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[Poll]
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Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness?
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| disease |
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| addiction |
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| weakness |
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| all three |
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| none of the above |
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Total Votes : 59
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(last vote on : 10/6/2008 8:29:54 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/28/2008 7:55:47 AM
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manda59
Posts: 5999
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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My definition of an alcoholic is anyone who, at any given time, having had one alcoholic drink, *can't* stop there, *can't* say no to a second. Or even, once the person has thought of having an alcoholic drink, can't *not* have it.
IMO it's primarily an addiction, can be a disease if there is a genetic predisposition. Weakness, sure, but we all have weaknesses, we are weak fallen people. But the problem isn't so much the addiction etc, but the choice that the person makes once they discover that they have a problem, ie whether to seek help or carry on. Or rewinding even further, even just admitting they have a problem, rather than rationalising it or making excuses.
What it really is is just one of our many broken cisterns.
Jeremiah 2v13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.
God created us with deep longings, deep needs - security, significance and a sense of worth. We're designed to have those needs met perfectly in Him. But because we are not just image-bearers, but fallen image-bearers, we tend to not go directly to God to meet those needs, but we look to each other or to things to deal with those needs instead. Alcohol "deals with" those needs by suppressing them, blocking them out.
True recovery comes when the person chooses, not necessarily to stop drinking, but to allow God, the fountain of living waters, to meet those needs instead. And when He does that, He heals the heart and soul of the person, He doesn't just stop them drinking. Because if an alcoholic stops drinking without having been healed inside, they either become a dry drunk or they become dependent on something or someone else instead. Only God can truly deliver someone from any kind of addiction.
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/28/2008 8:25:35 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1936
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
God created us with deep longings, deep needs - security, significance and a sense of worth. We're designed to have those needs met perfectly in Him. But because we are not just image-bearers, but fallen image-bearers, we tend to not go directly to God to meet those needs, but we look to each other or to things to deal with those needs instead. Alcohol "deals with" those needs by suppressing them, blocking them out.
True recovery comes when the person chooses, not necessarily to stop drinking, but to allow God, the fountain of living waters, to meet those needs instead. And when He does that, He heals the heart and soul of the person, He doesn't just stop them drinking. Because if an alcoholic stops drinking without having been healed inside, they either become a dry drunk or they become dependent on something or someone else instead. Only God can truly deliver someone from any kind of addiction.
Excellent post!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/28/2008 10:09:12 PM
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ddave12000
Posts: 77
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
My definition of an alcoholic is anyone who, at any given time, having had one alcoholic drink, *can't* stop there, *can't* say no to a second. Or even, once the person has thought of having an alcoholic drink, can't *not* have it.
IMO it's primarily an addiction, can be a disease if there is a genetic predisposition. Weakness, sure, but we all have weaknesses, we are weak fallen people. But the problem isn't so much the addiction etc, but the choice that the person makes once they discover that they have a problem, ie whether to seek help or carry on. Or rewinding even further, even just admitting they have a problem, rather than rationalising it or making excuses.
What it really is is just one of our many broken cisterns.
Jeremiah 2v13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.
God created us with deep longings, deep needs - security, significance and a sense of worth. We're designed to have those needs met perfectly in Him. But because we are not just image-bearers, but fallen image-bearers, we tend to not go directly to God to meet those needs, but we look to each other or to things to deal with those needs instead. Alcohol "deals with" those needs by suppressing them, blocking them out.
True recovery comes when the person chooses, not necessarily to stop drinking, but to allow God, the fountain of living waters, to meet those needs instead. And when He does that, He heals the heart and soul of the person, He doesn't just stop them drinking. Because if an alcoholic stops drinking without having been healed inside, they either become a dry drunk or they become dependent on something or someone else instead. Only God can truly deliver someone from any kind of addiction.
Great post, I completely agree.
While I will never say that AA is bad, or hasn't done much good for many people, the thing I personally don't like about AA is that everyone I have met who is part of AA still seems beaten and shackled by their addictions. While they may not be drinking, they wake up everyday telling themselves they are an alcoholic. I don't see freedom in many of their lives. Instead of just making it through the day by drinking, they are just making it through the day on day #xxxx. I believe, and yes this is based on personal experiences and working with many drug and alcohol addicts, that God takes things one step further and can change the very fiber of who we are. I have never seen AA take an alcoholic and make them not an alcoholic, but I have seen God take an alcoholic, a cocaine addict, a heroin addict, etc. and make them a new creation that is not an addict anymore.
II Cor. 5:17.
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/28/2008 11:06:50 PM
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cog41
Posts: 626
Joined: 7/16/2006
From: The Great State of Texas
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quote:
I have never seen AA take an alcoholic and make them not an alcoholic, but I have seen God take an alcoholic, a cocaine addict, a heroin addict, etc. and make them a new creation that is not an addict anymore.
