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[Poll]
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Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness?
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| disease |
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| addiction |
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| weakness |
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| all three |
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| none of the above |
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Total Votes : 59
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(last vote on : 10/6/2008 8:29:54 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/21/2008 9:17:22 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
And as sweet as that is, it doesn't address the spiritual condition. Surrender to a group or some fuzzy concept of a god isn't slavation. If I somehow managed to overcome every imperfection within me, without being born again, I would not inherit eternal life.
This isn't about salvation. You are mixing concepts here.
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"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/21/2008 9:20:08 AM
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deliveredarling
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Jimbo, your attempts at playing word games isn't going to work. I'm not playing.
If you truly have the desire to learn about this, I will answer your question or discuss thoughts and misconceptions, however, I'm not going to continue with this seemingly endless bater and twisting of ideas on your part.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/21/2008 9:25:02 AM
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JimboFletch
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Alcoholism is a condition, not a disease. A disease will not exclude anyone from heaven - like alcoholism does. A disease cannot be cured by simply stopping what caused caused it - that's circular logic.
Calling alcoholism is politically correct and came about to remove the stigma of a condition that a person causes by making a choice.
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/21/2008 9:31:30 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6628
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
If you truly have the desire to learn about this...
I'm 56 years old and have been a student of the Bible for over 41 years (when I was saved in 1967). I had an alcoholic grandfather, uncle, and a great-uncle. I even once had an alcoholic "pastor." I'm not talking theory or supposition.
You apparently are only here to teach Bible and political correctness and think you have no need to learn.
Fine. Your choice. Bye.
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/21/2008 9:41:40 AM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 7616
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From: NeverNeverLand
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
You mean, Bill W?
I never said that an alcoholic wouldn't need assistance, but until he chooses to stop, he won't. Period.
Everything in life is a choice. You can choose to be obese, or you can choose to be healthy. You can choose to accept Christ, or you don't. There is ALWAYS a choice. We sometimes just need assistance in making them. Sometimes we have to be forced. Either quit drinking or lose everything. It's still a choice.
You did right here:
quote:
Alcoholics CAN stop on their own. They can see they are addicted and make the CHOICE to do something.
people won't even try to quit unless they have identified that they have a problem. They have to realize this. people can tell them this all day long, but until they accept that fact, it is pointless. It's called denial.
The problem with saying that people can stop on their own, makes it sound like they have some kind of power. It denies that God is the solution, that people can fix themselves.
Why it's difficult to understand that addicts lose all power to choose I don't know.
I can tell you this, if some one has a drinking problem, but hasn't crossed the point of physical addiction, they still have the power to choose.
It's no longer the same ball park.
Now who's twisting words? 
Did you see the sentence after? They make the CHOICE to do something about it. Which means seeking assistance if it's needed.
It's not difficult to understand because I do. However, it still ends up being a matter of choice. This is where I say it's a weakness because some people really don't think they can survive without the alcohol. They don't feel like they can walk away from it, so they choose the alcohol instead of everything they hold dear to him. Even when one is at the bottom of the barrel and there is no hope to be seen there is stil a choice.
To quote a movie, someone could point a gun to my head and tell me he's going to end my life and I still have choices; I can choose to die with dignity or I can die screaming and crying like a school girl. There are ALWAYS choices.
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/21/2008 9:43:04 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1936
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quote:
I'm 56 years old and have been a student of the Bible for over 41 years (when I was saved in 1967). I had an alcoholic grandfather, uncle, and a great-uncle. I even once had an alcoholic "pastor." I'm not talking theory or supposition.
You apparently are only here to teach Bible and political correctness and think you have no need to learn.
Fine. Your choice. Bye.
Yep that's why I have thrown scripture after scripture at you, right?
I couldn't give a rat's behind about political correctness.
As for learning, at 56 you know it all, right.
So be it Jim, goodbye.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/21/2008 9:50:37 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1936
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quote:
if it's needed.
That's the point, it is needed.
You are saying , they do it on their own and that just is not true.
