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U.S. airline pilot sues to get off terror watch list - 8/21/2008 5:28:14 AM
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TheosCentric
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U.S. airline pilot sues to get off terror watch list
HARRISBURG, Pennsylvania - A commercial airline pilot and convert to Islam who says his name is on the U.S. government's secret terrorist watch list has fought back, filing a federal lawsuit against the Homeland Security Department and various other federal agencies.
Erich Scherfen says that unless his name is removed the list, he faces losing not only his job but the ability to make a living in his chosen profession.
"My livelihood depends on being off this list," Scherfen told reporters Tuesday after his lawyers filed the lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Harrisburg.
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"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: U.S. airline pilot sues to get off terror watch list - 8/21/2008 7:19:15 AM
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Rockwall
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There is another thread started 2 days ago about a pilot who is on the TSA list and shouldn't have been: http://forums.thewordfm.com/I_feel_much_safer_now!/m_3725177/mpage_1/tm.htm#3728825
Once a mistake was found, common sense should prevailed and these pilots names should have been removed from the TSA list.
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Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely
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RE: U.S. airline pilot sues to get off terror watch list - 8/21/2008 8:20:21 AM
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TheosCentric
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Thanks. I attempted to find another thread on this, but didn't.
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"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: U.S. airline pilot sues to get off terror watch list - 8/21/2008 9:48:54 AM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rockwall
There is another thread started 2 days ago about a pilot who is on the TSA list and shouldn't have been: http://forums.thewordfm.com/I_feel_much_safer_now!/m_3725177/mpage_1/tm.htm#3728825
Once a mistake was found, common sense should prevailed and these pilots names should have been removed from the TSA list.
They are two seperate cases with different issues. One is a 4-star general on the list and another is apparently on the list due to religious affiliation.
From the article (my bold):
A New Jersey native, Scherfen, 37, said he believes his name was placed on a watch list because he converted to Islam in 1994 — even though he is a Gulf War combat veteran. Both he and his Pakistan-born wife, who is also a Muslim, said they have no criminal records or ties to terrorists.
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RE: U.S. airline pilot sues to get off terror watch list - 8/21/2008 10:17:14 AM
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Rockwall
Posts: 417
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: Rockwall
There is another thread started 2 days ago about a pilot who is on the TSA list and shouldn't have been: http://forums.thewordfm.com/I_feel_much_safer_now!/m_3725177/mpage_1/tm.htm#3728825
Once a mistake was found, common sense should prevailed and these pilots names should have been removed from the TSA list.
They are two seperate cases with different issues. One is a 4-star general on the list and another is apparently on the list due to religious affiliation.
From the article (my bold):
A New Jersey native, Scherfen, 37, said he believes his name was placed on a watch list because he converted to Islam in 1994 — even though he is a Gulf War combat veteran. Both he and his Pakistan-born wife, who is also a Muslim, said they have no criminal records or ties to terrorists.
I am fully aware that these are 2 separate cases; 2 separate cases within a 2 day period. Obviously something is wrong with the system and once they found out a mistake was made they should correct the situation asap. They should not have to jump through hoops and rings of fire in order to restore there name and be allowed to fly.
_____________________________
Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely
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RE: U.S. airline pilot sues to get off terror watch list - 8/21/2008 5:03:07 PM
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mapachito13
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My cousin in Mexico had the same name as some drug mafioso the gov't was looking for. Every time he traveled to the US to visit he got "detained for questioning". This went on for years before he got it cleared up even though they had the fingerprints and DNA of the bad guy.
Those glorified security guards in the TSA couldn't spot a terrorist even if he came up and introduced himself.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: U.S. airline pilot sues to get off terror watch list - 8/22/2008 1:04:35 PM
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_jjp_
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Another way of looking at it:
99.999999% of the hundreds of thousands of other traveling Americans have had no problems.
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RE: U.S. airline pilot sues to get off terror watch list - 8/22/2008 1:08:27 PM
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_jjp_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
My cousin in Mexico had the same name as some drug mafioso the gov't was looking for. Every time he traveled to the US to visit he got "detained for questioning". This went on for years before he got it cleared up even though they had the fingerprints and DNA of the bad guy.
I can't believe the border/customs agents didn't just use their instant result fingerprint matching/ DNA lab to clear him everytime.
In all seriousness stopping people who are suspicious, and having the name of a known drug lord coming from the same region is suspicious, is why we hire these people then when they actually do their job we treat them like dirt.
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RE: U.S. airline pilot sues to get off terror watch list - 8/22/2008 1:55:14 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3960
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
Another way of looking at it:
99.999999% of the hundreds of thousands of other traveling Americans have had no problems.
