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RE: How Many Houses? - 8/25/2008 9:53:35 AM
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davemiller7
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If they play the wealth envy card, shouldn't they also answer about how many houses are owned by the likes of John Kerry, Teddy Kennedy, Jay Rockefeller, and now Joe Biden? Seems only fair that they answer for them, not that fair matters to the Democrat/Socialists and their lapdog media.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
I'm late to this thread, but...so what? Who cares how many houses John McCain owns, or if he can remember them all (although anybody could see he was just defelecting the question, of course he knows).
I think it's great the the American dream has worked so well for McCain that he can have so much.
But if the left can play the wealth envy card, rest assured that they will....
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: How Many Houses? - 8/25/2008 12:00:58 PM
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huangshan
Posts: 727
Joined: 8/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
If they play the wealth envy card, shouldn't they also answer about how many houses are owned by the likes of John Kerry, Teddy Kennedy, Jay Rockefeller, and now Joe Biden? Seems only fair that they answer for them, not that fair matters to the Democrat/Socialists and their lapdog media.
-Dave
Wealth envy card...?
I don't think that's quite how it plays out. There are wealthy people who are self-serving and attempt to only further line their own pockets and those of their similarly wealthy friends, and there are those who attempt to increase the general welfare of everyone.
There are people who genuinely worked for their money, and those who did not.
I would argue that Obama's proposed policies are more in line with making America better for everyone, while McCain's policies are generally geared towards his friends. Making America better for everyone is, in my estimation, more desirable.
I would argue that, as Biden is the poorest member of the senate and that Obama's wealth is largely recent and predominantly from book sales, that they are better representative of the average American (or at least, in a position to better understand and empathize with them). I would argue that, as McCain married into his wealth and that his wife inherited hers, that he is fundamentally unfamiliar with the struggle that many Americans endure on a daily basis. This lack of empathy and understanding can, I think, only hurt the quality of the policies he endorses.
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RE: How Many Houses? - 8/25/2008 12:23:04 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7832
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Wealth envy card...?
I don't think that's quite how it plays out. There are wealthy people who are self-serving and attempt to only further line their own pockets and those of their similarly wealthy friends, and there are those who attempt to increase the general welfare of everyone.
There are people who genuinely worked for their money, and those who did not.
I would argue that Obama's proposed policies are more in line with making America better for everyone, while McCain's policies are generally geared towards his friends. Making America better for everyone is, in my estimation, more desirable.
I would argue that, as Biden is the poorest member of the senate and that Obama's wealth is largely recent and predominantly from book sales, that they are better representative of the average American (or at least, in a position to better understand and empathize with them). I would argue that, as McCain married into his wealth and that his wife inherited hers, that he is fundamentally unfamiliar with the struggle that many Americans endure on a daily basis. This lack of empathy and understanding can, I think, only hurt the quality of the policies he endorses.
I always find it interesting what Democrats think is an 'average American'. I don't know how many average American were made wealthy from book sales fueled by a Presidential campaign, or whom have lived almost their entire lives at the taxpayer expense like Biden.
I mean as much as everyone criticizes Cindy McCain's fortune, at least it can be tied to the production of at least one useful consumer good.
And interestingly, they don’t express the least concern about the incredible wealth unordinary Americans like Kerry, Kennedy, Edwards, and the like, belying considerable hypocrisy here.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: How Many Houses? - 8/25/2008 12:45:09 PM
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huangshan
Posts: 727
Joined: 8/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I always find it interesting what Democrats think is an 'average American'. I don't know how many average American were made wealthy from book sales fueled by a Presidential campaign, or whom have lived almost their entire lives at the taxpayer expense like Biden.
I mean as much as everyone criticizes Cindy McCain's fortune, at least it can be tied to the production of at least one useful consumer good.
And interestingly, they don’t express the least concern about the incredible wealth unordinary Americans like Kerry, Kennedy, Edwards, and the like, belying considerable hypocrisy here.
First, you'll note that I added a qualifier... indeed most of my conclusion above addresses the relationship to average Americans that Biden and Obama have in comparison to McCain. It should also be noted, in reference to Biden, that McCain has also lived his entire life at taxpayer expense.
