Should We Leave Our Church? (Full Version)

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seeking2knowHimMore -> Should We Leave Our Church? (8/21/2008 12:56:46 PM)

Hi everyone. I am in desperate need of advice. This is going to be a long message, so I apologize in advance for writing so much, but I must share this with you because my heart is very heavy right now. I need to hear some honest and un-biased, Godly feedback on this situation. I am hoping that hearing from other truly-committed Christians who are not involved in our situation will help give us a good perspective. I figure this is a good forum, since nobody here knows us or our pastor/church leadership and everything is anonymous.

My dear husband has a major decision to make for our family, which is do we stay at our church or do we leave and find another suitable church. Our pastor/church leadership recently sent all the families letters about our pastor’s vision for our church and what he wants us to do for the coming year, etc. But this letter was harsher than any other letter we have ever gotten over the years. My husband and I have been at our church for many years (over 15 for him, and over 10 for me).

Anyway, the letter literally had GRADES for our family in several categories. For example, it said “Your Sunday morning attendance is excellent”; “Your Sunday evening attendance is good”; “Your Tuesday night Bible Study attendance is poor”, etc., etc., etc. This grading system is a direct result of something that has irritated many of our church members recently. Our church has implemented a new process of having people at our church literally take attendance at every single service; they literally keep a chart and write down who is at the service and what time the person arrived. We were shocked about this, but this is the reality. The letter also brought up tithing and didn’t rate us very highly, even though our giving has steadily increased over the years!

The thing is this: we do the best we can within this season of our family's life. We have 3 small children (all under the age of 5). I was faithfully involved in ministry up until a few years ago when I returned to full-time work and started part-time graduate school.

Our church leaders know that I am doing graduate school and that I work full-time, and that my husband’s job takes him all over the place on travel, from time to time. We have been very honest with them about not having enough time to do it all. The children are still very young. They're on a schedule of getting in bed each night at 8:00, no later than 8:30. Tuesday night Bible study doesn’t even start until 8:00 and they DO NOT offer childcare. Our women's ministry class is on Thursday nights, and if my husband isn't home from work early enough, I'd have to drag the children to that—again, no childcare is offered. Men's ministry class has been happening on either Friday nights or Saturday mornings. My husband works a lot of Saturdays (meaning 6 day work weeks) just to keep up with our finances--not to have tons of extra money. On his Saturdays off, we try as much as we can to have family time. On top of all of that, my priorities during the weeknights are in my home trying to spend time with my husband, my children, get my school work done, and try to take care of cleaning my house and getting laundry done.....all while working full-time. My job is one hour away, one-way, and it’s a very good job with outstanding benefits. And they’re very flexible with me if one of the children is sick. Our church is 20 minutes from our house in the opposite direction of my job.

Very few couples in our church have children that are under the age of 6 or 7. Most of the members have middle school, high school, and college kids. I'm saying this just to let you know that there's pretty much no sensitivity for people's schedules when they have young children. They expect us to be up at the church 3-4 days of the week, and we simply cannot commit to that and have never promised to make this commitment. We have always informed them of our family's schedule conflicts and challenges. And yes, I'm a grad student who is a bit older than the average grad student, but does that mean that I shouldn't go to school to better myself and fulfill the dream that the Lord placed in my heart? If I quit work and school tomorrow, and was up at our church 5 days and nights a week, the church leadership would be absolutely THRILLED!!! And I'm not exaggerating, either.

I think that our church leaders are still upset with us for declining the request (from a few years ago) to become a formal part of church leadership (deacon and deaconess). We really wanted to do it, but decided that we didn't have time to fully commit to it and didn't want to half-way do it. Left up to me, I would try to do everything. My husband had to instruct me to step down from the ministries I was doing, or I would have still tried to do it all and killed myself in the process.
My husband is very hurt and kind of angry. He is actively participating in a couple ministries right now, but the “grading/ratings” in the letter didn’t seem to even acknowledge that. Yesterday he told me that we're visiting other churches for a while and he will then make a decision if we're staying at our church or not. I've told him that he needs to seek the Lord's face for a decision and not to make any decisions out of emotion.

