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ORIGINAL: ManimalX

Large amounts of government control over the populace, manifesting itself in ways such as the redistribution of wealth from those who rightfully earned it to those who didn't, a la Obama's desire to force oil companies into giving some of their earnings to individuals.

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ORIGINAL: Lizahana


What shocking is the whole smear campaign on Obama. People post from blog emails about things outside the realm of politics.

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And the number of these rdiculous posts on Obama far, far outnumber those on McCain. I generally do not comment on either of them. The only one I commented on about McCain was the ridiculous thread about McCain and his former wife - and I voiced the same opinion there - who cares? Let's get real and talk about their stances.

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I think it's silly to talk about the candidates outside their politics - ie, I am a serious voter - not one that reads about about how Obama is allegedly part of a cult...that 'he's wicked,' I read about political stances, not gossip and heresay.

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If you're the type that goes and reads about alien babies in the National Enquirer - so be it.

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But I'm not. Congressional Quarterly is 10 time more interesting than the likes of this.

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BTW, no one is qualified to say so and so is wicked, that they are not Christian unless they are a perfect Christian themselves.

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And go ahead and get the stones out...

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ORIGINAL: Lizahana

I know that quite a few on these forums believe they are the ultimate judgement on who is and is not a Christian, but I, and many others, were taught that this is not right. That only God has this ultimate power. I am not going to argue this with you. We disagree on this, so let's agree to disagree.

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ORIGINAL: ManimalX

Lizhana: First, I want to let you know that I like the way you reply succinctly issue by issue instead of rambling off on tangents willy-nilly like some tend to do around here. It makes having lively discussion with you much easier and more enjoyable.

So, niceties aside... :)

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ORIGINAL: Lizahana


1. I'm just saying that I take a good hard look at any candidate in contention, rather than following one simply because of the label, in your case, Repbulican. If you want to read something into that, go right ahead - that's your problem, not mine. And by being an independent, I can see flaws on both sides - apparently you see flaws only with the Democrats - again, transparency and lacking in crediblility since it's blantantly obvious that they both have flaws.

If my original response to your claim of being an Independent was a bit hostile, I apologize. It seemed like you were just trying to "one-up" everyone who isn't an Independent. My experience with other Independents has always been that they have an air of superiority. If this isn't what you meant, again, I apologize.

That being said, I would appreciate if you would extend me a similar courtesy. I would appreciate it if you would stop making the accusation that I am party-blind. I have tried to explain many times that I suport the Republican party because it is the party that will defeat the Democrats, not because I am in love with elephants or everything they do. The Democratic party is simply not a godly party, period. All you have to do is read the party platform and you will find overt endorsement of abortion and the homosexual agenda. Dig deeper and you will find distinct socialism, something else I disagree with. Fighting such a party is my motivator. Again, the Republican party is the only party that currently has a chance of doing this. I like other parties much more, but supporting them with my vote will only get a Democrat elected.

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2. I see, excuses, as usual - nothing new here, ManimalX. All I can say is YAWN. Surely if it was Obama, it would be different.

So a happy 28 year faithful marriage resulting in many happy children gets a yawn from you and dismissed as an "excuse". You would rather hold a grudge against someone for something they did almost 30 years ago, something they have apologized and repented of and have obviously moved beyond? Would you care to explain how you justify that?

If this had been Obama, it wouldn't warrant any different response. I measure him with the same standard I measure everyone else including myself.

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3. Of course! More excuses! Wow! You must work for McCain! And how about the Republicans that DID NOT vote in approval for Souter, Breyer, Ginsburg, when McCain DID approve of .Souter, Breyer and Ginsburg...hmmmm...kind of hard now, isn't it?! But, no worries, you'll try and dance around this as well....

My answers are about as far from "dancing" as you will ever find. I gave you the best explanation of McCain's SCOTUS votes as I could based upon what he has said. I wasn't there and I can't read his mind, so I will never really know for sure, but I don't see why it is such a hard thing to accept that someone voted one way and regretted it later. A lot of Democrats voted for the war and later regretted it. I don't hold that against them, though I know a lot of non-Democrats do. McCain regrets his SCOTUS votes. Is it only for political expedience? I don't doubt that has something to do with it, but he has specifically promised to appoint strict constructionists to the bench if he is President, and his party will hold him to that promise because if he goes against it, they will suffer in the next election. Bottom line, we have a much better chance of getting good Justices appointed with McCain than Obama, regardless of past votes.

