted Romans 14. It's not up to you to judge their hearts. That's God's job.
I have also found the older I get, that if something isn't condemned in Scripture, I need to be very, very, very careful that I don't "put words in God's mouth". If God calls a married couple to trust Him by not having children (even when they can) and I condemn them because I "don't get it", I am in terrible error. Terrible error - and IMHO - sin. That's why I'd rather leave that stuff to God.
Speaking for myself alone: I want children. I can't have them now because I am single, but I pray that God blesses me someday with kiddos. If not, I will trust God in that as well. That doesn't mean that the way God wired me is the way He wired everyone.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: Is not desiring to have children morally wrong? - 9/2/2008 11:09:11 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 458
Joined: 5/24/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
phosadaud,
Situations where child bearing might kill the mom, or one or both are infertile, or some other health issue prevents it is one thing. Going out of ones way to avoid pregnancy at all when both are able, I find something wrong with that.
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
First, do you understand that being physically able, does not mean emotionally, psychologically and spiritually able?
Second, who are you to decide that for another couple? Who are you to decide what is an "acceptable reason" and "not acceptable"? Where do you draw the line?
Who are you to decide what's ok and what's not ok in their own hearts? You don't know their heart. God does. That's why I posted Romans 14. It's not up to you to judge their hearts. That's God's job.
I have also found the older I get, that if something isn't condemned in Scripture, I need to be very, very, very careful that I don't "put words in God's mouth". If God calls a married couple to trust Him by not having children (even when they can) and I condemn them because I "don't get it", I am in terrible error. Terrible error - and IMHO - sin. That's why I'd rather leave that stuff to God.
Speaking for myself alone: I want children. I can't have them now because I am single, but I pray that God blesses me someday with kiddos. If not, I will trust God in that as well. That doesn't mean that the way God wired me is the way He wired everyone.
Yes I do understand being physically able doesn't mean emotionally, psychologically or spiritually able. However I would guess that most people don't go to God and pray asking if they are emotionally, psychologically or spiritually able. They just don't want to.
I never said I wanted to decide for another couple. However those who just don't want to should search themselves to see why that is.
Most if not all people that I know who have remained childless isn't because God told them so, they have said it themselves that they hate kids. That to me is awful and yes such a person should never have kids unless God softens his/her heart.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Is not desiring to have children morally wrong? - 9/2/2008 11:51:32 PM
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PaleHawkWoman
Posts: 476
Joined: 7/14/2005
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I have known christians who had children and were not good parents, and were in fact neglectful and even abusive. Like I said earlier, not everyone is cut out to be a parent, and no one should be forced to become a parent if they do not wish to be so. No one should be denied the right to marry simply because they do not wish to have children.
Married couples who go into missions work have an advantage in that
1. they are less likely to commit sexual sin.
2. a man in the company of a woman is seen as less likely to be a threat
by the people they are attempting to minister to.
3. In many cultures it would be taboo for a man to minister or counsel a
woman or girl, so the wife would be needed here.
4. Many missions locales are 3rd world countries with minimal or absent
infrastuctures(schools, roads, hospitals and medical staff) and
unstable social/political entities. The environment would be dangerous
for a child or children to be in.
5. Most missionaries are not paid a living wage and have extreme
difficulty supporting themselves let alone children.
6. The typical missions is for 1 yr- 18 mos. Would it be prudent to leave
one's children to be raised by others for that long? Would it be okay
to expect others to raise one's children when one cannot afford to pay
room and board for them?
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RE: Is not desiring to have children morally wrong? - 9/3/2008 3:31:21 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10529
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
phosadaud,
Situations where child bearing might kill the mom, or one or both are infertile, or some other health issue prevents it is one thing. Going out of ones way to avoid pregnancy at all when both are able, I find something wrong with that.
quote:
I never said I wanted to decide for another couple. However those who just don't want to should search themselves to see why that is.
But you said there is something wrong with not having a family if you can, so you are deciding for another couple what is right for them.