Well, I believe they're still an addict even after they are saved. The desire has been removed or washed away but one taste of temptation and BAM!
My brother started AA today,I'll be watching very closely for the things mentioned here.
_____________________________
Psalm 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: "May they prosper who love you."
Hook'em Horns! Roll Tide!
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/28/2008 11:09:02 PM
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cog41
Posts: 626
Joined: 7/16/2006
From: The Great State of Texas
Status: offline
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Oh, and I do believe it is an addiction.
_____________________________
Psalm 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: "May they prosper who love you."
Hook'em Horns! Roll Tide!
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/28/2008 11:18:02 PM
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manda59
Posts: 5999
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ddave12000
While I will never say that AA is bad, or hasn't done much good for many people, the thing I personally don't like about AA is that everyone I have met who is part of AA still seems beaten and shackled by their addictions. While they may not be drinking, they wake up everyday telling themselves they are an alcoholic. I don't see freedom in many of their lives. Instead of just making it through the day by drinking, they are just making it through the day on day #xxxx. I believe, and yes this is based on personal experiences and working with many drug and alcohol addicts, that God takes things one step further and can change the very fiber of who we are. I have never seen AA take an alcoholic and make them not an alcoholic, but I have seen God take an alcoholic, a cocaine addict, a heroin addict, etc. and make them a new creation that is not an addict anymore.
I absolutely agree with you.
I know that AA can be very helpful for some, but it does seem to keep them in the mindset that they are still enslaved. AND that's quite apart from the fact that "going to meetings" can become an addiction in itself. Whilst it can be good to go to a meeting for support and accountability, some people become dependent on the meetings, which I personally don't think is wholesome.
(And that's quite apart fom the fact that many NA meetings often partly or even mostly comprise dealers who are trying to get themselves cleaned up so that they can get back out there and make money again  )
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/28/2008 11:20:02 PM
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manda59
Posts: 5999
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cog41
Well, I believe they're still an addict even after they are saved. The desire has been removed or washed away but one taste of temptation and BAM!
Not necessarily true at all.
My husband was an alcoholic before he was saved and he is totally delivered. So much so that he can happily enjoy an occasional pint of Guinness or a glass of wine.
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/29/2008 6:19:17 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1936
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
I have seen God take an alcoholic, a cocaine addict, a heroin addict, etc. and make them a new creation that is not an addict anymore.
Amen!
I know that if I were to ever pick up a drink again, I would end up in the same pit I was before. God has delivered me completely. It's his deliverance that I trust, not my own thinking telling me I can have another drink. To me that would be like me testing God to see if what He's done for me is true or not. I just won't venture down that road.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/29/2008 6:52:19 AM
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manda59
Posts: 5999
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
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If that's what's right for you, then that's totally fine. But it's not the same for everyone.
Two years after my husband was saved (and delivered from alcoholism overnight), he went on a missions trip to Zambia; there he was bitten by a tsetse fly. When he returned to the UK he was very weak and had a terrible cough, and his doctor recommend that he drink stout, which is high in iron and very easily absorbed into the system. My dh was anxious about this and prayed about it, not wanting to risk returning to his old life. After praying about it, he felt it was ok to drink the stout. He did, and he got better. That was in the mid-1970s; I met him in 1979, we married in 1983 - we celebrated our Silver Wedding this year. He can take alcohol or leave it; he enjoys the odd Guinness once or twice a year, and the odd glass of wine with a meal (consuming no more than 1 or 2 bottles of wine in total per year, if that).
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/30/2008 6:57:08 AM
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stonek
Posts: 143
Status: offline
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I believe alcoholism is an addiction. I don't believe it is a disease, but one might end up with a disease or another illness as a result of long term drinking. Also, we all have a weaknesses in one area or another, but not so sure to say that everyone has an addiction. I don't think so.
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/30/2008 8:34:48 AM
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cog41
Posts: 626
Joined: 7/16/2006
From: The Great State of Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
Not necessarily true at all.
My husband was an alcoholic before he was saved and he is totally delivered. So much so that he can happily enjoy an occasional pint of Guinness or a glass of wine.
Then I rejoice with you for your husband's deliverence and victory.
There are those who don't have that strength,that freedom,that discipline.
They are free from the day to day temptation and agony but must stay away from close encounters with their old haunts. I know quite a few who have tasted again the fruit of the vine and or barley & hops only to slide down the ole slope into the pit. I agree their only hope and continuos freedom is trusting in the cross,grace and strength of the Lord.
Die daily to self and it's desires.
_____________________________
Psalm 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: "May they prosper who love you."
Hook'em Horns! Roll Tide!
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 9/25/2008 6:04:35 PM
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JazTek
Posts: 46
Joined: 9/13/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ruthie
quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
You are not supposed to suddenly stop taking seritonin reuptake inhibitors.