My heart is so torn. I deeply love our church family; many of those people are like real family to me, since I've known them for decades….way before I actually joined. I'm also upset with how things have been handled by our church. I told my husband that I will support him and follow him in whatever decision the Lord gives him. We have been faithful to our church and have faithfully tithed and increased our giving over the years, as we should have, every time our salaries have increased.

We rarely miss a Sunday, and the leadership is fully aware of why we miss services during the week. During the times where people have been against our pastor and left the church or tried to convince others to leave, we have always stood with him and his wife. I don't want us to leave our church; I desperately want to stay and just talk to them and work things out. I just don't know what's going to happen in my husband’s heart over this. Please pray for the Lord's will and not our will. I don't want to be outside of His will.....never, never, never! We both love our pastor and his wife dearly. I know that my husband does, and I know I do. This just hurts, and I don't like that my husband is feeling like this. At this point, he says talking to our pastor will be a waste of time, because he made it clear how he felt about us from the "ratings" in the letter.

Please give me your honest opinion on this. Are we overreacting? Should we leave? What should we do? Thanks to everyone, in advance!



Calea37 -> RE: Should We Leave Our Church? (8/21/2008 1:13:49 PM)

Oh my goodness! Yuck. I would leave yesterday.

We go to church to worship God and to be encouraged and filled so that we can take His light out into the world. I can't imagine how they feel that grading attendance as though you were school children is their place or right.... Very scary and a little sickening. The only obligation you truly have is to God. Do you feel He is leading you to be there more...do more...attend more? THAT is between your family and God and in my opinion is not for the "church" to decide.

You need to pray and do what you believe God is leading you to do but I would not want to be a part of that kind of mentality.



the_mom -> RE: Should We Leave Our Church? (8/21/2008 1:26:20 PM)

A situation like this would bring out every passive-aggressive bone in my body. If it were me, I'd keep doing everything the same as I had always done. I'd throw the letters in the trash and shrug whenever someone brought it up. Then, I would continue to enjoy all the companionship and fellowship that I valued in the church.

That probably is not a correct response, but this is a control thing that is going on, and I hate it when people try to control me. They are not trying to help you or disciple you; they are trying to control you.

If you don't have that kind of temperament, then you should leave. These people are acting like pharisees. They are making church a living hell for you, when it should be a place of healing. And it is all what they want and has nothing to do with God. See Mark chapter 7.



dawnnewday1 -> RE: Should We Leave Our Church? (8/21/2008 1:26:48 PM)

Before you leave, you should certainly sit down and speak with the leadership of the church, sharing everything you've shared here, remembering that biblically, when there is a conflict, you take your case as close to the source as possible, with the aim of settling the conflict. (Matthew 18:15)
If they do not give ear to your concerns, then certainly you should separate from that fellowship.
Ideally, they will see from your conversation the error of trying to pigeonhole members of Body of Christ and rate their "spirituality" by taking roll.
Hope this helps.
Blessings.



ta_mosquito -> RE: Should We Leave Our Church? (8/21/2008 1:29:53 PM)

If I were being cantankerous, I would send the letter back with my OWN grades, categories such as:
Love for the bretheren: Poor
Service to the bretheren: Poor (area for improvement: child care at Bible studies, etc.)
Bearing each other's burdens: Poor

etc.

But then, that's just the really cantankerous side of me. The "regular" side of me would prayerfully look at the letter and decide if there IS room for improvement in those areas CONSIDERING our situation. If there's not, toss it in the fireplace. If there is, take it to heart. Let's face it, sometimes families are so busy that God and fellowship with other believers takes a backseat. But this isn't happening in your case - you're faithful on Sunday mornings and make that time a priority. You serve and give.

(Speaking of giving, how do they know how "well" you're tithing? Do they know your income to know how much you're giving?)

I think you are being very level-headed about this, telling your husband to not decide on emotion but to follow the Lord's leading.

Hugs to you!



deliveredarling -> RE: Should We Leave Our Church? (8/21/2008 1:30:20 PM)

I agree that it is a control issue. Leave. It's not about God, it's about the leadership and them being pleased.



seeking2knowHimMore -> RE: Should We Leave Our Church? (8/21/2008 1:38:53 PM)

Thanks to all who have replied with their honest opinions....and thanks for the chuckles, too, thus far! I really appreciate it.