As to Cindy McCain's fortune, I'm not concerned with amassing wealth, or wealthy individuals. I hope to be one myself someday, and quite a few of my friends in China happen to be fabulously wealthy and I don't begrudge them for it (and cannot see the logic in begrudging them for it). I am concerned with how one's relationship to one's wealth translates to worldviews, and I said as much above. Regarding the extra-ordinary wealth of the Democrats you mention, their wealth seems to have not gone to their heads as it were (according to their general policy views), and as such, I have fewer qualms.
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RE: How Many Houses? - 8/25/2008 12:58:31 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7832
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
First, you'll note that I added a qualifier... indeed most of my conclusion above addresses the relationship to average Americans that Biden and Obama have in comparison to McCain. It should also be noted, in reference to Biden, that McCain has also lived his entire life at taxpayer expense.
As to Cindy McCain's fortune, I'm not concerned with amassing wealth, or wealthy individuals. I hope to be one myself someday, and quite a few of my friends in China happen to be fabulously wealthy and I don't begrudge them for it (and cannot see the logic in begrudging them for it). I am concerned with how one's relationship to one's wealth translates to worldviews, and I said as much above. Regarding the extra-ordinary wealth of the Democrats you mention, their wealth seems to have not gone to their heads as it were (according to their general policy views), and as such, I have fewer qualms.
I think the problem you have is that you qualify 'wealth going to one's head' according to the particular set of policies a candidate holds. Lots of ordinary Americans agree with McCain's desire to cut spending, lower taxes, and maintain a strong military despite the fact that they themselves aren't 'wealthy', so the fact that McCain holds such views is no indication that he is out of touch, but that he isn't a liberal.
Indeed, I would argue that it is the wealth of many leading Democrats that keeps them from seeing the harm their unwillingness to drill for oil or cut excessive spending does to ordinary Americans, and thus it is those people who are truly out of touch.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: How Many Houses? - 8/25/2008 1:00:02 PM
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inthysite
Posts: 770
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
I am concerned with how one's relationship to one's wealth translates to worldviews, and I said as much above.
I think that is the point the liberals are trying to make with this whole issue. McCain is wealthy, has been for a long time therefor he must be out of touch with the average American, after all he doesn't even know how many houses he owns. How then can he understand the struggles of the average American who have a hard time keeping just one house, paying for gas or groceries.
However, if we look at what the McCain family has done I think a completely different picture is brought out. Since it is mostly Cindy's money we are talking about let me point out a few things about her:
She founded and ran a non-profit organization, the American Voluntary Medical Team, from 1988 to 1995 that organized trips by medical personnel to disaster-struck or war-torn third-world areas. She continues to be an active philanthropist and serves on the boards of several charitable organizations.
While at Mother Teresa's orphanage in Dhaka, Bangladesh, in 1991 — as part of AVMT's assistance team following the 1991 Bangladesh cyclone[33] — she met two infant girls she decided needed to be brought to the United States for medical treatment.[23] She decided to adopt one of the girls (her husband readily agreeing), later named Bridget[9] (who became the McCains' fourth child together), and helped coordinate the adoption of the other little girl, named Mickey, for Wes Gullett, a family friend.[9
She became actively involved with Operation Smile in 2001,[49] taking parts in trips with it to Morocco, Vietnam, and India.[49] She was honored by the organization in 2005,[49] and sits on its board of directors.[32] She joined the board of directors of CARE in 2005.[32] She is on the board of the HALO Trust,[32] and has visited operations to remove landmines in Cambodia, Sri Lanka, Mozambique, and Angola.[17] She makes financial contributions to these organizations via her family trust,[18] and views her role on them as watching them in the field and to ensure they are frugal and their money is being spent effectively.[47] On occasion she has criticized foreign regimes on human rights grounds, such as Myanmar's military junta.[50]
Cindy McCain
So it appears that the McCain family is very well in touch with those who suffer, with poverty, and with those who suffer human rights violations.
Regarding their world view; well it appears as though it is geared towards charity and the true meaning of Matthew 25, the very thing NObama claims American is a failure at.
Now what has NObama or his wife done that compares with this?
_____________________________
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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RE: How Many Houses? - 8/25/2008 1:24:17 PM
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huangshan
Posts: 727
Joined: 8/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I think the problem you have is that you qualify 'wealth going to one's head' according to the particular set of policies a candidate holds. Lots of ordinary Americans agree with McCain's desire to cut spending, lower taxes, and maintain a strong military despite the fact that they themselves aren't 'wealthy', so the fact that McCain holds such views is no indication that he is out of touch, but that he isn't a liberal.