It can cause an emotional crash.
You have to wean off of them slowly, under a doctor's care.
Bluestone, thank you for your kind concern. I actually am under a doctor's care. Unfortunately, I'm apparently very sensitive to paxil and even weaning slowly is hard. Wish my doctor would have warned me of this possibility.
I'm feeling better today. Reading the Gospel of Luke last night helped.
Everyone, please accept my apologies. I should not have entered into this discussion when I was in such an unstable mood, on a subject that is a sore spot. I certainly should not have been so hostile.
quote:
Bluestone, thank you for your kind concern. I actually am under a doctor's care. Unfortunately, I'm apparently very sensitive to paxil and even weaning slowly is hard. Wish my doctor would have warned me of this possibility.
I'm feeling better today. Reading the Gospel of Luke last night helped.
Everyone, please accept my apologies. I should not have entered into this discussion when I was in such an unstable mood, on a subject that is a sore spot. I certainly should not have been so hostile.
Glad you are feeling better... I'll be praying for you.. 
_____________________________
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"As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord"...
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 9/25/2008 10:46:24 PM
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cwb
Posts: 208
Joined: 1/15/2007
From: Eastern NC
Status: offline
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Learned behavior.
_____________________________
We are to do the will of God from our heart. Eph Ch 6 v. 6
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 9/26/2008 9:05:12 PM
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SweetPea213
Posts: 61
Joined: 2/20/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
Some of the information I am reading says that alcoholism and alcohol abuse are two different things.
That's because they are.
An example of alcohol abuse--A college student goes to parties every weekend, drinks to the point of vomitting and nearly passing out. And this student repeats this behaviour every weekend. But during the rest of the week, the student does not go anywhere near alcohol or touch the stuff. That is abuse.
An example of alcoholism (aka alcohol dependance)--A person drinks all the time, from the moment they wake up to the time they go to sleep. Every day. If that alcohol is taken away, that person will not be able to function. Their body needs that alcohol, it is dependant upon that substance. Over time, that person's body develops a physiological dependance upon alcohol. Once the alcohol is removed, the person will go through withdrawl--which with alcohol is very dangerous.
If a person is going through withdrawls, which are usually involves headaches, nausea, vomitting, and is rather painful--that person is not going to be able to do their job or take care of themselves or their family.
BTW, alcohol withdrawl is extremely dangerous--especially if it is cold turkey. A person can actually die from an alcohol withdrawl, it is the only drug in which that is possible.
_____________________________
"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed." ~ 1 Peter 2:24
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 9/26/2008 9:44:25 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3114
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
An example of alcoholism (aka alcohol dependance)--A person drinks all the time, from the moment they wake up to the time they go to sleep. Every day. If that alcohol is taken away, that person will not be able to function. Their body needs that alcohol, it is dependant upon that substance. Over time, that person's body develops a physiological dependance upon alcohol. Once the alcohol is removed, the person will go through withdrawl--which with alcohol is very dangerous.
I don't agree with this. My Dad was an alcoholic. He didn't drink every day. He usually only drank from Friday after work until Sunday night and every work holiday. But, (and this is key) every time he drank he wouldn't or couldn't stop until he was falling down drunk or passed out. He could function without alcohol during the work week, but he was still very much an alcoholic.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 9/27/2008 7:09:31 AM
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manda59
Posts: 5999
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SweetPea213
That's because they are.
An example of alcohol abuse--A college student goes to parties every weekend, drinks to the point of vomitting and nearly passing out. And this student repeats this behaviour every weekend. But during the rest of the week, the student does not go anywhere near alcohol or touch the stuff. That is abuse.
An example of alcoholism (aka alcohol dependance)--A person drinks all the time, from the moment they wake up to the time they go to sleep. Every day. If that alcohol is taken away, that person will not be able to function. Their body needs that alcohol, it is dependant upon that substance. Over time, that person's body develops a physiological dependance upon alcohol. Once the alcohol is removed, the person will go through withdrawl--which with alcohol is very dangerous.
I also disagree that they are different things.
I refer you to my definition posted at the top of this page:
quote:
My definition of an alcoholic is anyone who, at any given time, having had one alcoholic drink, *can't* stop there, *can't* say no to a second. Or even, once the person has thought of having an alcoholic drink, can't *not* have it.
That covers both of your categories. To think that one is "only" alcohol abuse is very dangerous thinking. I know people who have used that reasoning for years in order to deny that they were alcoholics, and it had caused them untold problems (ie totally delayed them coming to their senses and getting help, and affected their health). The number of times I've heard "I'm not an alcoholic, I don't have to drink every day and I don't get the shakes if I don't drink" to justify what they are doing, it's tragic.
