Here's what God does

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Carico -> Here's what God does (8/23/2008 10:03:50 AM)
1) He creates and destroys 2) He leads us out of temptation 3) He delivers us from evil 5) He opens the eyes of the blind 6) he blinds those who claim to see 7) He saves us 8) He keeps us strong to the end 9) He punishes the wicked 10) He determines our steps (Pr. 16:9, Jeremiah 23:1) 11) He determines where we will live (Acts 17:26) 12) He comforts 13) He allows Satan to work havoc on the earth 14) He establishes who will be earthly authorities 15) He gives us faith 16) He chose the elect before we were born 17) He formed us in the womb 18) He changes hearts and minds 19) He causes us to follow His decrees and obey His laws (Ez. 36:27) 20) And everything else. So what is there that man does on his own? Nothing. Not a thing. But because of human pride, human "reasoning" says; "Hey, I myself do things in the world". That's because "human wisdom" is about me. Spiritual wisdom is about God. And that's why as 1 Corinthians 2:14 says, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned." So God's sovereignty is foolishness to those without the indwelling Holy Spirit. Only born again Christians understand God's sovereignty and will never try to take what is God's and claim it for ourselves. So if you claim to love Jesus, then remember His words in John 5:19, "The Son can do nothing by himself." And if our Lord can't, then we certainly can't.[;)]

MrFribbles -> RE: Here's what God does (8/23/2008 11:49:58 AM)
If we do nothing on our own, then why are we held accountable for our actions?

evry1needsgod -> RE: Here's what God does (8/24/2008 2:41:07 AM)
Carico, look up the word "choice" and all of it's tenses in the KJV Bible, and tell me how many hits you get. God's Word is pointless if God forces us to do everything He wishes. What is the point of even creating us in the first place? To claim to everyone (who did not exist before He created them) how powerful He is, to go on a ego trip to show all things how amazing He is and how worthless everything else is? This is hardly the God that He claims to be, my friend. And I know one thing...this is not the god I serve, but perhaps it is the one you do. Personally, I worship a God who asks us to "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve." He gives you the choice to serve Him or man, and He gave you the capability of choosing either one. Enjoy it and thank God for it!

Carico -> RE: Here's what God does (8/24/2008 9:03:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrFribbles If we do nothing on our own, then why are we held accountable for our actions? Because: A) we were born guilty and we have to deal with it just as a person with a birth defect has to deal with his disability. B) Because we have knowledge of God's law that we sin. C) Because no one knows if he is being chosen so we are completely responsible for our actions, attitudes and beliefs.

Carico -> RE: Here's what God does (8/24/2008 9:05:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod Carico, look up the word "choice" and all of it's tenses in the KJV Bible, and tell me how many hits you get. God's Word is pointless if God forces us to do everything He wishes. What is the point of even creating us in the first place? To claim to everyone (who did not exist before He created them) how powerful He is, to go on a ego trip to show all things how amazing He is and how worthless everything else is? This is hardly the God that He claims to be, my friend. And I know one thing...this is not the god I serve, but perhaps it is the one you do. Personally, I worship a God who asks us to "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve." He gives you the choice to serve Him or man, and He gave you the capability of choosing either one. Enjoy it and thank God for it! So you're sayoing that God does a lot less than what I said in my OP. Is that correct? [sm=eek.gif] If so, then which things should we take off that list and claim for ourselves? Sorry friend, but all you have to do is know by whose power we are "choosing" anything. It's either by Satan's or by God's. And that's why the bible says that our struggle is not against flesh and blood but God against Satan. So people who believe in free will can't at the same time believe that Satan deceives. [;)] And the bible is about God's glory not ours. It's about what His power can do in us, not how righteous and wonderful man can be. So it appears that what's pointless to you is not giving man the credit for God's work in him. Is that correct?