I know this for a fact. I decided many times, that I needed to quit, and couldn't on my own.
Again the only way that happens is if the person hasn't crossed the line into physical and psychological dependence.
quote:
This is where I say it's a weakness because some people really don't think they can survive without the alcohol.
They don't think, they know. Again , it's the compulsion.
This is not like an everyday choice of what to have for lunch. It's not a cavalier choice one makes. Alcoholics will pick up a drink not even realizing that they are doing it.
Your making an assumption that they have a clear head to make a solid decision. That is way far from the truth.
Believe me, many would rather die than get help.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/21/2008 9:59:18 AM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 7616
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From: NeverNeverLand
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I'm really not trying to turn this into a pesonal debate. What worked for you doesn't always work for others.
I've seen alocholics walk into rehab and say, "I want to quit. Help me."
I've seen alcoholics get carried away on stretchers to the hospital because they were too drunk to breathe.
I've seen alcoholics watch their families walk out while clutching bottles of burbon.
As nice as it sounds your 'one size fits all' theory doesn't work.
However, I still stand on the theory of choice. It can't be made for you. There has to come a time when you realise something is wrong AND choose to do something about it.
What is it they say? Acceptance is the beginning of recovery? You have to know there is something wrong in order to fix it. It's the fixing that is different for everyone.
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/21/2008 10:09:19 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1936
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quote:
As nice as it sounds your 'one size fits all' theory doesn't work
It does if they want to get sober and stay that way. Jesus fits any size. 
The most major piece to resolving any addiction is getting to the root. If the root is not exposed, it remains to continue the corruption.
It's the corruption that increase the compulsion. The pain, the torment the alcoholic faces. It's the reason for the drinking, it makes it go away. It brings about oblivion.
If the discussion helps someone reading, then I am all for it.
Many on here have family and friends who are addicted. They need to know there is a solution and help is available, that there is hope, no matter whether they describe it a s an addiction, disease, or weakness.
It's not a personal debate, but there are people reading this, who very well may be facing this. It's important that they have solid information.
It's also important to note that people who suffer from alcoholism are not kept from the kingdom as one poster suggests. It's also important to note that causing one to doubt there salvation is seriously shameful and a TOS.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/21/2008 10:30:52 AM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 7616
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
As nice as it sounds your 'one size fits all' theory doesn't work
It does if they want to get sober and stay that way. Jesus fits any size.
The most major piece to resolving any addiction is getting to the root. If the root is not exposed, it remains to continue the corruption.
It's the corruption that increase the compulsion. The pain, the torment the alcoholic faces. It's the reason for the drinking, it makes it go away. It brings about oblivion.
If the discussion helps someone reading, then I am all for it.
Many on here have family and friends who are addicted. They need to know there is a solution and help is available, that there is hope, no matter whether they describe it a s an addiction, disease, or weakness.
It's not a personal debate, but there are people reading this, who very well may be facing this. It's important that they have solid information.
It's also important to note that people who suffer from alcoholism are not kept from the kingdom as one poster suggests. It's also important to note that causing one to doubt there salvation is seriously shameful and a TOS.
Again...I feel you're twisting words but I grow weary of discussion. I don't think you will catch me saying that Jesus doesn't fit all, but that's not what I was referring to.
You said, and I quote: quote:
I know this for a fact. I decided many times, that I needed to quit, and couldn't on my own.
This is where I was referring to the one size fits all. Just because you had difficulty with something doesn't mean everyone is like you; hence my comment about keeping this from being personal. It also explains why I brought up the different scenarios of alocholics. It ultimately comes down to a choice. One CHOOSES to quit...now whether they go to rehab, or a 12 step program, or church is HOW they receive the assistance. But the choice has to be made first.
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/21/2008 10:42:41 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1936
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ok
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/21/2008 12:09:45 PM
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Ruthie
Posts: 72
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From: Center of the Universe, Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
Ten people given heroin or meth for ten days will be addicted. Not so with alcohol. So it seems to work differently than common addictions.