This is so hard because there are so many years of history between us and the church....I'm emotionally attached, but angry and hurt over how we're being treated like children.

To answer the question about our incomes....no, we don't have to turn in our W-2's or anything that crazy; however, the letter included a note about how "you've given X amount, so you presumably make X amount per year....this is rated as good." They don't know our income and don't know how often we're paid and how our giving goes up or down during any given month based upon things like my husband and my salaries (one of us is an hourly employee and one of us is salaried....so obviously our checks vary).

Thanks again, and I'm looking forward to more helpful feedback!



revbob4God -> RE: Should We Leave Our Church? (8/21/2008 1:40:41 PM)

quote:

If I were being cantankerous, I would send the letter back with my OWN grades, categories such as:
Love for the brethren: Poor
Service to the brethren: Poor (area for improvement: child care at Bible studies, etc.)
Bearing each other's burdens: Poor

Trish you are not cantankerous at all, I would do the same thing. I will say some people in leadership may lose sigh of what it feels like to have young children and be out in the world trying to survive. I would send them back a respectful but prayerful note reminding them that those who judge in the name of the Lord better be ready to countenance and rectify the four fingers that point back at them when they point a finger or a grade card.

I would also remind them that they are remiss as Christians in not preparing a ministry or care for the youth of the church.

And, in fact, I would then remind them that If they were concerned about the well being of the church family, they should be more mindful regarding setting realistic expectations of the flock.

Amen

Reverend Bob



bluestone -> RE: Should We Leave Our Church? (8/21/2008 1:42:38 PM)

I would leave, but before going, contact the denominational leadership about having this bunch of legalistic bullies removed from office.



revbob4God -> RE: Should We Leave Our Church? (8/21/2008 1:43:46 PM)

Yes, amen, what BLUE JUST SAID>



Sadey -> RE: Should We Leave Our Church? (8/21/2008 1:44:50 PM)

My cantankerous side would call up the pastor and ask him if he had lost his mind.

Our church tries to keep track so that if someone is missing for a few weeks they won't fall through the cracks.We want to keep contact with those who haven't come for awhile. But if I got a letter like that I would be highly insulted. I'm not a child I am an adult.

Trust me there will be a rush out the door from this letter. What a hairbrained idea. The bible says that if a brother has offended you go to him, not write him a letter so you don't have to deal with him face to face.



seeking2knowHimMore -> RE: Should We Leave Our Church? (8/21/2008 1:45:54 PM)

Well, wouldn't you know....it's a non-denominational church. But we do have an elder board. It's elder rule, not church vote, that decides on things in our church.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

I would leave, but before going, contact the denominational leadership about having this bunch of legalistic bullies removed from office.



bluestone -> RE: Should We Leave Our Church? (8/21/2008 1:47:39 PM)

uh oh. no recourse, huh?

I would be out of there.



SuspenseWriter -> RE: Should We Leave Our Church? (8/21/2008 1:51:48 PM)

And George Barna seemed shocked when he discoved literally how many hundreds of thousands of Christians in America have bailed on church completely. Craziness like this is just one of the reasons; too many people have to work 40+ hours a week for power-crazed martinets; darn few of them will choose to sit under the same stuff at a church.



bluestone -> RE: Should We Leave Our Church? (8/21/2008 2:04:13 PM)

good point, suspensewriter.

Maybe the congregation needs to "grade" the leadership.

Communication skills: F-
Sensitivity: F-
Teamwork F-
Lifting up the congregation F-
idiocy A+



Liveloved -> RE: Should We Leave Our Church? (8/21/2008 2:12:35 PM)

quote:

We both love our pastor and his wife dearly. I know that my husband does, and I know I do. This just hurts, and I don't like that my husband is feeling like this. At this point, he says talking to our pastor will be a waste of time, because he made it clear how he felt about us from the "ratings" in the letter.

Please give me your honest opinion on this. Are we overreacting? Should we leave? What should we do? Thanks to everyone, in advance!


Seeking,
Before I read any other responses I just want to respond myself. Don't let the 'ratings letter' pull at your emotional heart strings. That is exactly what the enemy would want you to do. Don't give him the satisfaction.