evry1needsgod -> RE: Here's what God does (8/24/2008 1:01:10 PM)
quote: And that's why the bible says that our struggle is not against flesh and blood but God against Satan. Fisrt off, how could OUR struggle be God vs Satan? That would be HIS struggle, not ours! This makes no sense. Regardless, you are wrong. God does not struggle against Satan my friend, and that is not how the verse goes. "Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Our struggle is exactly that - OURS! Yes, we will not prevail against Satan without God's power, but He does not force you to make the right choice! In the next verse, it commands us to take up the whole armor of God "that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand." Just thank God that He will streghten you to make the right choice, to win the battle, to fight the good fight. He asks YOU to choose Him, or choose death. It is YOUR choice, not His! What would even be the point of the verse (or the Bible for that matter) if He forces those whom He pleases to choose Him??? Explain that one! quote: So people who believe in free will can't at the same time believe that Satan deceives. No, it's the other way around. People who don't believe in free-will can't at the same time believe Satan decieves. Why? Because God is forcing Satan to make the choice to decieve us. Which means God created sin. Which means God forces Satan to tempt us, which also means God temps us, which He promises us He can not do! Saying man has no choice is saying God is a LIAR! If you want to serve a god who lies to mankind, be my guest! quote: And the bible is about God's glory not ours. The Bible is about making mankind accountable for THEIR choices, not God's forceful hand in our lives. He forces no one to choose Him. He has given you that choice. He did not create us as robots! Find that one in Scripture. He created Adam and Eve with a choice between choosing self, or choosing Him. He did not force them to make the wrong choice. Give me a break.

evry1needsgod -> RE: Here's what God does (8/24/2008 1:07:35 PM)
quote: A) we were born guilty and we have to deal with it just as a person with a birth defect has to deal with his disability. Did you visit the "Sin Nature" thread that was up a few weeks ago? I don't believe you posted, but perhaps you lurked. I will ask you a question I asked an individual like yourself whom I was debating with. I must have asked it half a dozen times, and he refused to answer the question, and I know why. He knew the answer, and he did not like the answer, because he knew where it led. He knew it completely destroyed his self-willed (no pun intended) submission/humility in an area God does not require. He eventually left the thread, never to return, to avoid having to answer the question. But, you are a different individual, and I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Here is the question, with another added. 1. Are there things God CAN NOT do? 2. Are there things God WILL NOT do?

Carico -> RE: Here's what God does (8/24/2008 2:36:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod quote: And that's why the bible says that our struggle is not against flesh and blood but God against Satan. Fisrt off, how could OUR struggle be God vs Satan? That would be HIS struggle, not ours! This makes no sense. Regardless, you are wrong. God does not struggle against Satan my friend, and that is not how the verse goes. "Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Our struggle is exactly that - OURS! Yes, we will not prevail against Satan without God's power, but He does not force you to make the right choice! In the next verse, it commands us to take up the whole armor of God "that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand." Just thank God that He will streghten you to make the right choice, to win the battle, to fight the good fight. He asks YOU to choose Him, or choose death. It is YOUR choice, not His! What would even be the point of the verse (or the Bible for that matter) if He forces those whom He pleases to choose Him??? Explain that one! quote: So people who believe in free will can't at the same time believe that Satan deceives. No, it's the other way around. People who don't believe in free-will can't at the same time believe Satan decieves. Why? Because God is forcing Satan to make the choice to decieve us. Which means God created sin. Which means God forces Satan to tempt us, which also means God temps us, which He promises us He can not do! Saying man has no choice is saying God is a LIAR! If you want to serve a god who lies to mankind, be my guest! quote: And the bible is about God's glory not ours. The Bible is about making mankind accountable for THEIR choices, not God's forceful hand in our lives. He forces no one to choose Him. He has given you that choice. He did not create us as robots! Find that one in Scripture. He created Adam and Eve with a choice between choosing self, or choosing Him. He did not force them to make the wrong choice. Give me a break. Don't get mad at me, I didn't write the bible. God did. And here's what He says in Eph. 6;12, "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, the authorties, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." It's all right there. So instead of changing the words in that verse or claiming they're untrue, you need to form an interpretation that doesn't contradict that verse or any other verse. There what "our" struggle means, is "the struggle inside of us. that's why "The battle belongs to the Lord", not to us. Only Jesus has victory over Satan, not man. So what part of your nature chose God? Your sinful nature? [sm=rollingeyes.gif]Did you choose to be born? Did you choose the family in which you were born? Did you knit yourself in the womb? Did you choose yourself before the creation of the world? Did you choose for Satan to rule the earth? Did you choose the time when you were born? Did you choose the body in which you were created? Did you choose the circumstances that happened to you as a child? Do you choose the circumstances in the world? NO. So you are 100% wrong. The bible is about God, not man. we don't worship man, we worship God. "God hardens whom he wants to harden." Since you don't believe that, then you don't believe that God is sovereign.

