beer and cigarettes... (Full Version)

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BornAgainDan -> beer and cigarettes... (8/22/2008 2:50:35 PM)

if i enjoy these things in moderation is it a sin?



JimboFletch -> RE: beer and cigarettes... (8/22/2008 3:06:48 PM)

I understand moderation in beer, but how do you describe moderation in cigarettes? In most people, the pack a month becomes a couple cigarettes a day and then becomes a pack a day with a long term addiction that becomes very difficult to break.



rcjames -> RE: beer and cigarettes... (8/22/2008 3:11:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

I understand moderation in beer, but how do you describe moderation in cigarettes? In most people, the pack a month becomes a couple cigarettes a day and then becomes a pack a day with a long term addiction that becomes very difficult to break.


And again I fully support your opinion.

Thanks
RC



mvic -> RE: beer and cigarettes... (8/22/2008 3:16:53 PM)

Let us not go around searching for sins everywhere. Is eating too much a sin? Is driving everywhere instead of walking a sin? etc ... etc ...

Drinking in moderation is OK - but drinking to the point of addiction isn't.

Smoking is addictive and harmful - there's no moderation about it. So it is not OK.

JimboFletch and RCJames got it right.



Hayseed -> RE: beer and cigarettes... (8/22/2008 3:22:50 PM)

Again, with these "universal truths" that people have no clue how "everybody" handles things.

We need to start an area where all the omniscient people can teach us all how to know it all about everything and everybody.[8|]



WesP -> RE: beer and cigarettes... (8/22/2008 3:31:06 PM)

Incidentally, I know some people who only smoke on certain occasions.



JimboFletch -> RE: beer and cigarettes... (8/22/2008 3:37:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hayseed

Again, with these "universal truths" that people have no clue how "everybody" handles things.

We need to start an area where all the omniscient people can teach us all how to know it all about everything and everybody.[8|]

Hit a nerve, did we? Drifting down that famous river in Egypt? I think thee doth protest too much.

It doesn't take omniscience to observe that the majority of cigarette smokers follow a general pattern.

You understand what "majority" means, right? Can you grasp what a "general pattern" is? Or do you want to have a smoke while you think on it?



JimboFletch -> RE: beer and cigarettes... (8/22/2008 3:40:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WesP

Incidentally, I know some people who only smoke on certain occasions.

So do I. I was one of them for ages. Even quit altogether to go into bootcamp. The occasional smoke became routine, then, before I realized it, I was hooked - like most people generally do.



Hayseed -> RE: beer and cigarettes... (8/22/2008 3:43:44 PM)

Yep, you hit a nerve because I'm tired of people making statements they can't know enough about to say. No human has the capacity.

But, I'll give you credit for putting in some qualifiers this time.[;)]



JimboFletch -> RE: beer and cigarettes... (8/22/2008 3:49:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hayseed

Yep, you hit a nerve because I'm tired of people making statements they can't know enough about to say. No human has the capacity.

But, I'll give you credit for putting in some qualifiers this time.[;)]

You must just like to argue for the sake of it, because the only other people I know still pretending that nicotine isn't addictive and smoking isn't harmful and that the majority of its users wish they could break free is the tobacco industry. The average person doesn't, doctors don't, the courts don't, many cities no longer do, the vast majority of restaurant owners in my city don't, oncologists don't, and neither do funeral directors.



Hayseed -> RE: beer and cigarettes... (8/22/2008 4:01:20 PM)

No. I like to call people out that make statements as to what is universal truth and tells everybody else what another person is saying and doing. It promotes critical thinking.

Read the OP as it was stated with the qualifier "in moderation" that IS THERE and answer the question as it was asked without your assumptions and your own personal experience as the standard of how it works all the time.

BTW: I'm still waiting for you to answer my questions on the other thread. You accused me of saying things I didn't say and when I clarified my position you seem to be playing possum.



HighPlainsDrifter -> RE: beer and cigarettes... (8/22/2008 4:16:51 PM)

Nope, not in my opinion anyway. I know plenty of folks that can do both in moderation.



JimboFletch -> RE: beer and cigarettes... (8/22/2008 4:28:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hayseed
Read the OP as it was stated with the qualifier "in moderation" that IS THERE and answer the question as it was asked without your assumptions and your own personal experience as the standard of how it works all the time.