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4. I see, it's all relative, right?! It's easy on that issue with Republicans. People assume that if you're a Republican, you are by default pro-life, which we all know is false, but we don't talk about THAT on this forum. There are pro-choice Republicans...but...shhhhhh, don't talk about that. Even at this, you can be a hair short of their platform and say that you agree with abortion ONLY in cases of rape, incest, mother's life endangered - but, by virtue of belonging to 'the club', you are exempt from any questioning on this stance. What bliss.

I honestly don't understand your argument here. I am not being sarcastic, I just simply don't understand what you typed. What exactly is "all relative", and what does people assuming Republicans are pro-life have to do with anything I wrote? How am I exempt from being questioned about my stance on abortion? Again, I am asking sincerely and with no malice for you to re-word this because I am not tracking.

All I was trying to convey in my original few lines is that Obama is for abortion on-demand and unrestricted, while McCain has a pretty solid anti-abortion record. If having McCain in the Whitehouse means good anti-abortion judges will be appointed and any new pro-abortion legislation gets vetoed, I am happy. And if it means that we can move closer to an abortion ban, even one with rape and incest exclusions, the praise the Lord! I am happy with every little step closer to a complete ban.

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5. Well, ManimalX, you could vote for others out there, if abortion is the only issue for you. Bob Barr is 100% pro-life as is Ron Paul. Why not wave that flag for them, if this is your cause?

Abortion is my #1 issue. But I am aware of all of the other issues as well. Did you bother to read ANYTHING I have written in all of my threads and posts here? It appears you haven't because otherwise you wouldn't have typed your #5 issue. I will restate what I already wrote: I support defeating the greater evil. The Republican party is the party that will accomplish that. John McCain is the Republican nominee. If I thought Alan Keyes or Bob Barr or Ron Paul had an ice cube's chance in hades of winning, I would happily support him instead. I would LOVE to support these guys, but to do so would put a Democrat in the Whitehouse. As I have ALSO already said, if I knew there would be no SCOTUS vacancies in the next President's term, I would happily throw my vote away on one of these good men to make a point. However, there WILL be SCOTUS vacancies, and we absolutely cannot have a Democrat in office when those appointments open up.

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6. Please - you have come inches short of calling Obama a communist. I point out that his healthcare plan is NOT that of a communist, and this is all you can say?! Why the whole title of your thread then?! Why make these claims when you admittedly do not know the issues yourself. Please! Back it up, ManimalX, with FACTS, not gossip.

Obama is a socialist. That is very easy to see. I have pointed out many times that his ECONOMIC policies reflect this. I have never written ONE WORD about health care and Obama in these forums because I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT HIS HEALTH CARE PROPOSALS! How can I back up an argument that I never made with knowledge that I don't possess?!? You don't want me to "gossip", but you want me to make stuff up about a subject I don't know about... how does that work? That line of reasoning goes into SwedishCovenant's territory, with his, "you are lying but you are not a liar" argument.

Obama has been influenced by socialist acquaintances and has a socialist philosophy. His economic policies reflect that. When I dig into his health care proposals, I will not be surprised if I find the same socialism, but I haven't done so yet, so I DON'T KNOW.

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7. I think I've more than proven my case, ManimalX. I don't know where you get off trying to tie Obama with communism - you rely on gossip, and not facts. And, if being anti-abortion was truly your cause, you wouldn't be supporting McCain - you could pick someone with less of a sketchy past like Barr or Paul and you know it.

All you have proven is that you either don't completely read or don't pause to reflect on anything that ManimalX writes before you respond to him. I will repeat again: Banning abortion is a huge motivation for me. McCain has the best chance to defeat the Donkeys, and therefore McCain is the best option to furthering my anti-abortion agenda. If Barr or Paul stood a chance and voting for them didn't mean putting a Donkey in office, I would do it in a heartbeat.

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8. I know that quite a few on these forums believe they are the ultimate judgement on who is and is not a Christian, but I, and many others, were taught that this is not right. That only God has this ultimate power. I am not going to argue this with you. We disagree on this, so let's agree to disagree.

How about if instead I say that Obama acts in an un-Christian manner; that his fruit is not good fruit. If you would rather keep it to yourself and will not call evil "evil" when you see it, that is fine. But don't get mad at those of us who are courageous enough to call good "good" and evil "evil".