Carico -> RE: Here's what God does (8/24/2008 2:47:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod quote: A) we were born guilty and we have to deal with it just as a person with a birth defect has to deal with his disability. Did you visit the "Sin Nature" thread that was up a few weeks ago? I don't believe you posted, but perhaps you lurked. I will ask you a question I asked an individual like yourself whom I was debating with. I must have asked it half a dozen times, and he refused to answer the question, and I know why. He knew the answer, and he did not like the answer, because he knew where it led. He knew it completely destroyed his self-willed (no pun intended) submission/humility in an area God does not require. He eventually left the thread, never to return, to avoid having to answer the question. But, you are a different individual, and I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Here is the question, with another added. 1. Are there things God CAN NOT do? 2. Are there things God WILL NOT do? God Himself cannot lie. He also cannot commit evil Himself which is why He allows Satan to do that. So you are confusing God with Satan.

Carico -> RE: Here's what God does (8/24/2008 2:54:32 PM)
Here's the bible according to every1needsgod: The bible is about me and how good I am for making the right choice to follow God. Those other poor slobs who didn't choose God simply aren't as good as I am. They'll pay for their idiocy. But I wont. So God is lucky to have people like me around. When I meet him, I bet he'll be so proud of me! I know that the bible says that faith is a gift from God so that no one can boast. But the bible is simply wrong and I'm right. I have a right to boast because of my righteousness. God doesn't harden anyone, those people are just more wicked than I am. Boy, I'm such a good person, that it can't get any better than this. If I'm tempted to sin, I don't turn to the cross because I have the free will to choose not to sin on my own. So there's no one to thank but myself for my goodness. [:)]

TheBibleTRUTH -> RE: Here's what God does (8/24/2008 3:41:19 PM)
There is a few things I want to state: 1) God cannot lie 2) He is incapable of doing evil 3) Once you get forgiven God is incapable of remembering your sins 4) He cannot tempt us 5) He cannot control us Just like humans cannot fly, because it's not in our nature, God cannot do evil. God's very nature is that of healing, light, love, giving, peace, etc... he is incapable of doing things that are not in his nature. When we choose not to eat cookies, we can still and often do eat cookies. If God decides that he cannot do evil, then he cannot do evil. ANY negative thing does not come from God. ----------------- We have free will. Look when it says we were chosen before the world began it means that he KNEW we would believe. If you were rolling two dice, and then God told you that you were going to roll a 6, he didn't grab the dice and force you to roll a six. Because of his foreknowledge he knew before hand that you would roll a 6. It's the same thing with how we were preplanned. God doesn't force anyone to do anything ever, he didn't force you to believe, he simply knew that you would. He saw your heart before the beginning of time, and because there are certain qualities than make people believers, he knew that you had those qualities and that you would believe. That's what it means to be preplanned or preordained. Negatives come from two things: 1) The weakness of our flesh. 2) The devil and his abilities in the World that were given to him by Adam. ----- BUT ----- We are never to focus on those things at all. Philippians 4:8 8) Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. The more you think about evil, and get into it, the worse off you are. You need to focus on the positives and the things of God. You need to think about evil as little as possible. It unfortunately has to be brought up sometimes, because we cannot be ignorant of his devices and a lack of knowledge destroys Christians. But you learn it, put it in the back of your mind, and focus on the great love of God. Lastly, don't criticize people. People can only go by what they learned and it's very unloving to criticize and point out peoples mistakes. Just love them and teach them what God puts on your heart. God bless you in the wonderful name of Jesus Christ