Indeed, I would argue that it is the wealth of many leading Democrats that keeps them from seeing the harm their unwillingness to drill for oil or cut excessive spending does to ordinary Americans, and thus it is those people who are truly out of touch.
I blended two separate points, my apologies:
McCain's proposed economics policy isn't good for America, Obama's is.
A lack of shared experience with average Americans is (all else being equal) a negative.
I believe that the second may inform the first, with respect to McCain. Given his flopping on the issue and his admitted cluelessness on economics however, it's entirely possible (even likely) that he's subscribing to Republican boilerplate because it's what his base wants of him.
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RE: How Many Houses? - 8/25/2008 1:30:30 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7832
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
I blended two separate points, my apologies:
McCain's proposed economics policy isn't good for America, Obama's is. .
Well, quite obviously this depends on what you think is 'good for America' economically.
quote:
A lack of shared experience with average Americans is (all else being equal) a negative.
I believe that the second may inform the first, with respect to McCain. Given his flopping on the issue and his admitted cluelessness on economics however, it's entirely possible (even likely) that he's subscribing to Republican boilerplate because it's what his base wants of him.
I don't know that McCain ever 'flopped' (or flipped) on economics as he has ever been a fiscal conservative - so I would say this is one of the issues he has been consistently right, and in touch on.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: How Many Houses? - 8/25/2008 1:37:59 PM
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huangshan
Posts: 727
Joined: 8/6/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Given his flopping on the issue and his admitted cluelessness on economics however, it's entirely possible (even likely) that he's subscribing to Republican boilerplate because it's what his base wants of him.
I don't know that McCain ever 'flopped' (or flipped) on economics as he has ever been a fiscal conservative - so I would say this is one of the issues he has been consistently right, and in touch on.
I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that he voted against the Bush tax cuts.
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RE: How Many Houses? - 8/25/2008 1:42:45 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7832
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that he voted against the Bush tax cuts.
FOr what is worth, his explanation of that decision is as follows:
I voted on the tax cuts because I knew that unless we had spending under control, we were going to face a disaster. We let spending get completely out of control. Those tax cuts have to remain permanent, otherwise people experience a tax increase. We let spending get out of control. We presided over the biggest increase in the size of government that with--since the "Great Society." We let it get out of control. I we had had the spending restraints that I proposed, we would be talking about more tax cuts today. We would be talking about more tax cuts. The trust and confidence in our base was eroded. I will restore that trust and confidence because I will restrain spending along with further tax cuts. I'm very proud of my record. If you look at those organizations that grade people, my record is very, very high for a consistent record of being a fiscal conservative. But I'm going to stop the pork barrel spending, and we're not going to have any more "Bridges to Nowhere."
If this is so, he did so for solid conservative economic principles.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: How Many Houses? - 8/25/2008 2:03:20 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1032
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
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You mean they don't express the same concern that Kerry married into the Heinz fortune, or Kennedy inherited his from the Joe Kennedy bootlegging enterprise, or that John Edwards, the trial lawyer, got his fortune from suing everyone in sight with mostly frivolous lawsuits? Truly amazing!!!
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I always find it interesting what Democrats think is an 'average American'. I don't know how many average American were made wealthy from book sales fueled by a Presidential campaign, or whom have lived almost their entire lives at the taxpayer expense like Biden.
I mean as much as everyone criticizes Cindy McCain's fortune, at least it can be tied to the production of at least one useful consumer good.
And interestingly, they don’t express the least concern about the incredible wealth unordinary Americans like Kerry, Kennedy, Edwards, and the like, belying considerable hypocrisy here.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: How Many Houses? - 8/25/2008 2:08:00 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1032
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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How can you say that "their wealth seems to have not gone to their heads"? They are three of the most pompous, arrogant members of congress.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I always find it interesting what Democrats think is an 'average American'. I don't know how many average American were made wealthy from book sales fueled by a Presidential campaign, or whom have lived almost their entire lives at the taxpayer expense like Biden.
I mean as much as everyone criticizes Cindy McCain's fortune, at least it can be tied to the production of at least one useful consumer good.
