|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Rob Bell - 8/20/2008 12:44:34 AM
|
|
|
crankius
Posts: 4467
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
My comments:
Some bricks are necessary and essential to be a true follower of Christ (such as, believing Jesus is who He said He is).
We are not simply looking for the "best possible way to live". Many religions and philosophies have this as their chief end. We are seeking to know and be in fellowship with the one and only true God (as He has defined Himself in Scripture), and therefore right Scriptural doctrine really does matter.
While yes, some bricks are issues of liberty or are non-salvific, other bricks are absolutely core to the faith and are clearly stated in Scripture, and yes, a person will not be a true follower of Christ if they reject certain core "bricks".
It is poor theology to emphasize the "best possible way to live" above correct Scriptural doctrine.
"Movement two" in Velvet Elvis reveals yet a deeper disregard for the authority of Scripture. I'll post on that tomorrow, as I am turning in for the night.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 8/20/2008 1:38:16 AM
|
|
|
mushhead
Posts: 515
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
Status: offline
|
Crankius,
Now that you are reading, let me warn about the section on "binding and loosing," so that you won't have a fatal coronary. It's quite disturbing.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 8/20/2008 8:04:26 AM
|
|
|
jazzact13
Posts: 485
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
In regards to Bell's comments about the virgin birth...
He claims that if someone were to ever find evidence that Jesus' father was really a human man, then that wouldn't change his faith. But what does that say about his faith?
For example, if Jesus had only a human father, then what about Jesus being the Son of God? Would the human father put the kabosh on that doctrine?
Or if not, what does that mean? Was Jesus then some kind of 'ascended master', who somehow reached godhood in this life?
I think it was Driscoll who made a remark in regards to this idea of Bell's, that "If we lose the virgin birth, we lose Jesus". The virgin birth is not a periphal matter, but a central one. There may be room for disagreement on some things, but on other there can be no such room.
So, for example, when a Marcus Borg says "If I had to bet a dollar or my life, I would say the tomb was not empty, or there was no tomb", then I can say, based on what Paul writes about the importance of the resurrection, that Borg is not a Christian but heretical.
Is the virgin birth of equal importance? I think so, yes. Without it, we have only another man whose life has been mythologized.
Such is the result of Bell's trampoline theology.
_____________________________
there is no justice in the rhetoric of class hatred
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 8/20/2008 8:07:18 AM
|
|
|
Fritzpw_Admin
Posts: 7679
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: New Jersey
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Fritz-
Are we answering the question you're asking, or are we on a bunny trail?
Y'all seem to be on track to me.
Thanks
_____________________________
Fritz
Senior Manager of Social Media
fritz@salemwebnetwork.com
Want to see my latest online project? Check out http://budurl.com/CWonFacebook
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 8/20/2008 9:00:01 AM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Crankius,
Now that you are reading, let me warn about the section on "binding and loosing," so that you won't have a fatal coronary. It's quite disturbing.
YES YES YES that is the passage from scripture that he completely rips apart in the VE. Thanks for posting that. It was driving me nuts yesterday trying to remember the passage that he used inorder to tell us that we can pretty much add to scripture whatever we feel like. It was the "sincher" for me when I read it. All traces of doubts were gone.
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/20/2008 9:06:35 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 8/20/2008 9:28:33 AM
|
|
|
GroupW
Posts: 2913
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
The good news - I can count on you for some great ideas & commentary.
I've read through the end of the "second movement". I think you are going to have to count on me for a critical take on his writings.
I'm expecting a fair amount that could be criticized. No worries.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 8/20/2008 9:31:54 AM
|
|
|
GroupW
Posts: 2913
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
It is poor theology to emphasize the "best possible way to live" above correct Scriptural doctrine.
I think the point made elsewhere is that it's poor doctrine if it doesn't steer you toward the best possible way to live. The question is how do you meld orthodoxy and orthopraxy as mushhead noted.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 8/20/2008 9:49:07 AM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3143
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
I think the point made elsewhere is that it's poor doctrine if it doesn't steer you toward the best possible way to live. The question is how do you meld orthodoxy and orthopraxy as mushhead noted. Just a generic comment here as I have little time and less interest in reading potential fluff. The best possible way to live is Christlike. Doctrine does not steer us that way - it is only a saving and sanctifying relationship with the living Triune God that can make us like Christ. There's no need to "meld" orthodoxy and orthopraxy. Correct doctrine must result in righteous living or it is not orthodoxy!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 8/20/2008 9:50:09 AM
|
|
|
GroupW
Posts: 2913
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
My comments:
Some bricks are necessary and essential to be a true follower of Christ (such as, believing Jesus is who He said He is).
OK, comments on your comments-
Like most emergents, I think his language and metaphor prove more alarming than the underlying thought. At least, this is how I read it. I think really alarming language is part of the idea - to try to shock folks into seeing a different point of view. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. This one, for me at least, doesn't work quite as well as others..
I get his fundamental idea, which is not altogether bad. The "all-or-none" thinking described in this section exists in fundy-world, and it nearly killed me as a Christian. This is important. If the bible (as interpreted by this particular fundamentalist church), or their view of it, was wrong in the teensiest aspect, then it's all 100% wrong. This is the idea in the passage where he's writing that if you remove one brick in a wall constructed thusly, then the whole wall falls down. Most importantly, the "wrong part" that I perceive doesn't even need to be factually wrong for it to be problematic. It's enough if I see it that way.
This is exactly what happened to me. I completely rejected my faith in my 20's and was only reintroduced to it through the work of a couple of extremely good friends.
