Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats (Full Version)

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inthysite -> Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats (8/22/2008 4:52:46 PM)

Their justification? High gas prices:

The high cost of fuel makes the four-day week all the more important, [Majority Leader Steny] Hoyer's letter said. "In these times of high gasoline prices, I believe the federal government should do all it can to ensure that federal agencies and departments are appropriately reducing gasoline consumption. This goal can be accomplished with the adoption of personnel policies to limit unnecessary commuting."

So Pelosi shuts the place down and Congress skips town without passing an energy bill. Now Democrats are pushing for a four day work week for gas relief for federal employees, even as they've refused to do anything to provide relief for ordinary Americans. Republicans are hitting back — Republican Study Group Chairman Jeb Hensarling issued the following statement:

The Democrat solution to high gas prices – a four day work week for themselves and federal bureaucrats. Brilliant! While the Speaker of the House is off jet setting to promote her book, the Majority Leader is figuring out how to get more time off. Americans struggling to pay their bills and fill their gas tanks deserve so much better from their elected officials.

People across the country are begging for Congress to work on a common sense energy plan that will lower costs at the pump. For months, we’ve made clear that we need conservation, but not just conservation. We need renewable energy, but not just renewable. We need alternatives, but not just alternatives. We need to produce energy in America for Americans so we can drive down the cost of gas and increase our energy independence. Though Speaker Pelosi and Majority Leader Hoyer continue to block our efforts, Republicans will keep fighting for a comprehensive, common sense energy plan that includes all of those goals.

Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats

Amazing! The Democrats answer to the energy prices is to work even less! Sure they will pay less in gas prices but what about America?



Jhud -> RE: Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats (8/22/2008 5:00:40 PM)

I actually wouldn't mind them taking one day off providing they took a corrresponding pay cut, and gave us the freedom to conduct searches for needed fuel as needed (like oil and nuclear). Generally the more congress and the bureaucrats work, the less freedom and prosperity most citizens enjoy.



SwedishCovenant -> RE: Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats (8/22/2008 5:04:16 PM)

Actually, if anyone is interested in the actual facts of the issue, as opposed to inthysite's and Jhud's deliberate misunderstanding of it, here is the story:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/21/AR2008082103473.html

Now, for anyone other than terminally-obtuse Dem-bashers, the current five-day-eight-hours-a-day workweek has EXACTLY THE SAME NUMBER of work hours as the proposed FOUR-days-a-week-TEN-hours-a-day workweek. (Hint: They both total up to forty hours per workweek.)



Jhud -> RE: Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats (8/22/2008 5:17:02 PM)

quote:

Actually, if anyone is interested in the actual facts of the issue, as opposed to inthysite's and Jhud's deliberate misunderstanding of it, here is the story: Now, for anyone other than terminally-obtuse Dem-bashers, the current five-day-eight-hours-a-day workweek has EXACTLY THE SAME NUMBER of work hours as the proposed FOUR-days-a-week-TEN-hours-a-day workweek. (Hint: They both total up to forty hours per workweek.)


Actully, I was simply expressing the utopian hope that congress would work less.



inthysite -> RE: Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats (8/22/2008 5:53:27 PM)

quote:

Now, for anyone other than terminally-obtuse Dem-bashers, the current five-day-eight-hours-a-day workweek has EXACTLY THE SAME NUMBER of work hours as the proposed FOUR-days-a-week-TEN-hours-a-day workweek. (Hint: They both total up to forty hours per workweek.)


I never asserted that they would work less, my point was and still is that their answer to the energy crisis is to save themselves money on gas and figuring that by them using less gas it will reduce demand and we will all benefit from lower prices.

Absurd!



inthysite -> RE: Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats (8/22/2008 6:00:40 PM)

Here is some more information that the Washington Post left out of their article:

Hoyer wrote to the the Office of Personnel Management early this month to ask give a report on the requirements needed for Congress to implement a four-day, 10-hour work week for federal employees.

The policy has been adopted by state and local governments. Federal agencies have the prerogative to choose alternative work schedules under a federal law.

In her letter to the OPM, Hoyer said, "Adopting a compressed work week would take approximately 20% of federal employees off the roads on any given week day, generating significant cost savings for the American taxpayer without a drop in productivity or decrease in service."