Assumptions? Sir, read my post. I asked a simple question, you're the one seeing assumptions. And my "personal experience," that's the GENERAL RULE, and your story is the EXCEPTION, not mine.

You address me as if I'm 16 years old and never ventured outside my hometown or else I'm a blind fool that's somehow managed to never be around other adults.

Well, mr. universal-statement police, I've been around smokers since I was a lad in the 50s & 60s and in the military from '71-80 and in the civilian workplace since then. The vast majority of the scores of smokers I've known hated smoking and wished they could break the chains that you so glibbly act like is no more than drinking bottled water.

One of my best friends in the world was the lone exception I've ever met. He smoked a pack or more a day and said he enjoyed smoking. Whenever he got a cold or the flu, he'd quit cold turkey until it passed, then happily picked up where he left off. But he WAS the lone EXCEPTION that did not follow the RULE. But note, he was also addicted and admitted he was, he just enjoyed smoking.

If you smoke whenever you want and aren't addicted and have no harmful effects, then bravo, bully for you. You are a RARE exception. Very rare.



JimboFletch -> RE: beer and cigarettes... (8/22/2008 4:45:36 PM)

How dare I assert that the usual pattern of tobacco use causes addiction - not moderation?

Try this on for size:

Nicotine is an addictive drug. It causes changes in the brain that make people want to use it more and more. In addition, addictive drugs cause unpleasant withdrawal symptoms. The good feelings that result when an addictive drug is present — and the bad feelings when it's absent — make breaking any addiction very difficult. Nicotine addiction has historically been one of the hardest addictions to break.

The 1988 Surgeon General's Report, "Nicotine Addiction," concluded that

-Cigarettes and other forms of tobacco are addicting.
-Nicotine is the drug that causes addiction.
-Pharmacologic and behavioral characteristics that determine tobacco addiction are similar to those that determine addiction to drugs such as heroin and cocaine.

SOURCE

Okay, your turn. Give us an authoritative source, something better than your say so that my statement is hogwash and that many if not most people use tobacco in moderation without addiction or problems quitting.

Dare you.

Double-dog dare you.



Jhud -> RE: beer and cigarettes... (8/22/2008 5:24:44 PM)

quote:

Incidentally, I know some people who only smoke on certain occasions.


Exactly. For example, I only smoke on those occasions when my clothes are on fire. [;)]



MrFribbles -> RE: beer and cigarettes... (8/22/2008 5:40:58 PM)

Personally, I don't see how anyone can enjoy beer in anything more than moderation. A bottle of decent brew is quite hefty in terms of what you're putting into your body. As a friend of mine put it, drinking a pint of Guinness is like eating a loaf of bread. ; )
But more seriously, I see no problem with enjoying beer, or any alcohol, in moderation.

Cigarettes, though, I cannot speak on. I've never smoked them. I do, however, occasionally smoke a cigar, or a bowl of tobacco in my pipe. And I can truthfully attest that it can be done in moderation. I began smoking... November, I think, of '07, and I think I could count the number of occasions I've smoked on one hand. I might have to resort to the other one, though.



HighPlainsDrifter -> RE: beer and cigarettes... (8/22/2008 6:24:05 PM)

As I know, and as Jimbo knows, you're walking a very fine line on tobacco between occasional use and addiction. Those of us that have had to break that addiction know how incredibly hard it can be. I still have no problem with someone choosing to walk that line, and won't call it a sin, nor will I preach on it, nor do I need to be right about it, but you ought to know that you're dancing with a devil in a strictly metaphorical sense.



SonInMe1 -> RE: beer and cigarettes... (8/22/2008 9:12:45 PM)

My lungs are not the best. If I drink I hafta smoke...so I do neither.

That's me. IF you can do either in moderation then I would guess its not neccesarily a sin...but neither is good for you.

Why bother with them?



WesP -> RE: beer and cigarettes... (8/22/2008 9:37:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

My lungs are not the best. If I drink I hafta smoke...so I do neither.

That's me. IF you can do either in moderation then I would guess its not neccesarily a sin...but neither is good for you.

