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RE: Christian greed - 8/22/2008 7:14:41 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5580
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
Actually, the verse is "judge not lest you be judged" If you are willing to be judged by the standard you are imposing on others it is OK. We are supposed to hold Christians accountable.
Now putting on my moderator hat:
Questioning the salvation of other forums members is a TOS. Just a gentle nudge.
So true.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Christian greed - 8/23/2008 3:45:27 AM
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Little_1
Posts: 1459
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
In Matthew 23, Jesus gives another stern word to the religious people of His day regarding the way they were living.
Do people not believe because of the way you and I live?
It is very possible that we can damage our testimonies and therefore our credibility so that it is difficult for others (whether Christian or non Christian) to take what we say seriously because of the way in which we live our lives.
Christians have the Holy Spirit living within them and this should be a powerful witness if we are obeying the Holy Spirit. However, when we don't live according to God's Word and teaching we are living to the flesh and this is what others are opposed to and are turned off with and non Christians can even use such as an 'excuse' to continue in sinfulness.
I don’t believe bad behaviour and lifestyle in a professing Christian can keep non Christians from being saved however because that would be like saying, “other people’s salvation depends on our behaviour!” which is just so not true and a total misunderstanding of what salvation entails. However, God is not impressed by sinful behaviour in His children because His Word says:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jesus
Mark 9:42
"If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a large millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea."
This suggests that our behaviour can be a stumbling block to weaker 'believers' and cause them to sin (I noticed this passage is not written about non Christians!). It seems that God is not impressed by the wilful and sinful lifestyles of His own people and He likens his dislike of such very strongly to that of it being better that the one who is causing the stumbling in a weaker Christian to be taken away from this life rather than continue as they are doing because they could become a candidate to face the wrath of God for so doing. Very strong and scary words.
God has called us to be involved in the salvation of others, “Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel……“ and we can miss many good opportunities of being a blessing to others both Christian and non Christians alike (and likewise being blessed as a result ourselves) because of how we live. Furthermore, we face God's wrath if we deliberately and continually do what causes another weaker brother or sister to sin.
< Message edited by Little_1 -- 8/23/2008 8:47:17 AM >
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RE: Christian greed - 8/23/2008 8:28:33 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
For those of you who are opposed to all government assistance what would you recommend of someone who has a sudden change in circumstances so that they are in temporary need of assistance while they get back on their feet again: such as through job loss, sudden disability, etc. if their family and/or church are unable or unwilling to help.
Great quesiton. First we need to see if there is "sin" hiding in the life of the individual, family, christian friends and chruch. We want to "remove" that sin.
We turn to scripture. God teaches us that if we don't have relatives who live near us to help us in our time of need we are to turn to our friends. Even keeping friendships with our father's friends.
So the first question I ask people who are desiring help:
Please write out for me a list of those whom you have helped over the years. Give a brief description of what you have done for them and their phone number.
Then I ask them to give me the name and phone number of their Sunday School/Bible Teacher and their chruch treasurer. I ask this because those people "should know" if you have been a faithful supporter of your church.
Then I ask for the name and phone numbers of their family members. The reason for that is to uncover any "sin" that may be causing the person to not be able to work, get a job or hold a job or handle the money they do earn. I also want to meet with the family to teach "them" what God calls them to do as Christians. I want to see if they just talk the talk of the Christian life or do they actively walk the walk.
I ask for the name a phone numbers of their last employers. What insight might they be able to offer. Maybe they are lazy. Maybe they stole from the employer and the employer was nice enough not to press charges, maybe they were irresponsible or hot tempered. Maybe the employer "regrets" not being able to keep them on board and wishes they could help them move forward in their life.
Simply having the individual do this simple task often convicts them of their sin. And it does so many times by me simply "making the request"...you see their face turn red and their expression drop.
Prudence is not "optional" in the Chrisian life. We are commanded to be prudent and God promises to give us the wisdom and understanding and power we need to live that life he ask us to live.
The reason I believe it starts with the family getting serious about the ways of God is because the Chruch organization is made up of Christians and how they chose to live their homelife will be reflected in how the Chruch as an organization will choose to live it's life. (notice the number of families who "first" violated God's principle of surety and how the chruch has now followed)
Notice the TRUTHS Paul gives us in these instructions.
found in I Cor. 9 (please put these passages in context..because of space I cannot post it all. The context is 1 Cor chapters 8-9
8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 9 As it is written: "He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor; his righteousness endures forever." 10 Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. 11 You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God. 12 This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of God's people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God. 13 Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. 14 And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you. 15 Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!