You say you both love the pastor and his wife. NOTHING has changed. You love them. Go to them in love and ask them face to face to help you understand what is going on.

Read Joshua 22 the story of the offensive altar. It is my favorite. And it is so relevant to situations that take place in the church. We 'think' we know. We 'think' we understand. We make assumptions. And we are often WRONG.

I believe Joshua 22 lays out exactly how God wants us to respond to situations like this. And that must include first hand loving communication with those involved to seek understanding and reconciliation.

I can tell from your letter that you are a wonderful and godly woman. Bless you. And let us know how things turn out. Seek the Lord, His will and way and you will be blessed. [:)] LL



seeking2knowHimMore -> RE: Should We Leave Our Church? (8/21/2008 2:23:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

quote:

We both love our pastor and his wife dearly. I know that my husband does, and I know I do. This just hurts, and I don't like that my husband is feeling like this. At this point, he says talking to our pastor will be a waste of time, because he made it clear how he felt about us from the "ratings" in the letter.

Please give me your honest opinion on this. Are we overreacting? Should we leave? What should we do? Thanks to everyone, in advance!


Seeking,
Before I read any other responses I just want to respond myself. Don't let the 'ratings letter' pull at your emotional heart strings. That is exactly what the enemy would want you to do. Don't give him the satisfaction.

You say you both love the pastor and his wife. NOTHING has changed. You love them. Go to them in love and ask them face to face to help you understand what is going on.

Read Joshua 22 the story of the offensive altar. It is my favorite. And it is so relevant to situations that take place in the church. We 'think' we know. We 'think' we understand. We make assumptions. And we are often WRONG.

I believe Joshua 22 lays out exactly how God wants us to respond to situations like this. And that must include first hand loving communication with those involved to seek understanding and reconciliation.

I can tell from your letter that you are a wonderful and godly woman. Bless you. And let us know how things turn out. Seek the Lord, His will and way and you will be blessed. [:)] LL

Thank you SO MUCH for this suggested scripture. I will go home and read this tonight. I don't want things to end badly at all! I don't really want them to end, period. But you're right; I just don't understand what's going on. At this point, my husband and I feel like we're being treated as children, and God is our Father, not our pastor.



laura... -> RE: Should We Leave Our Church? (8/21/2008 2:45:14 PM)

After the third paragraph of your original post you didn't need to write another word. I would have been out the door and seeking another church that afternoon.

Follow your husband as he seeks a new congregation for your family.



armydude -> RE: Should We Leave Our Church? (8/21/2008 8:30:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: laura...

After the third paragraph of your original post you didn't need to write another word. I would have been out the door and seeking another church that afternoon.

Follow your husband as he seeks a new congregation for your family.
Amen!



HisFish -> RE: Should We Leave Our Church? (8/21/2008 8:47:45 PM)

I would leave. I hate it when pastors try to guilt people into thinking that they have to be in church for every single function imaginable. There are churches where they make you think that somehow your less of a christian if your not on some committee or group or at all the services/prayer meetings/coffee get togethers/sat. morning pancake breakfast's or whatever they can think up. I have 4 kids and work six days a week and getting anywhere for just 1 day a week is a whole production in itself.



crankius -> RE: Should We Leave Our Church? (8/21/2008 8:57:20 PM)

I agree with the others--I would have left yesterday.

The letter is symptomatic of deeper issues. I personally could not submit to leadership like that. They are taking an extra-Biblical role in their leadership that is destructive.

In addition, I would be highly offended that anyone other than the treasurer was seeing my tithe and making judgments about it. Did the leadership read the letters and see the tithe amounts of everyone in the congregation? That is unethical, in my opinion.

They have serious authority issues.

There are two books that might be helpful for you and your husband right now--The Grace Awakening by Swindoll, and the follow-up book of his called Simple Faith.



truthrevealed -> RE: Should We Leave Our Church? (8/21/2008 9:01:33 PM)

If after seeking God your husband DOES decide to leave the church(which from what you've said sounds like what you should do). Then know that many times God will call us away from places where there is an emotional attachment, history, tradition and from places where people may FLAT OUT disagree and not like your decision. It may hurt....real bad and you may loose "friends" but be obedient to God's POSITIONING of you----whatever that is!