Is it a disease? Medically, it is considered so. You won't discover it if you never drink at all. Hmmm...
A weakness? Drunkards are weak people? Strong people never abuse it?
Please discuss.
This thread is NOT about whether or not alcohol is a sinful beverage.
I vote Willful Sin. Disease?! Oh come on. Cancer is a disease. Alcoholism is about being selfish.
I know that I should have compassion for alcoholics, I know I should care... But I don't.
I don't care what happens to them. I don't understand why people try and make excuses for them. I don't understand why family members let them stay instead of kicking them to the curb.
They wanted to ruin their own lives for the sake of a high, they didn't mind dragging spouse and children down with them.
I hate alcoholics.
Edited TOS 5
< Message edited by Kath -- 8/21/2008 8:16:45 PM >
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/21/2008 1:34:26 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 10086
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ruthie
quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
Ten people given heroin or meth for ten days will be addicted. Not so with alcohol. So it seems to work differently than common addictions.
Is it a disease? Medically, it is considered so. You won't discover it if you never drink at all. Hmmm...
A weakness? Drunkards are weak people? Strong people never abuse it?
Please discuss.
This thread is NOT about whether or not alcohol is a sinful beverage.
I vote Willful Sin. Disease?! Oh come on. Cancer is a disease. Alcoholism is about being selfish.
I know that I should have compassion for alcoholics, I know I should care... But I don't.
I don't care what happens to them. I don't understand why people try and make excuses for them. I don't understand why family members let them stay instead of kicking them to the curb.
They wanted to ruin their own lives for the sake of a high, they didn't mind dragging spouse and children down with them.
I hate alcoholics.
Edited TOS 5
Although you may have some valid points they became lost amid all the hate.
I don't think I would take it to the extremes you mentioned.
(edited only to change the quote)
< Message edited by Kath -- 8/21/2008 8:20:16 PM >
_____________________________
Remember: God loves you and I'm trying!
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/21/2008 2:38:50 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1936
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The thought occured to me that I may have construed my thoughts to be one of blame. Meaning that it sounded like alcoholism is to blame for a person's detriment. If it should have come across that way, let me clarify.
Alcoholism is not an excuse for bad behavior although it offers an explanation.
I am a major proponent of accountability and responsibility.
I don't take excuse lightly not do the hold much water with me.
I am very blunt and to the point and often don't curb my words to the point that I sometimes "bite".
If I came across that way in my explanations please let me know, and I will curb my bluntness.
Before an alcoholic begins healing, they have no sense of responsibility or accountability, they just don't. They are sick. They are warped. They can't find their head even if it is stuck straight up their kazoo.
When healing begins, it's then that they have the ability to acknowledge their responsibility and be held accountable for their actions.
It gets better with time, but we struggle with our thinking until the day we die.
We are definitely wired differently.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/21/2008 3:19:57 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1936
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quote:
What!? Oh my goodness...
Time for me to get my own reality check.
Your point for the sarcasm is what?
Unnecessary? Absolutely.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/21/2008 3:22:35 PM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 7616
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From: NeverNeverLand
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I was stunned into shock. I just couldn't believe the statement was even made. *sigh*
Oh well. To each their own. *shrug*
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/21/2008 3:30:22 PM
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Ruthie
Posts: 72
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Center of the Universe, Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
Although you may have some valid points they became lost amid all the hate.
I don't think I would take it to the extremes you mentioned.
Extremes? Well, I suppose so. I'm sick and tired of everyone saying "oh poor alcoholic. Don't worry, you've got a disease." Or "there, there, it'll be all better, you poor poor addict."
What about those of us that have to pick up the pieces of a life that the addict has utterly destroyed in the pursuit of his own needs? Why are we never more than an afterthought, an "oh, you must have been responsible some how, an enabler?" The addict wrecks havok and we get the blame. Nice.
Do you seriously think that addicts of any stripe actually think about how it affects others? Do you think they notice? Or care?
No. They don't. Oh, they may say that they care about their families but they don't. It is not in them to care about others. They don't even care about themselves.