If you teach your children these principles and live them you will NOT remain very long in a Chruch that does not take God's word seriously enough to "obey it". Your KNOW that they are going to be a safety net for you and your loved ones because when you were able "you" were busy insuring the widows and those in real need were getting the help they needed. You will make SURE your church is in a cooperative with other area Chruches providing first for our own and then for the lost community their basic necessities. (our chruch just spent a month collecting food for our local food bank that operates to first meet the needs of those in our Church family and then those outside the family) The cooperative is a wise thing and can be seen in what Paul was teaching when he took up the collection for the Jeresulam Chruch.
We can all make excuses why it "won't work" to follow God's instructions or we can get busy actually "doing" what God says and watch His might Hand at work in our lives. Then Christians can honestly give a testimoney of God's Faithfulness to provide for us rather than give a testimoney how the government is our provider. God will be glorified.
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/23/2008 8:45:32 AM >
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RE: Christian greed - 8/23/2008 8:51:20 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
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Sorry the post is so long. There are so many principles to learn and learn "how to apply" to your life, your family and the chruch that one cannot honestly put it all in a single post. The "sin" that is rampt in this country concering our understanding and lack of use of stewardship, truly loveing our neighbor in "deed" and work ethic, true accountability among ourselves and etc. id extensive an we need an overhaul.
I think God will clean the chruch one day inorder to remove that from us. The cleaning process is not going to be very pretty.
The last stats I read said only 3 out of every ten professing Christians give a tithe or more to their chruch and/or any charity. Our giving on "average" is 2.5% of our income to "all" charity/chruch. The exact same as is given to a charity by an nonbeliever who has not experienced the sweet taste of the Master's touch. Something is "wrong". The OT law produced more fruit than NT grace?
Too many people professing the name of Christ are living, looking and acting like the world. They don't even realize it.
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/23/2008 8:58:12 AM >
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RE: Christian greed - 8/23/2008 9:03:15 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1936
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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It sounds to me, like that would be one person, taking it upon themselves to decide who is walking a Christian life and who isn't.
If all people offering assistance did this, then people wouldn't receive the kind of help needed. It would put the person in charge of offering assistance in the place of judge. They would be the determining factor, judging whether the help seeker offered help to another.
What one considers as help, may not be considered help to another.
This proposal is one of judgment upon another, without knowing the hearts and experiences of another.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Christian greed - 8/23/2008 9:05:21 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
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http://www.crosswalk.com/finances/507392/
pstrdebi
What Larry is saying in the article you posted is exactly what most of us have been saying. The chruch is in sin because we are not doing what God commanded for us to do and it's hurting the cause of Christ.
Notice some of what he is saying.
At present, the governments of the world account for nearly 95 percent of all the care to the aged, ill, and impoverished, and the evidence shows they are using it as a tool to spread atheism. Is it any wonder that the unsaved are rejecting Christianity? In the matter of caring, it has become just another religion rather than a "faith."
What can we do
Welfare was transferred from the church because the church neglected it. It can be recovered, and the church can become a leader in caring about personal needs. This is not an option from God; it is an imperative. "He who gives to the poor will never want, but he who shuts his eyes will have many curses" (Proverbs 28:27).
Committed Christians should encourage their church leaders to establish a body life ministry. A portion of every church's budget should be designated for needs in the fellowship and in the community. There should also be an outreach to starving people in other countries. If the denomination doesn't have a "care" program, support a good, independent ministry that feeds the hungry.
Each church should have a resource committee set up to counsel families in need, to determine who does and does not qualify. There should be such an atmosphere of sharing and caring that members would feel as free to share a financial burden as they would a physical burden. Ultimately, within the Christian community there should be health and child care centers, vocational training centers, and employment agencies, so that when faced with needs from within the Christian community or the secular community we could respond without relying on government help.
To learn more about God's financial principles or to learn how to set up a benevolance program in your own chruch you can find help at.
www.crown.org
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/23/2008 9:49:14 AM >
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RE: Christian greed - 8/23/2008 9:14:17 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
It sounds to me, like that would be one person, taking it upon themselves to decide who is walking a Christian life and who isn't.