House Republican Leader Calls Plan For Four-Day Work Week "An Insult To American Workers"



blessedinnyc -> RE: Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats (8/22/2008 6:11:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: inthysite

Their justification? High gas prices:

The high cost of fuel makes the four-day week all the more important, [Majority Leader Steny] Hoyer's letter said. "In these times of high gasoline prices, I believe the federal government should do all it can to ensure that federal agencies and departments are appropriately reducing gasoline consumption. This goal can be accomplished with the adoption of personnel policies to limit unnecessary commuting."

So Pelosi shuts the place down and Congress skips town without passing an energy bill. Now Democrats are pushing for a four day work week for gas relief for federal employees, even as they've refused to do anything to provide relief for ordinary Americans. Republicans are hitting back — Republican Study Group Chairman Jeb Hensarling issued the following statement:

The Democrat solution to high gas prices – a four day work week for themselves and federal bureaucrats. Brilliant! While the Speaker of the House is off jet setting to promote her book, the Majority Leader is figuring out how to get more time off. Americans struggling to pay their bills and fill their gas tanks deserve so much better from their elected officials.

People across the country are begging for Congress to work on a common sense energy plan that will lower costs at the pump. For months, we’ve made clear that we need conservation, but not just conservation. We need renewable energy, but not just renewable. We need alternatives, but not just alternatives. We need to produce energy in America for Americans so we can drive down the cost of gas and increase our energy independence. Though Speaker Pelosi and Majority Leader Hoyer continue to block our efforts, Republicans will keep fighting for a comprehensive, common sense energy plan that includes all of those goals.

Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats

Amazing! The Democrats answer to the energy prices is to work even less! Sure they will pay less in gas prices but what about America?

Actually, this has already been done in Republican Utah:

http://www.texarkanagazette.com/news/WireHeadlines/2008/07/04/utah-is-going-to-a-four-day-workweek-to--26.php



Dubya -> RE: Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats (8/22/2008 6:56:19 PM)

A 10 hour day causes problems for working families with children.
How do the politicians propose to handle their needs?

An 8 hour day can fit with taking children to school or day care and then picking them up at night. A 10 hour day makes it much more difficult. It is not simply as easy as adding 2 hours per day to the work schedule.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats (8/22/2008 7:04:13 PM)

quote:

A 10 hour day causes problems for working families with children.
How do the politicians propose to handle their needs?

An 8 hour day can fit with taking children to school or day care and then picking them up at night. A 10 hour day makes it much more difficult. It is not simply as easy as adding 2 hours per day to the work schedule.

That's a great question, and I'm sure it will crop up in the study that Steney Hoyer has proposed.



inthysite -> RE: Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats (8/22/2008 8:12:14 PM)

The only problem I have with this, whether it's Republicans or Democrats, is that it will not affect the energy situation one iota. Just because they aren't driving to work doesn't mean they won't be on the roads.

Some will go shopping, others golfing, or who knows what. But I'll guarantee the majority won't be sitting at home cleaning out the garage.

I'm sick of these gimmick so called solutions about a real problem. When will politicians get serious about this?[:@]



iluvatar -> RE: Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats (8/23/2008 12:04:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: inthysite

quote:

Now, for anyone other than terminally-obtuse Dem-bashers, the current five-day-eight-hours-a-day workweek has EXACTLY THE SAME NUMBER of work hours as the proposed FOUR-days-a-week-TEN-hours-a-day workweek. (Hint: They both total up to forty hours per workweek.)


I never asserted that they would work less, my point was and still is that their answer to the energy crisis is to save themselves money on gas and figuring that by them using less gas it will reduce demand and we will all benefit from lower prices.

Absurd!


Do you even read what you write? From your OP: "Amazing! The Democrats answer to the energy prices is to work even less! Sure they will pay less in gas prices but what about America?"


quote:

ORIGINAL: inthysite

The only problem I have with this, whether it's Republicans or Democrats, is that it will not affect the energy situation one iota. Just because they aren't driving to work doesn't mean they won't be on the roads.


Do you spend more time driving on work days or on your days off? I know I spend more time driving back and forth to work.

quote:

ORIGINAL: inthysite
I'm sick of these gimmick so called solutions about a real problem. When will politicians get serious about this?[:@]


What do you suggest they do?

-Dan.



Rufas2000 -> RE: Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats (8/23/2008 12:22:44 AM)

quote:

An 8 hour day can fit with taking children to school or day care and then picking them up at night. A 10 hour day makes it much more difficult. It is not simply as easy as adding 2 hours per day to the work schedule.