Why bother with them?


Sitting in front of a computer for hours every day instead of exercising isn't too good for ya either! [sm=Llol.gif]



TheBibleTRUTH -> RE: beer and cigarettes... (8/23/2008 12:13:50 AM)

There is nothing wrong with either, unless it's coming between you and your relationship with God. Some people are different and can take different amounts of certain things and still be at peace with God.

There is no legalism about what you do with you life as long as God is first... smoking doesn't automatically mean that you aren't doing that. The person who got me in the Bible smoked quite a bit, and it did not harm his walk with God whatsoever. It's not a good idea to get legalistic and create laws that are not biblical for people. All it does is put people in bondage and that is very contrary to the Word of God.

I absolutely cannot drink caffeine at all.. and the only caffeine I get is in my creatine that I drink before my workouts. What this has done to me is that it makes me addicted to working out because I can't wait to take the creatine drink. Consequently I go 6 days a week to the gym and the results have been impressive. But my point is that it doesn't distract me from my walk with God, nor does it cause me to be unpeaceful, and I don't put the drink or working out before God. Therefore, it's not a big deal whether I drink a little caffeine or I don't drink a little caffeine.

Now if you smoke and it makes your mind go crazy and it's absolutely impossible for you to be at peace or renew your mind after it then don't do it, because that is putting cigarette's above God. But, it's impossible for us to know those details about a persons life unless they tell us or God gives us the revelation. Don't get all critical of someone that does something that you think is against the Bible, that is very unloving. Instead, love them like God loves you and have them assess themselves, with God helping them and showing them, whether or not it's being affecting their spiritual walks.



intenets_user -> RE: beer and cigarettes... (8/23/2008 1:12:22 AM)

I have smoked 1-2 cigarettes a day for years now. Just sayin.



Child4Jesus -> RE: beer and cigarettes... (8/23/2008 1:29:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hayseed
Yep, you hit a nerve because I'm tired of people making statements they can't know enough about to say. No human has the capacity.

But, I'll give you credit for putting in some qualifiers this time.[;)]


That fact of the matter we can make statement like Jimbo did above. If a guy starts to shoot heroin into his veins he will more than likely get hooked. A majority of people will get hooked.

With cigs like Jimbo said on average the occasional smoker more than often becomes a pack a day smoker.



SovereignIsHe -> RE: beer and cigarettes... (8/23/2008 1:59:45 AM)

The bible says that which is not done in faith is a sin...

If one can squeeze knowingly ingesting a harmful and addicting substance into the body into an act of faith you have my vote for theologian of the year...



armydude -> RE: beer and cigarettes... (8/23/2008 10:49:21 AM)

Everything in our lives should glorify God. I simply cannot see how drinking alcohol, even in moderation, can do that.

And I agree with Jimbo and RC about smoking.



Hayseed -> RE: beer and cigarettes... (8/23/2008 11:17:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus

That fact of the matter we can make statement like Jimbo did above. If a guy starts to shoot heroin into his veins he will more than likely get hooked. A majority of people will get hooked.

With cigs like Jimbo said on average the occasional smoker more than often becomes a pack a day smoker.


Is that what the question was in the OP? I missed the part about him asking about heroin. Of course, I'd be answering a little different if I'd have known he was asking about heroin. Stupid me, I just read the words on the screen and stuck to discussing the question I saw.

I'm not a pack a day smoker. I guess I'm above average. Thanks for the info.

quote:

ORIGINAL: armydude

Everything in our lives should glorify God. I simply cannot see how drinking alcohol, even in moderation, can do that.


Maybe not, but then again, you've haven't seen and done everything. You probably don't know how every culture is and how people do things differently than you do.

I bet if I took you on my "mission field" for a day or two it just might open you up to seeing that there are things outside your "norm." Like, a "C.S. Lewis Society" meeting, where a bunch of us guys get together at the local pub and discuss theology, God, etc. over a few beers and cigars. Not all of them are total believers... YET. Nobody gets drunk or anything like that.

Like I've said before... the first guy I ever "led to the Lord", the first week I was a Christian... The contact started by him asking if he could bum a cigarette as I passed him on the sidewalk. God can use people in all different sorts of areas.



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