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 10/1/2008 9:22:53 AM
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angelbite
Posts: 22
Joined: 10/1/2008
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
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Salutations All :-)
Addiction is a choice, pure and simple. Addicts are addicted because they have chosen to be and addicts that get clean do it because the choose to, it is all about choice.
Addiction is a behavioural problem how some people think that a behavioural problem can be defined as a disease is beyond me.
No one has proved addiction is a disease. In fact, if a doctor wrote "alcoholism" as a diagnosis, insurance would never pay, as there is no medical condition. When drinking is the problem, stopping drinking is the solution.
Even though you have an alcohol or drug problem, there is nothing wrong with you that prevents you from abstaining.
Planned abstinence is a skill. Anyone can learn it. You may not yet know how to abstain, but you can surely learn.
Whatever problems you may have, they are most likely the result and not the cause of your addiction. When you abstain, they will probably fade or disappear.
Most people who quit substance addictions do it on their own.
Getting help usually means extensive participation in recovery group activities instead of directly learning the skill of abstinence.
There is little if any research showing that getting help helps.
Recovery groups aggravate addictions and cause new problems.
Given the choice, most people prefer independent problem-solving.
Quitting a substance addiction is much easier than it appears to be, or is made out to be.
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 10/1/2008 10:18:20 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6628
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Addicts are addicted because they have chosen to be...
In all my life, I've never met any addict that intended to become one. They have chosen to use substances that are addictive, but I've never known anyone to assert that they woke up one day and thought, "I've got nothing better on my schedule, so I think I'll become an addict today."
quote:
Quitting a substance addiction is much easier than it appears to be, or is made out to be.
Is that a quote from Pollyanna 101 for Junior High? It certainly doesn't sound like experience with or understanding of addiction.
Quitting may be simple but it isn't easy or else there wouldn't be so many failed attempts as getting free.
[Edited to correct my last sentence from "would" to "wouldn't".]
< Message edited by JimboFletch -- 10/1/2008 11:53:32 AM >
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 10/1/2008 10:31:42 AM
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Qtman
Posts: 10086
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
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quote:
Quitting a substance addiction is much easier than it appears to be, or is made out to be.
In the long run there is nothing further from the truth than this statement. I think Jimbo will agree that quiting is the easiest part of the process. The difficulty comes from staying substance free. You can chose to quit and then do so but the problems you face both physically and psychologically are anything but easy. Anyone that believes it is easy have never gone through withdrawal symptoms.
_____________________________
Remember: God loves you and I'm trying!
~rogasinger4Him
Body Piercings
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 10/1/2008 1:39:48 PM
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angelbite
Posts: 22
Joined: 10/1/2008
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
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You sell addicts too short my friend by presuming that they are dumb enough to wake up one day and go oh I think I will get addicted today, and you do the an equal amount of disservice by assuming that they are not intelligent enough to that taking drugs or alcohol time and time again is not going to result in addiction.
Even full on alcoholics who are in the midst of a drinking binge have enough willpower to put alcohol away for another time. They are NOT powerless in the face of addiction, that is an ego deflating, harmful thing to try to teach any individual.
Far more people quit without ANY treatment at all than ever in a 12 Step program or detox or rehab.
The rate of success in AA is absolutely appalling, surely you know this already, I mean after all you speak as if you think you have the sole inside knowledge on addiction and you speak too soon methinks.
Kind regards,
~angelbite~
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 10/1/2008 1:53:09 PM
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angelbite
Posts: 22
Joined: 10/1/2008
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
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It so lovely to be on a Christian forum, feel the love and debate ideas and concepts in a rational, logical manner! (NOTE THE SARCASM)
I suggest before you come at me with some dribble that is supposed to sound half way intelligent I am guessing that you take a look at the latest scientific research and findings on addiction.
Take a look at Stanton Peele's website, read the book Addiction is a choice by Jeffrey A Schaler. Men who have spent their whole lives researching addiction and who actually know what they are talking about.
So you go take your education as you call it and wallow in your ignorance some more.
Regards,
~angelbite~
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 10/1/2008 2:01:13 PM
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angelbite
Posts: 22
Joined: 10/1/2008
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
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I don't think that you are listening here. I am in essence saying exactly what you are.
Quitting any addiction is simple, you know what you do, you just don't pick up that next drink or drug and yes I agree staying abstinent is often really hard.
But the majority of all addicts give up treatment on their own without any help from AA or NA. If you include the spontaneous remission rate with alcoholics AA has a success rate of less than 0%.
I have been there and done that with regards to being addicted, to be being feeling absolutely enslaved body and soul from my addiction.
I am quite surprised that so many people here are very quick to hop on the bandwagon or their pedestal and judge. I am taking it that you have also experienced the ravages of addiction and as such I think at least we have a common bond there, why not build on that, debate ideas and different concepts freely and without prejudice. Why not give it a shot people.
Thanks
Regards,
~angelbite~
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