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RE: Saddleback, McCain's deceptions and his infidelity - 8/21/2008 2:39:57 PM
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WesP
Posts: 2451
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From: Where God needs me to be
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
it is mendacious to state that the 'Obama/messiah' linkage initiated from anyone in the Obama campaign, when it was the McCAin campaign which first used the term and then started using it in their ads.
It really is uncool to call ones who argue against you liars without giving proof. Even with proof, do you think that is true? We all come to post lies? You yourself spoke of Oprah making statements a year ago.
I posted proof - did you not see it, or just chose to ignore it?
By the way, if you care to check my profile, I've only been a member here for about two weeks - which means that your 'year-ago' statement is either intentionally or unintentionally incorrect. Take your pick.
What proof? Supposition? The only thing you have offered since (or prior) to this statement is concerning Oprah. Also, read my sentence. Oprah making statements a year ago.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
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RE: Republicans and Abortion - 8/21/2008 2:40:51 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7833
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
The right wing in this country had the Congress for fourteen years and a Republican president for six of those, yet NEVER introduced any legilation to outlaw abortion to any degree. Not because they couldn't have gotten it passed - which means that they must NOT HAVE WANTED it to pass.
Well right off the top of my head I can think of one piece - the partial birth abortion bill.
quote:
WHY don't Republicans work at putting their votes where their campaign slogans are? Because they realize that it's the greatest tool they have to get re-elected, and outlawing abortion would lessen their chances - and the oh-so-clever Pro-Life voters in America keep choosing to be suckered by this shameless manipulation.
I do agree that pro-life people have gotten less than satisfactory results from many Republicans - but it's not as if Democrats give pro-lifers any alternatives.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Republicans and Abortion - 8/21/2008 2:41:03 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1033
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
Why are pro-lifers not going after the "murderers" themselves?!?
You kid yourself if you think the republican party is going to do ANYTHING to reverse Roe v. Wade.
Question and answer back-to-back! The left makes sure of it. We cannot go after the murderers because you do not allow it by your votes.
The right wing in this country had the Congress for fourteen years and a Republican president for six of those, yet NEVER introduced any legilation to outlaw abortion to any degree. Not because they couldn't have gotten it passed - which means that they must NOT HAVE WANTED it to pass.
How many times did President Clinton veto partial birth abortion ban acts?
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RE: Republicans and Abortion - 8/21/2008 2:50:02 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 1571
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From: The North Woods
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quote:
You kid yourself if you think the republican party is going to do ANYTHING to reverse Roe v. Wade. The only thing that will stop abortions is going to be putting girls and women in jail. Why are pro-lifers not supporting that and lobbying their congressmen to do that? We can build more jails.
Actually, the GOP has been quietly working to undo Roe for years via loading the courts with conservative judges, esp at the Supreme Court level.
The last thing Republicans want to do is enrage women voters by directly revoking their basic abortion rights.
However, they're more than happy to do it through the back door. Once Roe is upended, Democrats will be handed a galvanizing issue which women voters will flock to in droves, and Republicans will be forced to declare a side.
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Republicans and Abortion - 8/21/2008 2:55:59 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1033
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
You kid yourself if you think the republican party is going to do ANYTHING to reverse Roe v. Wade. The only thing that will stop abortions is going to be putting girls and women in jail. Why are pro-lifers not supporting that and lobbying their congressmen to do that? We can build more jails.
Actually, the GOP has been quietly working to undo Roe for years via loading the courts with conservative judges, esp at the Supreme Court level.
The last thing Republicans want to do is enrage women voters by directly revoking their basic abortion rights.
However, they're more than happy to do it through the back door. Once Roe is upended, Democrats will be handed a galvanizing issue which women voters will flock to in droves, and Republicans will be forced to declare a side.
Actually, there have been several state laws either limiting or restricting abortion - many of which have been overturned by the courts.
There have also been several state referrendums where the people actually voted to restrict or limit abortion.. but again have been overturned by the courts.