Carico -> RE: Here's what God does (8/24/2008 3:49:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheBibleTRUTH There is a few things I want to state: 1) God cannot lie 2) He is incapable of doing evil 3) Once you get forgiven God is incapable of remembering your sins 4) He cannot tempt us 5) He cannot control us Just like humans cannot fly, because it's not in our nature, God cannot do evil. God's very nature is that of healing, light, love, giving, peace, etc... he is incapable of doing things that are not in his nature. When we choose not to eat cookies, we can still and often do eat cookies. If God decides that he cannot do evil, then he cannot do evil. ANY negative thing does not come from God. ----------------- We have free will. Look when it says we were chosen before the world began it means that he KNEW we would believe. If you were rolling two dice, and then God told you that you were going to roll a 6, he didn't grab the dice and force you to roll a six. Because of his foreknowledge he knew before hand that you would roll a 6. It's the same thing with how we were preplanned. God doesn't force anyone to do anything ever, he didn't force you to believe, he simply knew that you would. He saw your heart before the beginning of time, and because there are certain qualities than make people believers, he knew that you had those qualities and that you would believe. That's what it means to be preplanned or preordained. Negatives come from two things: 1) The weakness of our flesh. 2) The devil and his abilities in the World that were given to him by Adam. ----- BUT ----- We are never to focus on those things at all. Philippians 4:8 8) Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. The more you think about evil, and get into it, the worse off you are. You need to focus on the positives and the things of God. You need to think about evil as little as possible. It unfortunately has to be brought up sometimes, because we cannot be ignorant of his devices and a lack of knowledge destroys Christians. But you learn it, put it in the back of your mind, and focus on the great love of God. Lastly, don't criticize people. People can only go by what they learned and it's very unloving to criticize and point out peoples mistakes. Just love them and teach them what God puts on your heart. God bless you in the wonderful name of Jesus Christ Sorry, but God is capable of more than just foreknowledge. he is OMNIPOTENT as well as omniscient. The best way to describe it is the analogy of parents and children. Parents create an environment in which their children "feel free" to make their own choices, when in reality the parents are creating the envorinment for their children to do so. The parent can change the child's options any time he wants to and so does God. Otherwise, God wouldn't be in control of anything, much less our lives. But he is the supreme ruler of the universe, so He is. So if the parent grounds the child, the child's "options" decrease. He will simply respond to his least stressful option. If the pain of being grounded is greater in him than the pain of disobeying his parents, he will obey his parents. But if the pain of obeying his parents is stronger than the pain of being grounded, he will disobey his parents. "A man is a slave to whatever has mastered him." As Romans 6:15-23 tells us, we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. A slave has no free choice or he wouldn't be a slave.[sm=icon_smile.gif] That's why the first step in AA is to acknowledge that we are powerless over our addiction (sins) and only God can restore us to health. No one can choose to get out of slavery of any kind. Only Jesus can free us so that we become slaves to righteousness. But most people don't want to be ruled by a higher power any more than children want to be controlled by their parents. Humans like to think they run the universe just like children like to believe they are making their own choices. That's called rebelliousness and it comes from the sinful nature. But it isn't until children grow up that they look back and see that their parents were in control the whole time. And it's the same with born again Christians. Once we receive the Spirit, we realize that God was in control of our lives the whole time. [;)] If you don't see yourself as a slave, then you have not acknowledged your master.