Yes, there are wrong reasons to not have kids, just as there are wrong reasons to have kids. That doesn't mean that it's always wrong to not have kids when you can. In addition, it does not follow to say that if someone decides not to have children, that means they didn't seek the Lord (or if someone has a bunch of kids that means they DID seek the Lord). I'm sure there are plenty of folks who have made this decision who made it for the wrong reasons - and they will stand before God for that just as the person who had children for the wrong reasons will stand before God for that.
I'll be honest, it was until more recent years that I even realized that some folks literally choose not to have kids. It's kind of a foreign concept to me. I always assumed that if a couple didn't have kids, it was because they couldn't. I've walked beside friends who were torn apart by their barrenness and I know the extreme pain and anguish they felt in being judged because people assumed they needed to "get on the ball" and start a family not knowing the years they had spent trying. Then I started meeting folks who for various reasons had decided not to and I knew them well enough to know that it was a difficult decision and one they took with much care and much love. Who am I to judge that?
The fact is: Whether a couple is wanting to get pregnant or not wanting to get pregnant --> ALL of that should be taken to the Lord.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: Is not desiring to have children morally wrong? - 9/5/2008 7:04:49 PM
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Thessa
Posts: 811
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
Here's what I'm getting at...but I was trying not to be so blunt.
As a Christian, if you don't desire children, then is that a sin? If so... where does the Bible say that we are supposed to desire children if we are Christians?
He called upon Eve and Adam to 'be fruitful and multiply' but that may have meant only because they were to be the ones to populate the earth...so no i wouldnt say there are any biblical verses to support not having children would be a sin. But i could be wrong...
_____________________________
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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RE: Is not desiring to have children morally wrong? - 9/5/2008 7:44:36 PM
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Focusing
Posts: 5989
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I have always advised those who do not have a desire to have children to not have children. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with it. Some people just don't want them.
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There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven
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RE: Is not desiring to have children morally wrong? - 9/5/2008 8:40:32 PM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
Actually, the entire Scripture is simply saying that it is better not to marry at all than to marry then divorce. It is teaching on the seriousness of divorce, not the necessity of having kids.........................................................
Are you saying that Scripture says they must now become celibate? I don't read that.
In Mt 19, isn't Jesus referring to the Essenes
I have no 'special' vow of celibacy, no anxiety about being single, no worries about procreating, and I live my life for Jesus Christ.
no paradoxes here!!!
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RE: Is not desiring to have children morally wrong? - 9/5/2008 8:46:55 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10529
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
Actually, the entire Scripture is simply saying that it is better not to marry at all than to marry then divorce. It is teaching on the seriousness of divorce, not the necessity of having kids.........................................................
Are you saying that Scripture says they must now become celibate? I don't read that.
In Mt 19, isn't Jesus referring to the Essenes
I have no 'special' vow of celibacy, no anxiety about being single, no worries about procreating, and I live my life for Jesus Christ.
no paradoxes here!!!
I'm not following what you are saying here. Can you elaborate please?
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: Is not desiring to have children morally wrong? - 9/5/2008 10:09:39 PM
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makarizo
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not much of an elaboration, But, if one divorces not having any children, but desires to have children.....to accomplish this, they would have to ignore, and forsake this particular teaching of Jesus - right?
is this a situation where it is morally wrong to desire to have children?
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RE: Is not desiring to have children morally wrong? - 9/5/2008 10:20:34 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10529
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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I think you misunderstand my post. The last sentence you quoted is not connected to the first part of my post you quoted. I'll copy the entire post so folks don't misunderstand what I was trying to say (or who I was responding to).
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
my ultimate hero, while on the earth, didn't marry, didn't have children, ... loved children, and said this:
Note that he didn't marry. And the entire Scripture was, if you can't hack it don't marry.
Childlessness by itself is not sin, and I didn't see anyone on this thread at least say so. Those of us on the other side of the argument have simply said that if there is a "childless" calling, it is part and parcel with the "celibate worker for the Lord" calling.
Actually, the entire Scripture has nothing to do with children but is simply saying that it is better not to marry at all than to marry then divorce. It is teaching on the seriousness of divorce, not the necessity of having kids.
And there is nothing in Scripture that says the only reason for not having kids is you are single or you are barren. Nada. I think we need to be very careful not to add to God's Word and make what God has called US to into what God has called EVERYONE to.