Switch schools to a four day work week as well. Increase instructional and planning time to compensate for the lost day. There will be more class time due to eliminating a day worth of transitions (will slightly increase student focus as they do not have to redirect their attention on the eliminated day, it takes students a bit of time to focus on the class at hand). In essence at my school we would have 4 days of 65 minute classes a week as opposed to 5 days of 50 minute classes. It actually works out to a bit more work as 5 days of 50 minute classes translates into 4 days of 62.5 minute classes.

Plus it will eliminate much of the costs of opening the school that day (electricity and such). And it would serve as a de facto raise without paying for the raise for teachers, administrators and other school related personnel as the cost of gas for the trip on the eliminated day will be gone.

I'm not saying that it wouldn't have unforseen negative side effects (perhaps the longer classes will conflict with their short attention span) but it does have its upside. It would solve the child care issue, or at least render it status quo.

Sorry for the poorly worded post (in spots). My excuse is fatigue and back pain.



inthysite -> RE: Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats (8/23/2008 12:57:50 AM)

quote:

Do you even read what you write? From your OP: "Amazing! The Democrats answer to the energy prices is to work even less! Sure they will pay less in gas prices but what about America?"


I just quoted the title of the article, it wasn't my assertion. However maybe I should have been a little clearer. My point wasn't that they would work less as far as hours go but rather that they think working fewer days will have an impact.

quote:

Do you spend more time driving on work days or on your days off? I know I spend more time driving back and forth to work.


Well seeing how I operate a home based business I drive more on my off days. However, when I was working for a company I still drove less to and from work than I did to and from the shopping mall, the park, and several other activities my family and I would do on the weekends.

quote:

What do you suggest they do?


Pass the legislation supported by a majority of America. Drill, both offshore and in ANWR, allow the construction of new nuclear plants, allow construction of new refineries, while at the same time expand existing new technology such as wind and solar, and develop new technology like hydrogen fuel cells.

Add to that removing the red tape required to drill and build. Do something to stop all the special interest groups who drag everything into court to prevent any of this to take place.

There is a lot of support out there for wind power, however the special interest environmental nuts are filing suit over the power lines required to transfer the power generated from the windmills to where it needs to go.

They won't let us drill, they won't let us build, the don't like power lines, they don't like the high prices or the fact that we are dependent on other countries for our energy. So what are we supposed to do, go back to the stone age?



ljmac -> RE: Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats (8/23/2008 1:26:46 AM)

Let's see if we can get Pelosi to stop flying 757s provided by the government to California and back. Energy pig!



Rufas2000 -> RE: Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats (8/23/2008 3:04:29 AM)

A few points. I wholeheartedly agree with the article's general thesis and the suggested ways to deal with the energy crisis.

quote:

Now Democrats are pushing for a four day work week for gas relief for federal employees, even as they've refused to do anything to provide relief for ordinary Americans


Many Federal employees are "ordinary Americans" (as opposed to congresspeople and other elected & appointed officials) though Congress' self interest in this is duly noted.

quote:

Well seeing how I operate a home based business I drive more on my off days. However, when I was working for a company I still drove less to and from work than I did to and from the shopping mall, the park, and several other activities my family and I would do on the weekends


This is worth taking a look at because it is the major issue. Will an extra day off reduce gas & energy consumption (unoccupied or lightly occupied buildings don't require nearly as much power)? I do not drive as much on days when I do not work. My gas consumption is during the summer (my off time) is about half of what it is when I am working. However I tend to be a homebody and do not have a wife & kids.

BTW: this is not specifically addressed to inthysite but I am using the statement as a springboard to this conversation.

Comparing weekend driving to weekday driving is an OK starting point but it is not a sufficient comparison. The comparison we should make is between whether we would drive more on the additional day off than we would if we worked on that day. There is no certainty that the additional day would be universal or end up being a 3 day weekend. If schools do not receive the extra day then there go the activities with the kids. What if the extra day off is different in different jobs? Another factor to consider.

Lets assume that the three day weekend becomes the standard like the two day weekend is now. That still does not guarentee that the driving levels on the third day would be equal to the other two. For one, everyone is more tired due to cramming what was five days of work into four days. It may be more of a rest day. Assuming the school day is also made longer to allow the students the same amount of classroom time then they'll have two hours less time each day to do homework. They may need to stay home to catch up.