MrFribbles -> RE: Here's what God does (8/24/2008 4:07:42 PM)
quote: A) we were born guilty and we have to deal with it just as a person with a birth defect has to deal with his disability. If God does everything, God made that happen, directly. How can we be held accountable for that? quote: Because we have knowledge of God's law that we sin. But we don't do anything on our own. God does everything, right? So any knowledge you claim we have, we don't really have - we do nothing, according to you, and having knowledge is something. quote: Because no one knows if he is being chosen so we are completely responsible for our actions, attitudes and beliefs. It shouldn't matter if we know we're being chosen or not. From your original post, it seems that you believe everyone is chosen for something. You said directly that we, as people, do nothing. God does everything. So our actions, attitudes and beliefs are only what God is acting out through us, no matter we're "chosen," as you put it. I simply fail to see how you can rationally ascribe to statements such as quote: 20) And everything else. and quote: So what is there that man does on his own? Nothing. Not a thing.

TheBibleTRUTH -> RE: Here's what God does (8/24/2008 4:12:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Carico Sorry, but God is capable of more than just foreknowledge. he is OMNIPOTENT as well as omniscient. The best way to describe it is the analogy of parents and children. Parents create an environment in which their children "feel free" to make their own choices, when in reality the parents are creating the envorinment for their children to do so. The parent can change the child's options any time he wants to and so does God. Otherwise, God wouldn't be in control of anything, much less our lives. But he is the supreme ruler of the universe, so He is. So if the parent grounds the child, the child's "options" decrease. He will simply respond to his least stressful option. If the pain of being grounded is greater in him than the pain of disobeying his parents, he will obey his parents. But if the pain of obeying his parents is stronger than the pain of being grounded, he will disobey his parents. "A man is a slave to whatever has mastered him." As Romans 6:15-23 tells us, we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. A slave has no free choice or he wouldn't be a slave.[sm=icon_smile.gif] That's why the first step in AA is to acknowledge that we are powerless over our addiction (sins) and only God can restore us to health. No one can choose to get out of slavery of any kind. Only Jesus can free us so that we become slaves to righteousness. But most people don't want to be ruled by a higher power any more than children want to be controlled by their parents. Humans like to think they run the universe just like children like to believe they are making their own choices. That's called rebelliousness and it comes from the sinful nature. But it isn't until children grow up that they look back and see that their parents were in control the whole time. And it's the same with born again Christians. Once we receive the Spirit, we realize that God was in control of our lives the whole time. [;)] If you don't see yourself as a slave, then you have not acknowledged your master. God does have omnipotence and he does have control over the universe. God's power is undeniable. But he has never forced anyone to believe or anything of the sort. That is not Biblical whatsoever. We have free will and we can do whatever we want. God knew that Judas would betray him, yet Christ taught and loved him anyway. He didn't force Judas to believe nor did he force him to betray Christ. If God could force people to believe then everyone would get born again. -------------------------- I'm more than a slave to God. I'm his son. The people in the old testament were called servants and had to work to gain salvation. But, because of what Christ did for us, we are now capable of being sons in God's loving family. Now to be a good son I sell out to God's word, and I do my best to do whatever he asks me to do. God never wanted people to be servants under the bondage of works to try and earn God's love. It's impossible to earn God's grace and love. It's a gift so good that it can only be free. You have to be simple, like a child, to fully grasp what God has done for us. We are his sons and he will do anything for us. God's ultimate plan for the Earth was to be a father and to have a family. God never once forced anyone to be apart of his family. It's our decision and he just knows who will and who won't. It's as simple as that.