No it's not like that at all. Most chruches have benevolance committes with biblically trained members who have a host of resources at their disposal. Most chruches don't give the power to give out church funds without there being a "group" agreement. (of the committee members)
quote:
If all people offering assistance did this, then people wouldn't receive the kind of help needed. It would put the person in charge of offering assistance in the place of judge. They would be the determining factor, judging whether the help seeker offered help to another.
What one considers as help, may not be considered help to another.
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The Church should be walking in God's wisdom and understanding. I don't worry about people falling through the cracks as they do with govermental agencies or the chruch enabling people to continue to live in sin if the Chruch, committee and individual are walking in the spirit.
For many people they may not need "money" rather they need a "job". Sometimes they "need" medical insurance and so on. The committee is the group who have at their disposal secret angels....those are the people in the Christian community who are able to offer these types of things. That is so much better than a "hand out".
quote:
This proposal is one of judgment upon another, without knowing the hearts and experiences of another
It about helping people learn and obey God's word. It's about spiritural wisdom and discernment.
It "requires" us as believers to give of ourselves and our resources to another in the name of Christ. It's an act of obedience and love. It requires of a believer that they become active in the life of another believer and give of themselves.
It's so easy to "just let the government" take care of the poor. Biblical giving requires something "of us" and it requires that "we" uphold those same principles in our life.....because we "are" being judged by those same biblical standards.
Here is a good article from Crown on accountability
http://www.crown.org/LIBRARY/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=500
Notice in the article that someone paid off the womans car loan. That is one of those "secret angels" I was talking about. God have "gifted" people with the gift of giving in our body. They often cannot give to people they should because those people ran to the government for help or didn't want to be held accountable for their actions.
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/23/2008 9:35:13 AM >
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RE: Christian greed - 8/23/2008 10:10:31 AM
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sparkleingsnow
Posts: 3767
Joined: 1/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Original: zoebob
quote:
Original: sparkleingsnow
quote:
Original: rcjames
So obiously those that work iniquity are not "Chrisitans) even if they think they are.
Original: Liveloved
I could have put 'Christian' in quotes because like RC has pointed out, Christians do not live this way. But many who say they are do. Will most of those who call themselves by Christ's name not be found in heaven?
!?! I know there is a verse that tells us not to question someone elses salvation. But for now the verse, judge not ... comes to mind.
Actually, the verse is "judge not lest you be judged" If you are willing to be judged by the standard you are imposing on others it is OK. We are supposed to hold Christians accountable.
Now putting on my moderator hat:
Questioning the salvation of other forums members is a TOS. Just a gentle nudge.
Yes zoebob, we are to lovingly hold each other accountable. To correct each other, to help each other, to encourage each other. But I fail to see where questioning someones salvation is doing any of that.
And I have to say I'm as guilty of judging sometimes as anyone else. While I believe that what I said is correct, my post was not done in a loving way, and for that I am sorry.
As far as our understanding of the following scripture, I guess we have a different understanding.
Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
If I understand what you are saying right, your saying it's ok to judge as long as your willing to be judged by the same standard.
My understanding is it it telling us not to judge. More of a warning not to judge than a standard.
God Bless
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
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RE: Christian greed - 8/23/2008 10:38:19 AM
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zoebob
Posts: 8783
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
For those of you who are opposed to all government assistance what would you recommend of someone who has a sudden change in circumstances so that they are in temporary need of assistance while they get back on their feet again: such as through job loss, sudden disability, etc. if their family and/or church are unable or unwilling to help.
Great quesiton. First we need to see if there is "sin" hiding in the life of the individual, family, christian friends and chruch. We want to "remove" that sin.
We turn to scripture. God teaches us that if we don't have relatives who live near us to help us in our time of need we are to turn to our friends. Even keeping friendships with our father's friends.
So the first question I ask people who are desiring help:
Please write out for me a list of those whom you have helped over the years. Give a brief description of what you have done for them and their phone number.
Then I ask them to give me the name and phone number of their Sunday School/Bible Teacher and their chruch treasurer. I ask this because those people "should know" if you have been a faithful supporter of your church.
Then I ask for the name and phone numbers of their family members. The reason for that is to uncover any "sin" that may be causing the person to not be able to work, get a job or hold a job or handle the money they do earn. I also want to meet with the family to teach "them" what God calls them to do as Christians. I want to see if they just talk the talk of the Christian life or do they actively walk the walk.