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Peace and God bless,

Ditto.

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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

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ORIGINAL: Lizahana


What shocking is the whole smear campaign on Obama. People post from blog emails about things outside the realm of politics.

What is outside the realm of politics?

Actually I should ask what is outside the realm of what is right in the sight of God... Because there seems to be some who believe somethings are outside of God's jurisdiction...

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And the number of these rdiculous posts on Obama far, far outnumber those on McCain. I generally do not comment on either of them. The only one I commented on about McCain was the ridiculous thread about McCain and his former wife - and I voiced the same opinion there - who cares? Let's get real and talk about their stances.

Sure... Let's talk about there stances on abortion and homosexuality... Do you believe homosexuality isn't a sin and that it's simply a choice like a Mr Obama does? And yes, that is his stated belief and it's posted on a political site.

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I think it's silly to talk about the candidates outside their politics - ie, I am a serious voter - not one that reads about about how Obama is allegedly part of a cult...that 'he's wicked,' I read about political stances, not gossip and heresay.

Really... So... What is Mr Obama's stance on abortion... Oh and homosexuality...

And a follow up question... What is God's stance on the above? I seem to recall you are against it cept for some exceptions... And I believe you said Mr Obama is for abortion no matter what... I would gather there is some reason other than politics that you seem to differ with Mr. Obama regarding abortion... Or is his stance just as valid and just in the eyes of God as your own?

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If you're the type that goes and reads about alien babies in the National Enquirer - so be it.

One only has to gather quotes and votes of Mr Obama to have a clear record of his stance regarding abortion and homosexuality...

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But I'm not. Congressional Quarterly is 10 time more interesting than the likes of this.

What does Congressional Quarterly say about that Mr. Obama stance on abortion and homosexuality?

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BTW, no one is qualified to say so and so is wicked, that they are not Christian unless they are a perfect Christian themselves.

That must really stink for those who fall under a false teacher and must remain there because one cannot judge them to be a false teacher... And what of 1 Corinthians 5 and removing a "brother" who will not repent... I guess churches cannot remove the brother that will not repent since no one is perfect... Let's get real and talk...

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And go ahead and get the stones out...

That is for the proper authority...

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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

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ORIGINAL: Lizahana

I know that quite a few on these forums believe they are the ultimate judgement on who is and is not a Christian, but I, and many others, were taught that this is not right. That only God has this ultimate power. I am not going to argue this with you. We disagree on this, so let's agree to disagree.

You can't argue it... You have only stated it was what you were taught and you run from there...

The following refutes your claim...Facts...

1 Corinthians 5

1. It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4. In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5. To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6. Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7. Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9. I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10. Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13. But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

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iluvatar I don't see what difference it makes whether or not the money has been taxed already. Virtually any transfer of money from one party to another is done with after-tax dollars, yet is still taxed. If I write you a check for $1M, you'll have to pay income tax on that, despite my already having paid taxes on it. If I buy a car, the car dealership will have to pay corporate income tax on any profit, despite my having already paid taxes on the whole amount in the first place.

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ManimalX You should learn not to take things the left say at face value :)

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The money you make as wages/salary is paid to you out of corporate coffers - money on which the corporation has already paid taxes.

You spend it on food, gasoline, clothes, whatever - money YOU have already been taxed on. Why should the retailer to whom you pay it, have to pay taxes on that already-taxed money?

The supplier buys from his wholesaler with money HE has already been taxed on - why should the WHOLESALER have to pay taxes on money on which the RETAILER has already paid taxes?

The wholesaler buys from a corporation (for this example, the one you work for) with money on which the wholesaler has already been taxed - why should the corporation have to pay taxes on the already-taxed money?

repeat the loop, ad infinitum.

What Republicans want to do is to exempt corporations for no better reason than that their income has 'already been taxed' - as if everyone else's incomes somehow WEREN'T already taxed by that same definition.

Why exempt corporations? Because exempting their incomes from taxation boosts their net incomes, which in turn flows to their stockholders either as increased stock value or as dividends, making the stock owners wealthier (and, on capital gains, taxed at lower rates than honest wages), for which enrichment the wealthy (80% of the commonstock of American corporations is owned by less than two percent of the population) are willing to contribute to Republicans to rig the laws to ensure.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud
What is wrong with making stockholders wealthier? I would think that should be an important goal of any administration.