Has there ever been a referrendum or law passed by any legislatures or Congress which has actually allowed or expanded abortion rights? Seems like when the people are allowed to speak... they speak out against abortion.
The source of the problem was Roe v Wade and subsequent court decisions... not legislation nor democratic initiatives.
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RE: Republicans and Abortion - 8/21/2008 2:56:51 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7833
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
Actually, the GOP has been quietly working to undo Roe for years via loading the courts with conservative judges, esp at the Supreme Court level.
The last thing Republicans want to do is enrage women voters by directly revoking their basic abortion rights.
However, they're more than happy to do it through the back door. Once Roe is upended, Democrats will be handed a galvanizing issue which women voters will flock to in droves, and Republicans will be forced to declare a side.
Actually, it's hardly been 'back door' - I think everyone know the conservative justices have been, and always are, appointed by Republicans. And as no congress can actually ban abortion unless the court changes, this is a neccesary step.
And a number of conservative legislatures and governors (again, Republican) have strengthened laws against abortion - and that makes it's way up the courts as well.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Republicans and Abortion - 8/21/2008 2:57:30 PM
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WesP
Posts: 2451
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From: Where God needs me to be
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quote:
Once Roe is upended, Democrats will be handed a galvanizing issue which women voters will flock to in droves, and Republicans will be forced to declare a side.
First of all, I seriously doubt it will be overturned. Second of all, those appointments you speak of are listed in public domain. Many of them are mentioned in national news. So, where is the back door? The votes of Congress are public. What percentage of the Republican candidates vote against abortion? In your argument, very few, but that is not the truth. Some do, to be sure, but that is not the whole of the picture, is it?
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
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RE: Republicans and Abortion - 8/21/2008 2:58:07 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1033
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Actually, the GOP has been quietly working to undo Roe for years via loading the courts with conservative judges, esp at the Supreme Court level.
The last thing Republicans want to do is enrage women voters by directly revoking their basic abortion rights.
However, they're more than happy to do it through the back door. Once Roe is upended, Democrats will be handed a galvanizing issue which women voters will flock to in droves, and Republicans will be forced to declare a side.
Actually, it's hardly been 'back door' - I think everyone know the conservative justices have been, and always are, appointed by Republicans. And as no congress can actually ban abortion unless the court changes, this is a neccesary step.
And a number of conservative legislatures and governors (again, Republican) have strengthened laws against abortion - and that makes it's way up the courts as well.
That's the point I was trying to make. You said it much better though! Thanks.
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RE: Saddleback, McCain's deceptions and his infidelity - 8/21/2008 3:02:31 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
it is mendacious to state that the 'Obama/messiah' linkage initiated from anyone in the Obama campaign, when it was the McCAin campaign which first used the term and then started using it in their ads.
It really is uncool to call ones who argue against you liars without giving proof. Even with proof, do you think that is true? We all come to post lies? You yourself spoke of Oprah making statements a year ago.
I posted proof - did you not see it, or just chose to ignore it?
By the way, if you care to check my profile, I've only been a member here for about two weeks - which means that your 'year-ago' statement is either intentionally or unintentionally incorrect. Take your pick.
What proof? Supposition? The only thing you have offered since (or prior) to this statement is concerning Oprah. Also, read my sentence. Oprah making statements a year ago.
Since your sentence as constructed can be taken either way, and since Winfrey's statements of a year ago made no mention of Obama as 'messiah', I figured you had merely made a mistake of identity.
As to proof, here's the link.
http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN0143514520080801?feedType=RSS&feedName=politicsNews
Note the August 2008 date - and who first used the 'obama/messiah' lnkage.
Frankly, I'm rather surprised at the soi-disant Christians on here, letting McCain get off so easy with playing fast and loose with the term.
Must be becuase it is easier to blame the victim rather than the guy commiting the heresy.
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RE: Saddleback, McCain's deceptions and his infidelity - 8/21/2008 3:16:20 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1033
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
Since your sentence as constructed can be taken either way, and since Winfrey's statements of a year ago made no mention of Obama as 'messiah', I figured you had merely made a mistake of identity.