I'm sure that the American citizen and war veteran is comforted by your concern. Do you have the same sympathy for the retired 4-star general on the list? Support the Troops!... or not.
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RE: U.S. airline pilot sues to get off terror watch list - 8/22/2008 2:06:17 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: Rockwall
There is another thread started 2 days ago about a pilot who is on the TSA list and shouldn't have been: http://forums.thewordfm.com/I_feel_much_safer_now!/m_3725177/mpage_1/tm.htm#3728825
Once a mistake was found, common sense should prevailed and these pilots names should have been removed from the TSA list.
They are two seperate cases with different issues. One is a 4-star general on the list and another is apparently on the list due to religious affiliation.
From the article (my bold):
A New Jersey native, Scherfen, 37, said he believes his name was placed on a watch list because he converted to Islam in 1994 — even though he is a Gulf War combat veteran. Both he and his Pakistan-born wife, who is also a Muslim, said they have no criminal records or ties to terrorists.
Except that the article specifically quotes TSA as declaring that religious affiliation had no impact:
"Transportation Security Administration spokeswoman Ann Davis said the TSA gets watch lists from the FBI and requires airlines to cross-check the lists before issuing passengers boarding passes.
While declining comment on the lawsuit, Davis said "religious and political affiliation does not impact whether an individual is placed" on a list. "
Unless, of course, the TSA is simply lying (they do work for George Bush, after all) to cover getting caught their overt racism (religiousism).
In all seriousness, what i want to know is - if this combat vet, airline pilot, American citizen, blameless record, can be placed on The List for no apparent reason, what makes ANYONE think they are safe? And what kind of country is it that can destroy your reputation and your livelihood without trial, without a hearing, and without even having to explain their actions?
When did my country change its name to "United States of Amerika"?
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RE: U.S. airline pilot sues to get off terror watch list - 8/22/2008 4:07:59 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 489
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
Another way of looking at it:
99.999999% of the hundreds of thousands of other traveling Americans have had no problems.
I'm sure that the American citizen and war veteran is comforted by your concern. Do you have the same sympathy for the retired 4-star general on the list? Support the Troops!... or not.
I wholeheartedly support these two men being removed from the watch list but their issue does not invalidate the entire system. The overwhelming majority of passengers are not inconvenienced one iota by the system.
Support the troops? This isn't about supporting the troops this is about a single man who happens to be a retired general whom i happen to support in his endeavor to be removed from the list. Having been one i do support the troops.
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RE: U.S. airline pilot sues to get off terror watch list - 8/22/2008 4:11:19 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 489
Joined: 10/25/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
In all seriousness, what i want to know is - if this combat vet, airline pilot, American citizen, blameless record, can be placed on The List for no apparent reason, what makes ANYONE think they are safe? And what kind of country is it that can destroy your reputation and your livelihood without trial, without a hearing, and without even having to explain their actions?
What i want to know is why people feel threatened by a list that has inconvenienced a very few people, a very, very small, fractional percentage of the traveling public has anything to worry about.
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RE: U.S. airline pilot sues to get off terror watch list - 8/22/2008 4:15:09 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 1571
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: The North Woods
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quote:
They are two seperate cases with different issues. One is a 4-star general on the list and another is apparently on the list due to religious affiliation.
Who manages these lists? The Three Stooges? I wonder if Nelson Mandela's name has been removed yet?
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In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: U.S. airline pilot sues to get off terror watch list - 8/22/2008 4:21:04 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
In all seriousness, what i want to know is - if this combat vet, airline pilot, American citizen, blameless record, can be placed on The List for no apparent reason, what makes ANYONE think they are safe? And what kind of country is it that can destroy your reputation and your livelihood without trial, without a hearing, and without even having to explain their actions?
What i want to know is why people feel threatened by a list that has inconvenienced a very few people, a very, very small, fractional percentage of the traveling public has anything to worry about.
The flips side of:
In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
is
"As you did for the least of these, so you did it for Me."
Injustice - random, unchallengeable, and so destructive in its casualness and affects - should be a concern to anyone.
Quite aside from the fact that it might be ANYONE who gets falsely accused next time. Even you.
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RE: U.S. airline pilot sues to get off terror watch list - 8/22/2008 4:25:54 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 489
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
In all seriousness, what i want to know is - if this combat vet, airline pilot, American citizen, blameless record, can be placed on The List for no apparent reason, what makes ANYONE think they are safe? And what kind of country is it that can destroy your reputation and your livelihood without trial, without a hearing, and without even having to explain their actions?