evry1needsgod -> RE: Here's what God does (8/24/2008 4:29:52 PM)
quote: Did you choose to be born? Did you choose the family in which you were born? Did you knit yourself in the womb? Did you choose yourself before the creation of the world? Did you choose for Satan to rule the earth? Did you choose the time when you were born? Did you choose the body in which you were created? Did you choose the circumstances that happened to you as a child? Do you choose the circumstances in the world? NO. Never have I stated we have the capability of choosing every aspect in which our lives are effected. BUT, one aspect that God HAS given us the capability of choosing is whether to serve Him or not! To do evil or good. To make the right choice, or the wrong choice. How is this NOT Biblical????? Time after time He asks us to CHOOSE. How could He ask us to choose, and not give us the capability of making that choice?!?! [sm=sadquestion.gif] That would go against His nature, which He has promised to be fair, loving, and a righteous judge. How is one accountable for their actions when they have no capability of doing otherwise? God CAN NOT contradict His Nature, or the promises/covenants He has made with mankind. Forcing us to do a certain thing, without any possibility of choosing otherwise, would be in direct opposition to who God promised mankind He would be! quote: So you are 100% wrong. The bible is about God, not man. Wrong again. The Bible was written for man. Not for God's ego!!! quote: we don't worship man, we worship God. Where have I stated this??? You put words in my mouth that do not exist. You make the wrong jump when you conclude that if man has a free-will, they worship man. That is not true. quote: "God hardens whom he wants to harden." Since you don't believe that, then you don't believe that God is sovereign. No, I completely believe that verse, and every word of it. You have simply misinterpreted that verse. You assumed that when God hardens an individual (in this case Pharaoh), there was still a possibility of Pharaoh softening his heart, and therefore God took away his free-will. THAT, my friend, is NOT in Scripture. Who's to say Pharaoh would have changed? Perhaps God was simply leaving Pharaoh to his already hardened state? You should read a bit more, study that passage, even read a few commentaries on that verse. You might learn a thing or two, if you yourself are not hardened to this preconceived notion that you are a robot.

evry1needsgod -> RE: Here's what God does (8/24/2008 4:40:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Carico Here's the bible according to every1needsgod: The bible is about me and how good I am for making the right choice to follow God. Those other poor slobs who didn't choose God simply aren't as good as I am. They'll pay for their idiocy. But I wont. So God is lucky to have people like me around. When I meet him, I bet he'll be so proud of me! I know that the bible says that faith is a gift from God so that no one can boast. But the bible is simply wrong and I'm right. I have a right to boast because of my righteousness. God doesn't harden anyone, those people are just more wicked than I am. Boy, I'm such a good person, that it can't get any better than this. If I'm tempted to sin, I don't turn to the cross because I have the free will to choose not to sin on my own. So there's no one to thank but myself for my goodness. [:)] Carico, you have crossed the line. I have talked to you about this subject in only a couple point, and you go completely off on me. I have not said ANY of this!!! I can tell you have an almost HATE for people who believe other than you. As soon as I begin to debate my position, believing I indeed have a free-will, you accuse me of being self-righteous, better than God, omnipotent, perfect, sanctimonious, and arrogant towards my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! You need to get a grip on reality here. I'm here to debate the issue. Enough personal attacks on my Salvation!!! Never did I say man was good. Never have I claimed I am better than the next person. Never have I stated you can work your way to Heaven. Never have I given myself the right to boast because of my righteousness, because they are as filthy rags! Never did I say God does not harden anyone. No one in more wicked than I am. Never did I claim I was a good person. When I am tempted, I ALWAYS turn to Christ to give me streghth to make the right choice. Never have I stated I do that on my own! And never have I stated that I thank no one but myself. I am completely indebted to my Lord ans Savior Jesus Christ for working a miracle in my heart. I asked for it, and He changed me. I did not change myself, nor have I claimed that is possible!!!!! There. Before you reply, relax and take some blood-pressure medicine.

evry1needsgod -> RE: Here's what God does (8/24/2008 4:41:56 PM)
quote: God Himself cannot lie. He also cannot commit evil Himself which is why He allows Satan to do that. Great! You are making progress. Has God promised to be a fair and righteous Judge?