As to proof, here's the link.
http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN0143514520080801?feedType=RSS&feedName=politicsNews
Note the August 2008 date - and who first used the 'obama/messiah' lnkage.
Frankly, I'm rather surprised at the soi-disant Christians on here, letting McCain get off so easy with playing fast and loose with the term.
Must be becuase it is easier to blame the victim rather than the guy commiting the heresy.
Here is a LINK.
The Obama Messiah watch was begun on Slate.com January 29, 2007... more than 1 1/2 years ago... not by McCain or the McCain campaign.
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RE: Saddleback, McCain's deceptions and his infidelity - 8/21/2008 3:17:58 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
Since your sentence as constructed can be taken either way, and since Winfrey's statements of a year ago made no mention of Obama as 'messiah', I figured you had merely made a mistake of identity.
As to proof, here's the link.
http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN0143514520080801?feedType=RSS&feedName=politicsNews
Note the August 2008 date - and who first used the 'obama/messiah' lnkage.
Frankly, I'm rather surprised at the soi-disant Christians on here, letting McCain get off so easy with playing fast and loose with the term.
Must be becuase it is easier to blame the victim rather than the guy commiting the heresy.
Here is a LINK.
The Obama Messiah watch was begun on Slate.com January 29, 2007... more than 1 1/2 years ago... not by McCain or the McCain campaign.
I'm glad you agree that 'messiah' is a label that has been APPLIED TO Obama, not used by him or his campaign in reference to himself.
Issue closed.
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RE: Saddleback, McCain's deceptions and his infidelity - 8/21/2008 3:34:21 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7833
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
That's the point I was trying to make. You said it much better though! Thanks.
Actually, had I seen yours first I wouldn't have posted, it covered all the bases.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Saddleback, McCain's deceptions and his infidelity - 8/21/2008 3:41:31 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
But it does seem to be used by his adoring fans... (post #47).
Got it, your theory is that political commentators COMMENTING ON the usage of the term re Obama is the same thing as they themselves referring to Obama with that term.
i understand your position perfectly now. Thanks for clearing that up.
"I don't know why you are so offended by the term."
That much is obvious.
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RE: Saddleback, McCain's deceptions and his infidelity - 8/21/2008 3:52:57 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1033
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
But it does seem to be used by his adoring fans... (post #47).
Got it, your theory is that political commentators COMMENTING ON the usage of the term re Obama is the same thing as they themselves referring to Obama with that term.
i understand your position perfectly now. Thanks for clearing that up.
"I don't know why you are so offended by the term."
That much is obvious.
Nancy Pelosi is a "commentator?"
Chris Matthews might be a commentator now but was a big time democrat opertative before.
So, as I said, prominent Democrats appear to be acknowledging a certain "messiah-like" quality to your man. Don't put all the blame on McCain for making fun of that.
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RE: Saddleback, McCain's deceptions and his infidelity - 8/21/2008 4:48:01 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
it is mendacious to state that the 'Obama/messiah' linkage initiated from anyone in the Obama campaign, when it was the McCAin campaign which first used the term and then started using it in their ads.
It really is uncool to call ones who argue against you liars without giving proof. Even with proof, do you think that is true? We all come to post lies? You yourself spoke of Oprah making statements a year ago.
Even thought the proof was provided both prior to and subsequent to your post, I changed the wording of my OP. There is, after all, the possibility that he was incorrect on the matter because he didn't know any better.
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RE: Saddleback, McCain's deceptions and his infidelity - 8/21/2008 4:59:17 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
Another major difference is that no one on the right considers their candidate a messiah. 
it is mendacious to state that the 'Obama/messiah' linkage initiated from anyone in the Obama campaign, when it was the McCAin campaign which first used the term and then started using it in their ads.
"In 2007 the talk show queen Oprah Winfrey would allude to Miss Jane Pittman and hail Obama as ‘the one’, later prompting the Republican candidate John McCain’s campaign to accuse him of hubris and even mock him for having a messiah complex. A McCain internet ad this month intoned, ‘It shall be known that in 2008 the world will be blessed. They will call him “The One”.’ "
Just 2 days ago, Nancy Pelosi declared Obama to be God's gift to America.