I ask for the name a phone numbers of their last employers. What insight might they be able to offer. Maybe they are lazy. Maybe they stole from the employer and the employer was nice enough not to press charges, maybe they were irresponsible or hot tempered. Maybe the employer "regrets" not being able to keep them on board and wishes they could help them move forward in their life.
Simply having the individual do this simple task often convicts them of their sin. And it does so many times by me simply "making the request"...you see their face turn red and their expression drop.
Prudence is not "optional" in the Chrisian life. We are commanded to be prudent and God promises to give us the wisdom and understanding and power we need to live that life he ask us to live.
The reason I believe it starts with the family getting serious about the ways of God is because the Chruch organization is made up of Christians and how they chose to live their homelife will be reflected in how the Chruch as an organization will choose to live it's life. (notice the number of families who "first" violated God's principle of surety and how the chruch has now followed)
Notice the TRUTHS Paul gives us in these instructions.
found in I Cor. 9 (please put these passages in context..because of space I cannot post it all. The context is 1 Cor chapters 8-9
8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 9 As it is written: "He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor; his righteousness endures forever." 10 Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. 11 You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God. 12 This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of God's people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God. 13 Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. 14 And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you. 15 Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!
If you teach your children these principles and live them you will NOT remain very long in a Chruch that does not take God's word seriously enough to "obey it". Your KNOW that they are going to be a safety net for you and your loved ones because when you were able "you" were busy insuring the widows and those in real need were getting the help they needed. You will make SURE your church is in a cooperative with other area Chruches providing first for our own and then for the lost community their basic necessities. (our chruch just spent a month collecting food for our local food bank that operates to first meet the needs of those in our Church family and then those outside the family) The cooperative is a wise thing and can be seen in what Paul was teaching when he took up the collection for the Jeresulam Chruch.
We can all make excuses why it "won't work" to follow God's instructions or we can get busy actually "doing" what God says and watch His might Hand at work in our lives. Then Christians can honestly give a testimoney of God's Faithfulness to provide for us rather than give a testimoney how the government is our provider. God will be glorified.
Sounds like you think we should only help those who have been helping others:
Here are some examples of what I am talking about. Same basic setup: SAHM: maybe with young children not yet in school. They are getting by on husband's income but not a lot of extras. Suddenly:
1. Husband comes down with illness that prevents him from working and maybe lands him in the hospital.
2. Husband is in some kind of accident that lands him in the hospital and cutting off income and incurring lots of medical expenses or even just extra expenses related to change in routing.
3. Wife does or becomes suddenly ill and now husband must pay for child care for young children, not to mention possible funeral expenses.
4. Husband dies leaving young widow with funeral expenses and no income. Things like SS and insurance take several months to get started.
5. Husband is controling of money and finances and suddenly leaves household with essentially no money in bank and no income.
By the time a person does all you ask and it is checked out it may be too late. OTOH, social services can have things provided in just a few days.
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: Christian greed - 8/23/2008 11:05:27 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Sounds like you think we should only help those who have been helping others:
I am reading your post line by line so this is as far as I have gotten and want to correct this. No I am not saying we only help those who have been helping others. "One" of the reasons we ask those types of questions is for "self inspection". We want the individual/family to face the cold hard facts about "themselves" and how have "they" been helping. More times than not they are not and have not honestly given anyone else any real help. We want them to "see this in themselves" and repent of that sin. It's not about us be "judgmental" it's about helping them see themselves very clear. (Jesus used this technique when he spoke to the woman at the well and asked about her husband) Our goal is that once they have repented of that sin (if it exist) and they are back on their feet it's time for them to do some sacrificial giving.
quote:
1. Husband comes down with illness that prevents him from working and maybe lands him in the hospital.
2. Husband is in some kind of accident that lands him in the hospital and cutting off income and incurring lots of medical expenses or even just extra expenses related to change in routing.
3. Wife does or becomes suddenly ill and now husband must pay for child care for young children, not to mention possible funeral expenses.
4. Husband dies leaving young widow with funeral expenses and no income. Things like SS and insurance take several months to get started.
5. Husband is controling of money and finances and suddenly leaves household with essentially no money in bank and no income.
By the time a person does all you ask and it is checked out it may be too late. OTOH, social services can have things provided in just a few days.