And interestingly, they don’t express the least concern about the incredible wealth unordinary Americans like Kerry, Kennedy, Edwards, and the like, belying considerable hypocrisy here.
First, you'll note that I added a qualifier... indeed most of my conclusion above addresses the relationship to average Americans that Biden and Obama have in comparison to McCain. It should also be noted, in reference to Biden, that McCain has also lived his entire life at taxpayer expense.
As to Cindy McCain's fortune, I'm not concerned with amassing wealth, or wealthy individuals. I hope to be one myself someday, and quite a few of my friends in China happen to be fabulously wealthy and I don't begrudge them for it (and cannot see the logic in begrudging them for it). I am concerned with how one's relationship to one's wealth translates to worldviews, and I said as much above. Regarding the extra-ordinary wealth of the Democrats you mention, their wealth seems to have not gone to their heads as it were (according to their general policy views), and as such, I have fewer qualms.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: How Many Houses? - 8/25/2008 8:30:22 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1934
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
or whom have lived almost their entire lives at the taxpayer expense like Biden.
My wife has worked for defense contractors for ~7 years. My brother works for a contractor to NASA. My father worked for a variety of defense contractors for 20+ years. I've been a civilian employee of the Air Force and a defense contractor. There are millions of people at tens (hundreds?) of thousands of sites across this country who make their living from the government in some form or another. "At the taxpayer's expense" includes not only politicians, but also military personnel, police officers, firefighters, hospital employees, engineers, scientists, teachers, etc.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I think the problem you have is that you qualify 'wealth going to one's head' according to the particular set of policies a candidate holds. Lots of ordinary Americans agree with McCain's desire to cut spending, lower taxes, and maintain a strong military despite the fact that they themselves aren't 'wealthy', so the fact that McCain holds such views is no indication that he is out of touch, but that he isn't a liberal.
Indeed, I would argue that it is the wealth of many leading Democrats that keeps them from seeing the harm their unwillingness to drill for oil or cut excessive spending does to ordinary Americans, and thus it is those people who are truly out of touch.
The way I see things, the typical republican platform of cutting spending and lowering taxes makes sense on its surface and appeals to conservatives who believe that the government should be responsible and efficient. In theory, that's great. I'm all for that. What I'm seeing, however, is that when these principles are put into practice, things don't turn out quite the way one would think. Be it tax cuts on long term capital gains, tax breaks for corporations, reduced gov't oversight etc all generally tend to favor the wealthy w/o having the amount of trickle-down benefit we're led to believe they will. I'm at the point where I doubt that these policies work anymore and I believe that this is what the alleged Democratic "wealth-envy" is based on.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: How Many Houses? - 8/26/2008 11:18:12 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 727
Joined: 8/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
How can you say that "their wealth seems to have not gone to their heads"? They are three of the most pompous, arrogant members of congress.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
As to Cindy McCain's fortune, I'm not concerned with amassing wealth, or wealthy individuals. I hope to be one myself someday, and quite a few of my friends in China happen to be fabulously wealthy and I don't begrudge them for it (and cannot see the logic in begrudging them for it). I am concerned with how one's relationship to one's wealth translates to worldviews, and I said as much above. Regarding the extra-ordinary wealth of the Democrats you mention, their wealth seems to have not gone to their heads as it were (according to their general policy views), and as such, I have fewer qualms.
It's right there in what you quoted.
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RE: How Many Houses? - 8/26/2008 12:11:04 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1032
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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Your astute (as usual) response went completely over my head. I stick by my words that Kerry, Kennedy, and Edwards are three of the most pompous, arrogant members of congress.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
How can you say that "their wealth seems to have not gone to their heads"? They are three of the most pompous, arrogant members of congress.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
As to Cindy McCain's fortune, I'm not concerned with amassing wealth, or wealthy individuals. I hope to be one myself someday, and quite a few of my friends in China happen to be fabulously wealthy and I don't begrudge them for it (and cannot see the logic in begrudging them for it). I am concerned with how one's relationship to one's wealth translates to worldviews, and I said as much above. Regarding the extra-ordinary wealth of the Democrats you mention, their wealth seems to have not gone to their heads as it were (according to their general policy views), and as such, I have fewer qualms.
It's right there in what you quoted.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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