Consider this, will more family outings be planned due to the extra day. You may have a monthly trip to the park and another to the mall. Will you add more activities to the family schedule? More trips to the mall. Maybe that would happen but we can't assume everyone will be the same way.

Finally there is this: it is easier to alter the distance and frequency of family outings than it is to find a new job that is closer. I'm sure those concerned about their gas bills that are willing and able to find closer jobs have already done so.

The point I'm trying to make is that it would be very difficult to project the changes in driving habits and therefore the conservation of resources that would result from a four day work week. Obviously if its only for the Federal government and their employees then the gesture is merely symbolic (the reader can assess the value of that for themselves) and pretty much meaningless in practical terms. However if the whole country switches over then it may have an impact. Nevertheless it is not even close to a solution by itself.

quote:

So what are we supposed to do, go back to the stone age?


Very insightful on your part (whether intentional or not). Having read some articles on liberal websites decrying our consumer culture and energy usage I can tell you that is pretty much exactly what they want to happen. Maybe not quite to the stone age but certainly to a "simpler" time. Strange for a group whose main means of getting their message out is entertainment media and the internet.



rlj -> RE: Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats (8/23/2008 10:28:02 AM)

quote:

A 10 hour day causes problems for working families with children.
How do the politicians propose to handle their needs?

An 8 hour day can fit with taking children to school or day care and then picking them up at night. A 10 hour day makes it much more difficult. It is not simply as easy as adding 2 hours per day to the work schedule.


I agree with Dubya that it would make things more difficult especially if they get an hour of unpaid lunch factored in.[:'(] Honestly though a work week of 4 10 hour days isn't that big of a deal. I used to do that. I know of people who have worked 3 12's and got paid for 40 to though that was unusual and not the norm.



sue244 -> RE: Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats (8/23/2008 10:35:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: inthysite
Assuming the school day is also made longer to allow the students the same amount of classroom time then they'll have two hours less time each day to do homework. They may need to stay home to catch up.


Well I don't know how it is in all states but I know in Colorado to have a 4 day school week you only have to add an hour on to each day not 2. Whent he school I went to swiched from 5 to 4 days I just had to be their and hour earlier because the 4 extra hours made up for the lost day. Apparently half a day still counts toward one of your requierd 180 school days.

Also I know I drive more on my off days then I do on the days I go to work, but then again I live 2 miles from work and usually bike so this is not the norm for most people in america.

That being said all it seems like congress is doing is trying to put a bandaid on a huge problem.
this is a problem that needs to be attacked from all sides, conserving, drilling, and looking for new technology to change how we fuel things.

Edit to change format and to add what I forgot.



ElmerFishpaw -> RE: Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats (8/23/2008 10:37:28 AM)

I do a 10hrday/4 day week.....and it's very nice indeed! I think it gives more time with family with the kids etc., which makes a 4day school week even more appealing. Parents and Children having another day together. I think a good family values thing. All my working life in aviation has been the 10/4 week. Everyone I've worked with loves it.



Rufas2000 -> RE: Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats (8/23/2008 11:18:32 AM)

quote:

Well I don't know how it is in all states but I know in Colorado to have a 4 day school week you only have to add an hour on to each day not 2. Whent he school I went to swiched from 5 to 4 days I just had to be their and hour earlier because the 4 extra hours made up for the lost day. Apparently half a day still counts toward one of your requierd 180 school days.


Well being a teacher I really like your perspective on it (and believe what you say is true for Colorado) but in fairness a 7.5 hour workday (6.5 for students) divided into 4 comes up to a little less than 2 added hours per day to make it up. While I don't think adding more time to the school day will automatically help our students learn more due to social factors (like the short attention span, although obviously the idea has merit) taking away time is definitely not the way to go.

Of course the state government could decide anything although less classroom time is not the direction they'll head here in Florida. I could support a 4 day work week with a clear conscience but I cannot support a plan that takes away classroom time from students. Even though I wouldn't mind the shorter work week from a "me" perspective.

quote:

I do a 10hrday/4 day week.....and it's very nice indeed! I think it gives more time with family with the kids etc., which makes a 4day school week even more appealing. Parents and Children having another day together. I think a good family values thing. All my working life in aviation has been the 10/4 week. Everyone I've worked with loves it.


I'd like to see it happen on a broader scale as well, as long as the plan was sound.



inthysite -> RE: Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats (8/23/2008 12:08:14 PM)

Rufas2000 you raised some very valid and interesting points. However, rather than making assumptions (ie, nationwide adherence, shorter school days, etc) let's honestly look at what is proposed.