What i want to know is why people feel threatened by a list that has inconvenienced a very few people, a very, very small, fractional percentage of the traveling public has anything to worry about.
The flips side of:
In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
is
"As you did for the least of these, so you did it for Me."
Injustice - random, unchallengeable, and so destructive in its casualness and affects - should be a concern to anyone.
Quite aside from the fact that it might be ANYONE who gets falsely accused next time. Even you.
Is there any proof that either of these men's names ended up on the list purposefully? If not then your analogy holds no water. I agree that anyone of us could end up accidentally on the list due to a glitch in the system but that does not invalidate the system unless it affects a significant portion of travelers. There is no perfect system but that doesn't mean that we should just throw our hands up and do nothing
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RE: U.S. airline pilot sues to get off terror watch list - 8/22/2008 4:36:52 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
In all seriousness, what i want to know is - if this combat vet, airline pilot, American citizen, blameless record, can be placed on The List for no apparent reason, what makes ANYONE think they are safe? And what kind of country is it that can destroy your reputation and your livelihood without trial, without a hearing, and without even having to explain their actions?
What i want to know is why people feel threatened by a list that has inconvenienced a very few people, a very, very small, fractional percentage of the traveling public has anything to worry about.
The flips side of:
In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
is
"As you did for the least of these, so you did it for Me."
Injustice - random, unchallengeable, and so destructive in its casualness and affects - should be a concern to anyone.
Quite aside from the fact that it might be ANYONE who gets falsely accused next time. Even you.
Is there any proof that either of these men's names ended up on the list purposefully? If not then your analogy holds no water. I agree that anyone of us could end up accidentally on the list due to a glitch in the system but that does not invalidate the system unless it affects a significant portion of travelers. There is no perfect system but that doesn't mean that we should just throw our hands up and do nothing
"Who cares if a few innocent bystanders get swept up in the machinery, with no recourse short of suing in Federal court (*)"
is a complete refutation of every American principle of due process, fair play, and equal protection under the law, and is a position perhaps more without a moral basis than the 'do nothing' false dilemma.
Clearly, what is needed here is a system which BOTH adequately addresses the security needs of the travelling public AND has a due-process mechanism by which the falsely accused can remedy the situation, or better yet, are not falsely accused in the first place.
Seven years post-911 and the Bush administration has YET to put in a sceening system which people can believe does an adequate job of securing the desired security.
Ben Franklin would be spinning in his grave, if he could stop laughing long enough.
(*) if even that turns out to enough to clear their names.
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RE: U.S. airline pilot sues to get off terror watch list - 8/22/2008 4:45:19 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7831
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
I always thought this version was more appropos for today's world:
When they came for the smokers I kept silent because I don't smoke. When they came for the meat eaters I kept silent because I'm a vegetarian. When they came for the gun owners I kept silent because I'm a pacifist. When they came for the drivers I kept silent because I'm a bicyclist. They never did come for me. I'm still here because there's nobody left in the secret police except sissies with rickets.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: U.S. airline pilot sues to get off terror watch list - 8/22/2008 6:02:29 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7831
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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I think this is more about the general failure of large centralized bureaucracies than it is some portent of Big Brother-ism. The fact is, large centralized bureaucracies are generally incompetent when it comes to managing this sort of minutia, not threatening.
I suppose we could simply not attempt to track terrorists at all, but then the same people who are complaining about the occasional misstep like this will be angry that the government 'didn't do more' when the next building full of people explodes.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: U.S. airline pilot sues to get off terror watch list - 8/22/2008 6:17:48 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2498
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I think this is more about the general failure of large centralized bureaucracies than it is some portent of Big Brother-ism. The fact is, large centralized bureaucracies are generally incompetent when it comes to managing this sort of minutia, not threatening.
I suppose we could simply not attempt to track terrorists at all, but then the same people who are complaining about the occasional misstep like this will be angry that the government 'didn't do more' when the next building full of people explodes.
Well that just made me feel so much better about a system that'll treat a person like a suspected drug lord for years when a simple fingerprint should have cleared it up!
As long as we are safe and snug in our homes who cares how many people's rights we trample on. He's not an American anyway! Why should he expect to be treated with any dignity! The nerve of that foreigner demanding human rights! Next time they complain it's off to Gitmo!
BTW, Oklahoma City was perpetrated by two American citizens who were white if you haven't forgotten. So no demographic is free of potential "terrorists".
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: U.S. airline pilot sues to get off terror watch list - 8/22/2008 6:29:41 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7831
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
Well that just made me feel so much better about a system that'll treat a person like a suspected drug lord for years when a simple fingerprint should have cleared it up!