Thessa -> RE: Here's what God does (8/24/2008 4:41:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Carico 1) He creates and destroys 2) He leads us out of temptation 3) He delivers us from evil 5) He opens the eyes of the blind 6) he blinds those who claim to see 7) He saves us 8) He keeps us strong to the end 9) He punishes the wicked 10) He determines our steps (Pr. 16:9, Jeremiah 23:1) 11) He determines where we will live (Acts 17:26) 12) He comforts 13) He allows Satan to work havoc on the earth 14) He establishes who will be earthly authorities 15) He gives us faith 16) He chose the elect before we were born 17) He formed us in the womb 18) He changes hearts and minds 19) He causes us to follow His decrees and obey His laws (Ez. 36:27) 20) And everything else. So what is there that man does on his own? Nothing. Not a thing. But because of human pride, human "reasoning" says; "Hey, I myself do things in the world". That's because "human wisdom" is about me. Spiritual wisdom is about God. And that's why as 1 Corinthians 2:14 says, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned." So God's sovereignty is foolishness to those without the indwelling Holy Spirit. Only born again Christians understand God's sovereignty and will never try to take what is God's and claim it for ourselves. So if you claim to love Jesus, then remember His words in John 5:19, "The Son can do nothing by himself." And if our Lord can't, then we certainly can't.[;)] I would love to know the actual point of posting this.

evry1needsgod -> RE: Here's what God does (8/24/2008 4:55:46 PM)
quote: That's why the first step in AA is to acknowledge that we are powerless over our addiction (sins) and only God can restore us to health. No one can choose to get out of slavery of any kind. Only Jesus can free us so that we become slaves to righteousness. No one here so far is claiming they can clean themselves, and work their way to earn eternal life. Stop making that jump. It is as simple as this. I am a 5 year old kid, and it's Christmas. There is a present (metaphorically Salvation) perched in the Christmas tree. I am obviously short, due to my age (metaphorically Sin) and can not reach the present. My father (metaphorically Jesus) walks to the tree, and offers me the gift. I have one of two choices. Either take it, or leave it. I can ask my father to get it for me, or I can leave myself to my sin, hoping one day I will grow tall enough to reach that gift on my own. However, my father tells me that I will never grow tall enough, and the only way to receive this gift is to rely solely on his power to retrieve it. BUT, he quickly warns me that unless I ask Him for that gift, he will leave me to my stubbornness! You are correct that man lacks the power to save himself, as much as I lack the hight to reach the gift. BUT, what man DOES have, which was given to us by God establish at the garden of Eden is a CHOICE! Only when we ask for Salvation will Jesus make within us a new creature. But if we do not want it, He will leave us to our hardened hearts. God does not save whom He wants, and destroys whom He pleases. He holds us accountable for our actions (aka CHOICES), and if we do not CHOOSE to ask Jesus to save us (again, it is JESUS saving us, not we saving ourselves), we will be punished. Very simple.

evry1needsgod -> RE: Here's what God does (8/24/2008 4:59:51 PM)
quote: The parent can change the child's options any time he wants to and so does God. Otherwise, God wouldn't be in control of anything, much less our lives. Can man have a free-will and God still be in control? Absolutely! A parent who allows their kid to screw up can still be in control of the situation. You just make the false assumption that for one to be in control of a situation, one must forcibly control that situation. That's false. I do not have to force my kid to do anything to remain in control of the situation.

TrustingGod -> RE: Here's what God does (8/24/2008 5:25:57 PM)
Carico, in the verse "our struggle is not against flesh and blood." This is Paul, a man, talking to other men. Therefore, "our" is not God, it is man. As for predestined, I believe ALL are predestined to be saved...however, not all choose to follow what God truly desires. Some choose to throw away the free gift of salvation. God is all-knowing. He knows the choice I'm going to make before I make it -but He doesn't control what decision I make. If I offer my son skittles and a hershey bar - he can choose either one - I won't force him to pick one or the other. Because I know him, I KNOW he will choose the skittles. He loves them. But he still has absolute freedom to choose the hershey bar. The difference between me and God in this example - God knows with no doubt which one I'll choose...one day my son may surprise me and choose the hershey bar.

evry1needsgod -> RE: Here's what God does (8/24/2008 5:37:30 PM)
quote: As for predestined, I believe ALL are predestined to be saved...however, not all choose to follow what God truly desires. I hope you have mixed up your terms a bit, because this sounds a bit Universalistic. Here is what Rom8:29 says "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." IOW, God knew who would choose His, and therefore predestined them to be like His Son, Jesus Christ. So no, not all were predestined to be saved. All were given the opportunity to be saved, however. Some choose to reject that gift, and subsequently reap the consequences.