After some searching I managed to find the letter Congressman Hoyer sent.
Congressman Steny Hoyer

Some excerpts (and for those of you who think my intention is to spin this by cherry picking portions to support my view, you are wrong):

Reason for his proposal:
In these times of high gasoline prices, I believe the federal government should do all it can to ensure that federal agencies and departments are appropriately reducing gasoline consumption. This goal can be accomplished with the adoption of personnel policies to limit unnecessary commuting.

American consumers are using less gasoline this summer, as prices have reached historic highs. Many Americans, including our hard-working federal employees, simply cannot afford to maintain their regular driving habits.

Justification:
In the National Capital Region, where approximately 400,000 area residents are employed by the federal government, implementation of a 4-day a week, 10-hour a day work schedule could yield several benefits. First, staggering10 hour a day work schedules would reduce road congestion, decrease commuting times, and reduce gasoline-wasting vehicle idling. On any given day of the work week, the policy could be managed such that only 80% of federal employees would be commuting to their offices.

Note here that he is not recommending all federal employees take the same day off but rather a staggered schedule. This would mean that their office buildings would still need to be powered, while it would be less than normal I don't think it would be enough to make any kind of impact.

He further adds:
Second, federal office buildings could achieve additional energy savings by not providing peak load climate control and lighting to building areas that are not being utilized.

I guess this would depend if it was coordinated by department vs a type of flex schedule per individual.

Now as you pointed out this would affect more than just Congress but applies to all federal employees and while Congress could get the same amount of work done in a 4 day/10 hour work week could all the other federal agencies? Even with a staggered schedule some agencies may not be able to function as well with reduced staff for each day, for example federal courts, the coast guard, customs and border protection, the postal service just to name a few.

quote:

Very insightful on your part (whether intentional or not). Having read some articles on liberal websites decrying our consumer culture and energy usage I can tell you that is pretty much exactly what they want to happen. Maybe not quite to the stone age but certainly to a "simpler" time. Strange for a group whose main means of getting their message out is entertainment media and the internet.


While I was being a little facetious (from the Latin feces meaning to be full of ****[:D] ) I agree with you that some environmentalist want us to go back to "simpler" times, such as candlelight and horse and buggy.



Rufas2000 -> RE: Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats (8/23/2008 12:20:31 PM)

Oh I dismissed what was proposed as pandering if done in isolation (and it appears that way). I was looking at the overall picture of a four day work week (with more exceptions than our current five day work week due to the agencies that need the extra day). I think a national four day work week is worth looking into as a small component in our effort to reduce our dependence on foreign oil.

BTW: to clarify I'm not saying all Liberals hate consumerism. But enough of them do (mostly environmentalists) to make it a second tier issue (as compared to first tier issues like abortion, getting out of Iraq and Afghanistan and socialized medicine).



colliefan -> RE: Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats (8/23/2008 12:53:11 PM)

How about this proposal: close down all government programs that aren't essential in the running of the country?



inthysite -> RE: Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats (8/23/2008 1:01:04 PM)

quote:

I think a national four day work week is worth looking into as a small component in our effort to reduce our dependence on foreign oil.


Hey I'm willing to do my part. Starting next week I'm only working M-T! [:D]

quote:

How about this proposal: close down all government programs that aren't essential in the running of the country?


I'm all for that but what would it do to the unemployment rate?



wing2000 -> RE: Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats (8/23/2008 4:42:14 PM)

I think a 4 X 10 work week makes sense (and I do think most people use more gas commuting to work...due in large part to our poor urban planing).

...and I would take it a step further:

Declare Sunday a day of rest or "family day" (you know...like it was thirty years ago).

- shut down all retail (one less day Americans can buy unnecessary Chinese imports!)

- close down the restaurants (we can all learn to cook again)



colliefan -> RE: Democrats Pushing for Four Day Work Week for Federal Bureaucrats (8/23/2008 9:28:17 PM)

quote:


I'm all for that but what would it do to the unemployment rate?


It would spike significantly b/c most are not qualified to have anything other than government positions. Just show up and one gets his/her paycheck.

Here in NC we had a person in a mental hospital die, left alone for 24 hours, while nurses were playing cards, dancing, watching TV and kissing each other. Did they get fired? Nope. All they got was retraining.



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