If you love them, they will destroy you. Addicts are poison to the soul.
Look at mine. Filled with a lifetime of betrayal, fear, and pain. I hate and I distrust because that's how I managed to survive with my sanity intact. Such as it is...
So yes, I think kicking out an addict is necessary. You cut out cancer cells to save the body. This is no different.
This is the lesson I had to learn, again. I'm always having to learn this the hard way.
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/21/2008 3:34:12 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10529
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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I think my point in this whole thing is that one does not wake up one morning and "come down" with alcoholism. Something got them there and that something was sin.
And yes, alcoholism is a horrid thing and is usually a major battle to conquer. But, it still comes down to choice. An alcoholic must choose like anyone else to stop the sin. God isn't sitting up there waiting to snap His fingers and VIOLA! no more struggle! I'm not saying that choice is an easy one or a simple one. But that doesn't negate the fact that one makes choices that lead to alcoholism and one must make choices to get their head back on straight after the addiction takes hold.
As far as weakness:
weak·ness
–noun 1. the state or quality of being weak; lack of strength, firmness, vigor, or the like; feebleness.
2. an inadequate or defective quality, as in a person's character; slight fault or defect: to show great sympathy for human weaknesses.
Yes, alcoholism is a weakness.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/21/2008 3:34:17 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1936
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
I just couldn't believe the statement was even made.
My apologies, I didn't realize I was speaking to someone who knows alcoholism so intimately. Forgive me for assuming that all readers know this information. I was obviously mistaken that the thread was already answered and any discussion whether alcoholism is a disease, addiction, or weakness wasn't further warranted.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/21/2008 3:49:27 PM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 7616
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
I just couldn't believe the statement was even made.
My apologies, I didn't realize I was speaking to someone who knows alcoholism so intimately. Forgive me for assuming that all readers know this information. I was obviously mistaken that the thread was already answered and any discussion whether alcoholism is a disease, addiction, or weakness wasn't further warranted.
Apology accepted. 
Just for reference I was merely talking about the area I bolded.
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
I think my point in this whole thing is that one does not wake up one morning and "come down" with alcoholism. Something got them there and that something was sin.
And yes, alcoholism is a horrid thing and is usually a major battle to conquer. But, it still comes down to choice. An alcoholic must choose like anyone else to stop the sin. God isn't sitting up there waiting to snap His fingers and VIOLA! no more struggle! I'm not saying that choice is an easy one or a simple one. But that doesn't negate the fact that one makes choices that lead to alcoholism and one must make choices to get their head back on straight after the addiction takes hold.
As far as weakness:
weak·ness
–noun 1. the state or quality of being weak; lack of strength, firmness, vigor, or the like; feebleness.
2. an inadequate or defective quality, as in a person's character; slight fault or defect: to show great sympathy for human weaknesses.
Yes, alcoholism is a weakness.
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/21/2008 4:12:02 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1936
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
What about those of us that have to pick up the pieces of a life that the addict has utterly destroyed in the pursuit of his own needs? Why are we never more than an afterthought, an "oh, you must have been responsible some how, an enabler?" The addict wrecks havok and we get the blame. Nice.
It's a family disease and guess what, you are sick too. If you don't notice the hateful state your in, you're in denial.
You too can get help. It's called al-anon.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/21/2008 4:14:14 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1936
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
As far as weakness:
weak·ness
–noun 1. the state or quality of being weak; lack of strength, firmness, vigor, or the like; feebleness.
2. an inadequate or defective quality, as in a person's character; slight fault or defect: to show great sympathy for human weaknesses.
Yes, alcoholism is a weakness.
Sounds like the description of the majority of mankind to me.
Alcoholism may be viewed as a weakness, sobriety is however a strength
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Alcoholism: Disease, Addiction, or Weakness? - 8/21/2008 4:15:40 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6628
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Deliveredarling, I'm not posting to critique anything that's been said since my last post, I just have a sincere question:
How are you qualified to know so much about alcoholics and family members of alcoholics?
Thanks,
JF
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