What you have described above are "emergency" situations to being with but most seem to also carry with it some longterm intervention. That is very common. Most of the time the Benevolance committee will have a quick face to face meeting with the responsible adult to figure out their immediate needs, then a quick "phone meeting" with the other members to decide how much money and what types of other services we can offer the family in need. Sometimes we have "existing Christian agencies" already set up to give them even better care and assistance than we an individual chruch can give.
The last one with the husband leaving the wife and kids is one that I have had to deal with all too often. It requires immediate action. I know of several people right off hand who can come into her home and help her set up a budget, offer her free child care services, give the family free cloths, school supplies and food. I know people who will "cut a check" to help to with immediate needs. We also have ways to help her get a car and job training or a job if she needs one. If no job is avaliable then we offer her ways to earn money doing ministry in some of our chruches, in the homes of some of our widows and disabled folks or she herself may need to get involved in a co-op with other mothers exchanging baby sitting services. We even have ways to provide her with free legal advise, free CPA advise and free professional counseling. We also have ways to help her get a college educaiton if she needs one. We help her find affordable medical insurance so the family has their medical needs covered. (if the mother cannot afford to pay for the policy we are able to or know how to get it paid for)
Most of the commitees I have been on allow the members to give a quick $100.00 to those we know who are in immediate need and for those times when we cannot contact one another we either give from our own funds or contact some of those secret angels we know of and ask them for some quick cash or advise.
Can you tell that my passion is for the Chruch - the Bride of Christ - to be a beacon to the world that we do "love one another in both word and deed"?  That is at the "heart" of this.
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/23/2008 11:18:00 AM >
_____________________________
“Tolerance is the virture of the man with no convictions.” G.K. Chesterton
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RE: Christian greed - 8/23/2008 11:30:30 AM
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sparkleingsnow
Posts: 3767
Joined: 1/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Original: P31W
Great quesiton. First we need to see if there is "sin" hiding in the life of the individual, family, christian friends and chruch. We want to "remove" that sin.
We turn to scripture. God teaches us that if we don't have relatives who live near us to help us in our time of need we are to turn to our friends. Even keeping friendships with our father's friends.
So the first question I ask people who are desiring help:
Please write out for me a list of those whom you have helped over the years. Give a brief description of what you have done for them and their phone number.
Then I ask them to give me the name and phone number of their Sunday School/Bible Teacher and their chruch treasurer. I ask this because those people "should know" if you have been a faithful supporter of your church.
Then I ask for the name and phone numbers of their family members. The reason for that is to uncover any "sin" that may be causing the person to not be able to work, get a job or hold a job or handle the money they do earn. I also want to meet with the family to teach "them" what God calls them to do as Christians. I want to see if they just talk the talk of the Christian life or do they actively walk the walk.
I ask for the name a phone numbers of their last employers. What insight might they be able to offer. Maybe they are lazy. Maybe they stole from the employer and the employer was nice enough not to press charges, maybe they were irresponsible or hot tempered. Maybe the employer "regrets" not being able to keep them on board and wishes they could help them move forward in their life.
Simply having the individual do this simple task often convicts them of their sin. And it does so many times by me simply "making the request"...you see their face turn red and their expression drop.
Perhaps they're faces turn red and their expression drops because they are embarrassed and humilated to have to ask for help. Perhaps the thought of you contacting so many people( and as far as they know may tell them of their troubles), is even more embarrassing and humilating.
Based on the following scripture, I don't see where we are instructed to make sure that someone's troubles are not caused by sin and are sin-free before we are to help them.
Luke 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, 28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. 29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. 30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. 31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. 32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. 34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
I agree that there are people who use and abuse "the system", and that it can be a bad wittness to nonbelievers. Thank you Liveloved for pointing that out. But in a lot of cases we just don't know what is going on in a persons life, or why they have the needs they do. And we can't know unless we have walked a mile in they're shoes. I think unkind, unloving, uncaring attitudes are a far worse wittness to nonbelievers, and a stumbling block to many.
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
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RE: Christian greed - 8/23/2008 11:52:36 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Perhaps they're faces turn red and their expression drops because they are embarrassed and humilated to have to ask for help. Perhaps the thought of you contacting so many people( and as far as they know may tell them of their troubles), is even more embarrassing and humilating.
Why should they be embarrassed and humilated to ask for financial help? That's Satan at work. You would not be embarrased if your house was on fire to seek help, call a neighbor if you fail and broke your hip and needed medical assistance. Learning to admit our weaknesses and our "need" for one another is not something to be embarrased about.