Carico -> RE: Here's what God does (8/24/2008 7:52:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TrustingGod Carico, in the verse "our struggle is not against flesh and blood." This is Paul, a man, talking to other men. Therefore, "our" is not God, it is man. As for predestined, I believe ALL are predestined to be saved...however, not all choose to follow what God truly desires. Some choose to throw away the free gift of salvation. God is all-knowing. He knows the choice I'm going to make before I make it -but He doesn't control what decision I make. If I offer my son skittles and a hershey bar - he can choose either one - I won't force him to pick one or the other. Because I know him, I KNOW he will choose the skittles. He loves them. But he still has absolute freedom to choose the hershey bar. The difference between me and God in this example - God knows with no doubt which one I'll choose...one day my son may surprise me and choose the hershey bar. I have a question for you; once you meet someone, how much of a "decision" do you make to believe that person exists?[sm=sadquestion.gif] Zero. Once you have met the risen Lord through the Holy Spirit, it requires zero decision to know that God exists. And anyone who knows that God exists, will never purposely choose to go to hell. So "faith is a gift from God so that no one can boast." So the only conclusion is that Arminians have not met the risen Lord or they would know that they decided nothing, absolutely nothing. Jesus tells us that God leads us out of temptation, not we ourselves. So once Arminians know God, they'll ask Him to lead them out of temptation instead of using the force of their will which will eventually backfire because it doesn't come from faith in God but faith in oneself.

MrFribbles -> RE: Here's what God does (8/24/2008 9:04:15 PM)
quote: anyone who knows that God exists, will never purposely choose to go to hell. Plenty of people believe and know that God exists, but still choose to deny Christ. quote: So the only conclusion is that Arminians have not met the risen Lord or they would know that they decided nothing, absolutely nothing. Where in Scripture does it suggest one must have a certain understanding of the free-will debate in order to be saved? quote: Jesus tells us that God leads us out of temptation, not we ourselves. So once Arminians know God, they'll ask Him to lead them out of temptation instead of using the force of their will which will eventually backfire because it doesn't come from faith in God but faith in oneself. God leads us, yes. But since when was leading a one-person operation? If there was no effort at all on our part, why wouldn't Scripture say God picks us up and completely removed us from temptation?

Carico -> RE: Here's what God does (8/24/2008 9:16:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrFribbles quote: anyone who knows that God exists, will never purposely choose to go to hell. Plenty of people believe and know that God exists, but still choose to deny Christ. quote: So the only conclusion is that Arminians have not met the risen Lord or they would know that they decided nothing, absolutely nothing. Where in Scripture does it suggest one must have a certain understanding of the free-will debate in order to be saved? quote: Jesus tells us that God leads us out of temptation, not we ourselves. So once Arminians know God, they'll ask Him to lead them out of temptation instead of using the force of their will which will eventually backfire because it doesn't come from faith in God but faith in oneself. God leads us, yes. But since when was leading a one-person operation? If there was no effort at all on our part, why wouldn't Scripture say God picks us up and completely removed us from temptation? [sm=eek.gif] So you're saying that the joys of the indwelling Holy Spirit are nothing compared to the agony and misery of hell which is why those who meet Jesus through the indwelling Holy Spirit much prefer hell to heaven. Is that what you're saying?[sm=eek.gif] If so, it's not only irrational, but contradicts much scripture, specifically, 1 John 4:4 John 10;5 John 10:28 Romans 8:9 1 John 3:9 To name only a few. So your statements are incorrect. So read the parable of the sower and try to figure out who the people are who bear good fruit and why. Ezekiel 36:27, "And I will out my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and obey my laws." The bible makes it crystal clear that it's the power of the Holy Spirit that changes hearts and minds, not man's sinful nature. [8\|] So since belief in free will contradicts so much scripture and those born of the Holy Spirit will always agree with scripture, then those who believe in free will are in opposition to God.

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