As long as we are safe and snug in our homes who cares how many people's rights we trample on. He's not an American anyway! Why should he expect to be treated with any dignity! The nerve of that foreigner demanding human rights! Next time they complain it's off to Gitmo!
See, that's actually the sort of over-reaction that diminishes legitimate complaints. The guy isn't being 'hauled off to gitmo' or 'being treated like a suspected drug lord' he is being stimied by a typically bureaucratic system.
My mother got notices for years over a single presumed SS over-payment after my father's death; the sort of thing that that was called about, wrote about, dealt with in a myriad of ways before it was cleared up. Does that mean the government was out to get her? Or that the SS system should be eliminated? (well, come to think of it..).
No, it means that bureaucracies are innefficient, not neccesarily nefarious. And they never treat people with 'dignity', because 'they' are large, cumbersome machine-like entitites designed to do repetitive tasks - they aren't anyone's mommy.
So it's sad that this guy is going through what he is going through, and it's inconvenient he will have to go through those hoops - but in the government doesn't work any other way, and liberals don't trust private enterprise.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: U.S. airline pilot sues to get off terror watch list - 8/22/2008 6:43:25 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2498
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Well that just made me feel so much better about a system that'll treat a person like a suspected drug lord for years when a simple fingerprint should have cleared it up!
As long as we are safe and snug in our homes who cares how many people's rights we trample on. He's not an American anyway! Why should he expect to be treated with any dignity! The nerve of that foreigner demanding human rights! Next time they complain it's off to Gitmo!
See, that's actually the sort of over-reaction that diminishes legitimate complaints. The guy isn't being 'hauled off to gitmo' or 'being treated like a suspected drug lord' he is being stimied by a typically bureaucratic system.
My mother got notices for years over a single presumed SS over-payment after my father's death; the sort of thing that that was called about, wrote about, dealt with in a myriad of ways before it was cleared up. Does that mean the government was out to get her? Or that the SS system should be eliminated? (well, come to think of it..).
No, it means that bureaucracies are innefficient, not neccesarily nefarious. And they never treat people with 'dignity', because 'they' are large, cumbersome machine-like entitites designed to do repetitive tasks - they aren't anyone's mommy.
So it's sad that this guy is going through what he is going through, and it's inconvenient he will have to go through those hoops - but in the government doesn't work any other way, and liberals don't trust private enterprise.
Being detained and grilled by federal agents is reduced to being stymied?  You try that some time on a repeated basis and then we'll see if you just "feel stymied".
BTW, did they haul your mother before a couple of agents with guns who used threats and intimidation to bully her to try and resolve her SS problem? My guess would be no.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: U.S. airline pilot sues to get off terror watch list - 8/22/2008 6:52:18 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7831
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
Being detained and grilled by federal agents is reduced to being stymied? You try that some time on a repeated basis and then we'll see if you just "feel stymied".
BTW, did they haul your mother before a couple of agents with guns who used threats and intimidation to bully her to try and resolve her SS problem? My guess would be no.
Actually, my mother at age 80, in a wheelchair, was pulled aside at an airport, made to stand-up, and given the once over with a wand and patted down. The reason she was not simply because government bureaucracies are big and dumb, but because liberals are so intent at not offending anyone that they can't limit themselves to people who are most likely to commit terrorist acts. So before you keep whining about how 'unfair' these bureaucracies are, you better be prepared to accept the criteria that would make them more effective.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: U.S. airline pilot sues to get off terror watch list - 8/22/2008 7:01:01 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2498
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Being detained and grilled by federal agents is reduced to being stymied? You try that some time on a repeated basis and then we'll see if you just "feel stymied".
BTW, did they haul your mother before a couple of agents with guns who used threats and intimidation to bully her to try and resolve her SS problem? My guess would be no.
Actually, my mother at age 80, in a wheelchair, was pulled aside at an airport, made to stand-up, and given the once over with a wand and patted down. The reason she was not simply because government bureaucracies are big and dumb, but because liberals are so intent at not offending anyone that they can't limit themselves to people who are most likely to commit terrorist acts. So before you keep whining about how 'unfair' these bureaucracies are, you better be prepared to accept the criteria that would make them more effective.
I am sorry your mom had to go through that. It was probably both physically painful for her as well as the embrrassment good people feel when being treated like a criminal. But TSA & DHS would tell you that wheelchairs can be used to hide bomb making materials or drugs and their have been many a grandma convicted of that.
BTW, Oklahoma City was perpetrated by two white guys and McVeigh was ex-military so if you're Irish or a white male or an ex soldier you could be deemed to "fit the profile of a terrorist"! No demographic is deemed untainted by our awesome security specialists.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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