I came back online because I wanted to add something to what I said to zeobob and your post goes right along with it.
One of the things you want to do is have those people who have recieved benevolance and help from the chruch is join the "team" even if they are not needed on the committee. You want these people who have "been there and done that" and come out with a glorious testimoney to be able to work with these people.
For example I am a business person. I know what it's like to pay your employees and discover "you" have no money left over to feed your family. I have been there and done that. I like to help people in new business ventures.
I also know what it's like to have a disabled husband (tons of medical bills and they keep growing as you desperately try to get your loved on the help they need to survive) with a baby in arms and no income coming into the household other than what can be gather here and there. Been there and done that. Come out with a life changing testimoney of God's faithfulness and ability to provide.
This is not about "guilt" it's about true freedom in the Lord. It's about growth in the Lord.
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RE: Christian greed - 8/23/2008 11:56:06 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Give to every man that asketh of thee
OK so I will bite. Send me some money. I am asking for a hundred dollars. Surely you can send me ten dollars per week.
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31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
Do you wish for the Chruch to enable you to sin? Or do you want the chruch to help you grow in the Lord?
The passage is about making disciples. Being willing to give it all up inorder to bring people to Christ. God did not ask us to be slapped around for nothing. Our goal is to bring people to Christ.
Make sure you put the scripture in it's proper context.
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I don't see where we are instructed to make sure that someone's troubles are not caused by sin and are sin-free before we are to help them.
It has nothing to do with a person being "sin free". It's about knowing what you are doing with the resources God has entrusted unto you. It's a serious matter and not to be taken lightly. People are entrusted to our care also. We need to make sure we are responsible stewards. And yes scripture tells us not to enable a person who is in sin. It's there. It's even posted on this thread.
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But in a lot of cases we just don't know what is going on in a persons life, or why they have the needs they do
Why don't you know what is going on in your chruch family members lives? Is it because it's to hard to "get involved" or is it because "they" don't want to allow others to get involved?
It's unloving not to care enough to get involved. Open yourself up and allow others to open up to you.
It's much easier to just "pay your taxes" and let the goverment take care of it. What God calls for us to do is step up to the place, pay our taxes AND provide for the needy. Yep a higher standard.
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/23/2008 12:20:28 PM >
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RE: Christian greed - 8/23/2008 12:33:37 PM
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makarizo
Posts: 2980
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
We need to make sure we are responsible stewards.
perhaps the most "responsible" steward in Luke 16 was the one who safely buried it.
(or maybe not)
Knowing what the resources are... we always seem to think in terms of money- a tiny part of the big picture.
there is a phrase used at the place I work at "that is not my job"
a greedy christian will drive around a parking lot for 20 minutes looking for the closest parking place.... a greedy chrisian will -after parking - walk right by the cart that was left in the middle of the parking lot.
a greedy christian will fight for his own rights and comforts not even considering the the poor/widows/orphans/needy.
"well done my good and faithful servant" Mt 25:23
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RE: Christian greed - 8/23/2008 1:29:15 PM
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sparkleingsnow
Posts: 3767
Joined: 1/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Original: P31W
Why should they be embarrassed and humilated to ask for financial help? That's Satan at work. You would not be embarrased if your house was on fire to seek help, call a neighbor if you fail and broke your hip and needed medical assistance. Learning to admit our weaknesses and our "need" for one another is not something to be embarrased about.
A lot of people are embarrassed and humilated to have to ask for help. It is a humbling experience, and the Lord can use it for that purpose. To make us humble. But I think its unloving and unkind for us to make it any moreso than it already is. You said you've been there and if you felt this way I don't know. I've been there too. When I was injured and unable to work, and had to ack for help from my family, and the state for a time. I found it very humilating to have to ask for help, but as the mother (and only support) of three children I had no choice.
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OK so I will bite. Send me some money. I am asking for a hundred dollars. Surely you can send me ten dollars per week.
Sure, and could you send me $200 as I am also asking? LOL
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31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. Do you wish for the Chruch to enable you to sin? Or do you want the chruch to help you grow in the Lord?
Make sure you put the scripture in it's proper context.
As I did not comment on this verse, I fail to see where I am not useing it in proper context. I also fail to see where do unto others as you would have them do unto you would be seen as the Church enableing someone to sin. It speaks of being kind and loving to others, just as you would want them to treat you.