Children should only be created in the confines of a marriage relationship is not the same thing as a marriage should always strive to have children.
What of people who are severely disabled or who have a disease which doesn't preclude them from having kids, but which would preclude them from caring for the child or would be passed to the child and is deadly? Or having a child would mean death or harm to mom and bringing a child into the world that could not be cared for? I know folks in this very boat who have beautiful, God honoring marriages, but who chose, for the best interest of family to not have children. Are you saying they must remain single? And what happens if they were already married when such a condition occurred? Or the man is diagnosed with something terminal and chooses not to have babies because he will be gone and unable to provide for them? Are you saying that Scripture says they must now become celibate? I don't read that.
My last sentence was not referring to folks who had divorced but rather folks who were still married but for whatever reason should not have kids.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: Is not desiring to have children morally wrong? - 9/8/2008 3:57:17 PM
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moon_mouse
Posts: 378
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Hi, Solo. Sorry to be joining this conversation so late, but I've been away from my computer for a couple of weeks.
I'm childless by choice, and I came to that decision with a lot of thinking and prayer. It started from a time when I was in college and first dating seriously and thinking about marriage and children. I realized that I had absolutely no innate desire for children. It wasn't that I wanted to set children aside for my career or for more money or time for myself (  ). I also didn't have any "issues" with my parents or the way I was raised (double ). I just had zero attraction to the idea of being a mother. I started to look at Scripture to see if there was a command to be a parent, if you married.
There are 2 commands in the Bible to "be fruitful", where fruitful specifically means having children, Adam and Eve, and Noah. In both cases, this is a direct command to specific people for the purpose of subduing creation. While opinions differ on overpopulation, and some industrialized nations are losing native born population, we certainly aren't in grave danger of losing our place on the earth to spreading nature, LOL! In all other cases, "fruitfulness" commands are spiritual, not procreative.
Bareness in the Bible is sometimes called a curse, and in several incidences God intervened to give a couple a child. And, the default assumption seems to be having children. This makes sense if you consider the position of women in society and the position of Israel in the ancient world. Children were not just blessings in and of themselves, but also a valuable resource. God's provision of that resource was just as important then as the provision of a job, or rent money, or medical care would be today.
Children are also called blessings in and of themselves, and they are clearly something to be prayerfully considered by every Christian. However, not every blessing is commanded to be desired by every Christian. Not every Christian desires the blessing of marriage, or ministry, or the opportunity for martyrdom.
So, given that there is no direct command to procreate, if an individual doesn't desire children and seeks God's will and hears no clear leading to have children, it doesn't seem to make much sense to do so simply to fit into some non-Scripturally based stereotype of what a Christian "should" want.
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RE: Is not desiring to have children morally wrong? - 9/8/2008 10:59:30 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3576
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
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I must just remember and count my blessings.
I did not initially want to have children, because I was afraid beyond measure of what kind of mother I would be, and because I believed there were enough unwanted children in the world already. But G-d had other plans for me and gave me the two best gifts he could have given me.
My oldest will be 37 in days, and what a wondrous gift she was. She never moved throughout the whole pregnancy, so I was so scared. Mother had always told me my children would make me pay for what I did to her, whatever that was, so I was sure she was either dead or horribly sick. But the birth was easy beyond belief, and there she lay in that little glass bassinet, seemingly looking at me. Her toes and fingers already counted, she was the prettiest baby I ever have seen before or since. We just quietly looked at each other as the team finished their work. If she ever "paid" me for anything, then I must have been the best child on earth.
Then my son came along, the image of his father to this day. He was another incredibly easy drugless birth, and I had grown enough to stand up to the hospital and keep him with me in my hospital room. He was the cutest little guy! One of the women said she could not wait to meet my husband, because "he must be full-blooded Eskimo." That little cutie really looked like he was Eskimo then, but he's not, and my husband was Swedish and German. What a joy they were at each stage of life and now, as the parents of my grandchildren.
What I wanted would have been disaster. I am so glad that my G-d took the reigns and gave me what he knew I needed.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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