Rivermoon -> RE: Should We Leave Our Church? (8/21/2008 9:15:25 PM)

Hi Seeking2KnowHimMore,

My honest opinion for you about your situation is: this is not a church where God resides in.

Don't mean to judge. I would encourage you to ask God for discernment, and use Holy Bible as a guideline to make your decision.

1) Your church is a legalistic body. Nobody in the church has the right to judge and rate any church attendee according to whatever. It's legalistic, and lack of consideration of each unique struggles and limitations of every church attendee. Only our Lord is our judge, no others.

2) God wants us to tithe without any grudges. And we Christians have our free will to decide for ourselves where our tithe should go (as long as it goes to any of the God's ministries, not just to your own church ministry). As said above, nobody in the church has the right to judge your tithing, as the judge is our Lord, not any human beings.

3) Please not to be troubled by the rating as the 'rating'-thing is not biblical at all.

A biblical church is a church which respects your decision to stay or go without any pressure. I'm in the process of church-hopping. I was impressed one day when I visited a church I'd been for the very first time. An old lady was so kind to me and welcomed me and asked me to sit with her. At the end of the service, she asked me if I attended the church the first time. I said yes, and I was in the process of church-hopping. She asked if I would come back the next week. I told her I am truly not sure as I still have one more church to visit next week. You know how she responded to my saying, which I feel so touched. She told me just follow God's lead. If God wants you to stay in this church, then stay, if not, go to the church where God leads. This is a truly Godly woman's advice. So same advice I will offer you here. Not to be pressured by anyone in that church, not worth it. Ask God for peace and His guidance. He will lead, you just need to listen. :-D Then He will bless your whole family as He knows the hearts of all of your family members. :-)

Rivermoon



RJR_fan -> RE: Should We Leave Our Church? (8/22/2008 6:33:52 AM)

quote:

This is so hard because there are so many years of history between us and the church....I'm emotionally attached, but angry and hurt over how we're being treated like children.


My opinions are worth far less, BTW, than my prayers, and I am praying for you, your family, and your church. You can stop reading here.

I was raised Catholic, my wife was raised Methodist. In both traditions, the church is more than the bloke who's occupying the pulpit at the moment, and loyalty to the local body is like loyalty to one's own family.

First of all, your husband has a decision to make, and I do not want to flirt with God's wrath by doing anything to supplant or reduce his standing before God. It is his duty to guide and protect the family -- after consultation with you, of course!

I wonder, though -- is this action characteristic of your pastor? Or an aberration? Is he acting out of character, perhaps in response to stresses you know nothing about? Is he on the edge of some kind of emotional or spiritual breakdown?

Or has he already snapped?

Does your pastor need to take a sabbatical? Will his pulpit still be there if he does take time off, at least several months, to build his family? Can the church support him financially, perhaps at a reduced rate, if he does do this?

I am a professional (technical) writer, who finds face-to-face communication really difficult. Even so, for what it's worth -- and my opinions need to be taken "with a grain of salt," being as I am abnormally opinionated ...

there are things that wise folks do not put in writing.

See Matthew 18 -- when it's clobberin' time, you do it face to face. As a wise teacher once pointed out, sensitive stuff on paper can come back to bite you, legally speaking.

If the dear brother is acting out of character, your husband needs to have a coffee with him, and find out what's going on. "Friend, this is so strange. Are you all right?"



Angie_K -> RE: Should We Leave Our Church? (8/22/2008 10:28:54 AM)

Sounds to me like their guilt tactic is working. You don't have to make excuses as to why you don't flock in the church everytime the doors open. You have a young family and it is your (and your husbands) responsibility to take care of your small children and yourselves.

I used to go to a church that tried to control every aspect of our lives through guilt and manipulation which is what they are trying to do to you. Notice the "used to go".

My husband and I lost a great number of our friends when we left and it hurt deeply but... You give up your life for Christ not for a church, a building or system.

People will fail us but God never will. It's about a personal relationship with Him, not how much money you give or if your attendance is perfect.

I'd run. But before I did...

I'd tell them that God grades on a curve ~ it's called Grace and if they wanted to they could read all about it in a book ~ it's called the BIBLE.

But that's just me. [:D]



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