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It has nothing to do with a person being "sin free". It's about knowing what you are doing with the resources God has entrusted unto you. It's a serious matter and not to be taken lightly. People are entrusted to our care also. We need to make sure we are responsible stewards.
I agree. I guess we just don't agree on how to go about it.
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But in a lot of cases we just don't know what is going on in a persons life, or why they have the needs they do
Why don't you know what is going on in your chruch family members lives? Is it because it's to hard to "get involved" or is it because "they" don't want to allow others to get involved?
It's unloving not to care enough to get involved. Open yourself up and allow others to open up to you.
People share what they choose to share. Being in need can be a very painful, and not something that everyone is willing to share. Some people are very private. Yes, I try to be open to my fellow church members and anything that they may want to share, but I also wouldn't pry if they didn't want to talk about something.
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Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
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RE: Christian greed - 8/23/2008 3:43:14 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1838
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jesus
Mark 9:42
"If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a large millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea."
This suggests that our behaviour can be a stumbling block to weaker 'believers' and cause them to sin (I noticed this passage is not written about non Christians!). It seems that God is not impressed by the wilful and sinful lifestyles of His own people and He likens his dislike of such very strongly to that of it being better that the one who is causing the stumbling in a weaker Christian to be taken away from this life rather than continue as they are doing because they could become a candidate to face the wrath of God for so doing. Very strong and scary words.
God has called us to be involved in the salvation of others, “Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel……“ and we can miss many good opportunities of being a blessing to others both Christian and non Christians alike (and likewise being blessed as a result ourselves) because of how we live. Furthermore, we face God's wrath if we deliberately and continually do what causes another weaker brother or sister to sin.
Little_1,
This is another very worthwhile topic but perhaps belongs in a new thread. Believers causing other (weaker) believers to stumble is something we need to live in awareness of---
In this thread though I was seeking to get us to examine our own lives and see if there were ways in which we are living that could be keeping others from coming into the kingdom. Do they see hypocrisy in us?
I gave an example to try and help others see the kind of blindness that so easily deceives us. And to help us in the application process. I did not intend for that example to become the thread topic.
We need to examine how we are living. Are we living greedily?
I later gave the example of my 'cash stash'. The Lord had to pry my greedy little fingers off that money so He could share it with others in need. I am thankful He did.
But as we have seen through this discussion, it is no wonder that our churches do not address such important topics. Yet Jesus did. So I believe it is important and want to discuss these things in the community of believers. It was a discussion such as this that the Lord used to change my heart and mind regarding abortion. I pray He speaks mightily to some through this discussion as well. Bless you dear sister, LL
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RE: Christian greed - 8/23/2008 7:26:19 PM
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pstrdebi
Posts: 739
Joined: 4/28/2008
From: So. Oregon, by way of So. Cal.
Status: offline
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Thank God that He never takes on the attitude of some when we stretch out our hands to Him.
I praise Him for His faithfulness to us when we are in need... how there is no condemnation in Him!
_____________________________
"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." Acts 17:28a
http://www.therockfellowship.org
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RE: Christian greed - 8/24/2008 9:11:11 AM
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sparkleingsnow
Posts: 3767
Joined: 1/9/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Original: pstrdebi
Thank God that He never takes on the attitude of some when we stretch out our hands to Him.
I praise Him for His faithfulness to us when we are in need... how there is no condemnation in Him!
Amen
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
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RE: Christian greed - 8/24/2008 9:26:56 AM
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sparkleingsnow
Posts: 3767
Joined: 1/9/2007
Status: offline
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This thread has been unsettling for me. Seeing christians respond in what to me is an unkind and unloving way to others in need. And yet it has caused me to not only look at others attitudes, but my own. Areas in my own life where I fall short.
Thank you Liveloved for this thread.
We need to reflect His love in all we say and do and think, because others are watching! And we can only do this through His power, by drawing ever closer to Him. God Bless.
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Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
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RE: Christian greed - 8/24/2008 10:46:31 AM
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Little_1
Posts: 1459
Status: offline
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Although this thread is all about the topic of 'greed', the Holy Spirit has challenged me concerning different things in my life as a result of postings on this thread quite separate to that of the OP. Although His chastening is not pleasant, His Word tells me it is necessary to produce better fruit.
Praise God that although His chastening is not pleasant, it is none-the-less done with love and mercy and is a sign that we a | | |
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