Last I heard, Nancy is a Democrat.
It is also irrelevant to state who started the 'Obama/messiah' linkage. I never made that assertion. The fact is that his followers seem to be believing it.
Congratulations, first you managed to misquote Pelosi (what she actually said was ""a leader that God has blessed us with at this time." - I think we would ALL like it if the next President were a God-granted blessing...wouldn't you?). I don't see anything iun there about a 'messiah'...do you?
...threw in an irrelevancy, given the inaccuracy of the primary contention
...dismissed the relevance of the obama/messiah linkage, now that it has been pretty thoroughly demonstrated to be a McCain campaign rant and thus an embarrassement to the guy who actually said it
...and end up with a competely unsupported NEW assertion, for which NO PROOF WHATSOEVER has been offered (and which, in fact, has been refuted throughout this thread by actual quotes.)
it is nice to see a poster who can be so consistent.
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RE: Saddleback, McCain's deceptions and his infidelity - 8/21/2008 5:00:34 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
But it does seem to be used by his adoring fans... (post #47).
Got it, your theory is that political commentators COMMENTING ON the usage of the term re Obama is the same thing as they themselves referring to Obama with that term.
i understand your position perfectly now. Thanks for clearing that up.
"I don't know why you are so offended by the term."
That much is obvious.
Nancy Pelosi is a "commentator?"
Chris Matthews might be a commentator now but was a big time democrat opertative before.
So, as I said, prominent Democrats appear to be acknowledging a certain "messiah-like" quality to your man. Don't put all the blame on McCain for making fun of that.
You're really into this 'subverted support' argument, are you not?
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RE: Republicans and Abortion - 8/21/2008 5:27:27 PM
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Evangel70
Posts: 554
Joined: 10/28/2006
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quote:
The source of the problem was Roe v Wade and subsequent court decisions... not legislation nor democratic initiatives.
I would go a step further. The source of the problem is parents not teaching their children the dangers of sexual immorality and the government or some other surrogate to pick up the pieces. Roe v Wade didn't get anybody pregnant.
_____________________________
May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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RE: Republicans and Abortion - 8/21/2008 5:31:25 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 2143
Joined: 9/23/2005
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quote:
Roe v Wade didn't get anybody pregnant.
But it does make absolutely sure that the products of those sexual relations will never see the light of day....
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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Mocking the Messiah - 8/21/2008 5:41:37 PM
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Evangel70
Posts: 554
Joined: 10/28/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
Frankly, I'm rather surprised at the soi-disant Christians on here, letting McCain get off so easy with playing fast and loose with the term.
Must be becuase it is easier to blame the victim rather than the guy commiting the heresy.
quote:
I'm glad you agree that 'messiah' is a label that has been APPLIED TO Obama, not used by him or his campaign in reference to himself.
quote:
I don't know why you are so offended by the term.
I can only speak for myself, but I for one am offended that McCain would think so little of the term Messiah which was applied to God's son who died on the cross to save McCain from his sins that he would use the term so flippantly for political gain. It surprises me that those who profess to be Christians here can so quickly dismiss it a a joke.
If it had been made by Hannity or O'Reilly or Rush, one can dismiss it as another negative swipe by a right-wing wind-bag, just as one can dismiss comments by Oprah or Pelosi, because they don't speak for the Obama campaign. Howver, the referral of Obama as a messiah came from the McCain campaign not some Obama supporter.
_____________________________
May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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RE: Mocking the Messiah - 8/21/2008 6:00:09 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1419
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"We are the ones we've been waiting for." - Messiah Obama
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RE: Mocking the Messiah - 8/21/2008 6:05:45 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1033
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
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"... a light will shine through that window, a beam of light will come down upon you, you will experience an epiphany ... and you will suddenly realize that you must go to the polls and vote for Obama" - Barack Obama Lebanon, New Hampshire.
January 7, 2008.
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