I think he picked the wrong brick here to play around with removing. Still, yeah, if Christ's father turned out to be a guy named Larry, I would remain convinced that there is something within the bible that is extremely holy. I'd be shake to the core, but I wouldn't fall. But that's not really the point he's making here either. His point is that there are a lot of "bricks" the church asks us to hold. Not all of them are cornerstones. Some are, some aren't. My theory and I think his - if you just worry about loving God, the important bricks become clear.
My faith has been fundamentally altered since my fundamentalist days. I hold to many bricks that I think can't be moved, but there are a number of bricks that I formerly thought were cornerstones that in the end proved to be merely decoration and not really necessary.
I think his point is good, but his manner of proving it there needs some work.
< Message edited by GroupW -- 8/20/2008 10:04:09 AM >
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 8/20/2008 9:54:38 AM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
I think he picked the wrong brick here to play around with removing. Still, yeah, if Christ's father turned out to be a guy named Larry, I would remain convinced that there is something within the bible that is extremely holy. I'd be shake to the core, but I wouldn't fall.
The diety of Christ is not something a Christian would "play around with" in a book published for the masses.
Do you realize that for many of his readers the brick of the diety of Christ, his Lordship and ultimate authority has now been taken away.
Don't confuse "non-essential" doctrines and essential ones. He is playing with the essential doctrines and giving his readers permission to crush them.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 8/20/2008 9:54:52 AM
|
|
|
GroupW
Posts: 2913
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
There's no need to "meld" orthodoxy and orthopraxy. Correct doctrine must result in righteous living or it is not orthodoxy!
Exactly. Correct doctrine must result in right living or it's not correct doctrine. That IS the melding of orthodoxy and orthopraxy. In truth, you really can't separate the two. That's the idea.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 8/20/2008 9:57:36 AM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
Then Marcus Borg - one of his mentors - has correct doctrine?
He and McLaren advocate correct living brings you to correct doctrine.
quote:
Correct doctrine must result in right living or it's not correct doctrine
I believe it does. Bell does not. He believes if we get people to do certain things, act in certain ways then their beliefs will be correct.
When it comes to Scripture this is Borg's view of it. Because Bell tells his readers much the same thing I cannot help but think his view of scripture is highly influenced by Borg.
I let go of the notion that the Bible is a divine product. I learned that it is a human cultural product, the product of two ancient communities, biblical Israel and early Christianity. As such, it contained their understandings and affirmations, not statements coming directly or somewhat directly from God.... I realized that whatever "divine revelation" and the "inspiration of the Bible" meant (if they meant anything), they did not mean that the Bible was a divine product with divine authority.
From "The God We Never Knew"
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/20/2008 10:06:24 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 8/20/2008 10:06:49 AM
|
|
|
GroupW
Posts: 2913
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
I think he picked the wrong brick here to play around with removing. Still, yeah, if Christ's father turned out to be a guy named Larry, I would remain convinced that there is something within the bible that is extremely holy. I'd be shake to the core, but I wouldn't fall.
The diety of Christ is not something a Christian would "play around with" in a book published for the masses.
Do you realize that for many of his readers the brick of the diety of Christ, his Lordship and ultimate authority has now been taken away.
Don't confuse "non-essential" doctrines and essential ones. He is playing with the essential doctrines and giving his readers permission to crush them.
I agree that he probably picked the wrong brick to use for his example. I think it's fine to take him to task on that. It's not fine if we focus on taking him to task on that and completely disregard the fact that he does have a point. Yeah, I think he makes a blunder there. He still has a good point.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 8/20/2008 10:11:11 AM
|
|
|
GroupW
Posts: 2913
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Then Marcus Borg - one of his mentors - has correct doctrine?
He and McLaren advocate correct living brings you to correct doctrine.
quote:
Correct doctrine must result in right living or it's not correct doctrine
I believe it does. Bell does not. He believes if we get people to do certain things, act in certain ways then their beliefs will be correct.
I think that's taking his beliefs a bit too far. I think it's more fair to say that he thinks it's difficult to separate the two. They are two faces of one coin. If they don't line up, then it's not the right coin. His perception and McLaren's I think rightly points out that modern evangelicals, of which I am one, have emphasized right-thinking over right-doing. That's been a huge a mistake of ours. I think he's trying to bring us back toward a better balance.
I don't see him arguing on behalf of a works-based salvation. Quite the opposite.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 8/20/2008 10:31:49 AM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
evangelicals, of which I am one, have emphasized right-thinking over right-doing.
But right doctrine leads to true salvation. True salvation leads to sanctification. Sanctification is a work of the Holy Spirit that we can cooperate with or not. Without the Holy Spirit doing the good works it's dead and not even of God.
McLaren and Bell don't really give a hoot about people being saved. They are out to get rich and make a name for themselves.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 8/20/2008 10:46:38 AM
|
|
|
mcleod
Posts: 1076
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
Crankius,
Now that you are reading, let me warn about the section on "binding and loosing," so that you won't have a fatal coronary. It's quite disturbing.
YES YES YES that is the passage from scripture that he completely rips apart in the VE. Thanks for posting that. It was driving me nuts yesterday trying to remember the passage that he used inorder to tell us that we can pretty much add to scripture whatever we feel like. It was the "sincher" for me when I read it. All traces of doubts were gone.
You better get the book and reread that part. This is what Jesus allowed the apostles to do. In Acts 15,you see that they were on a hunt to have gentile men who converted over to Christianity. To have their skin removed from their body. Which would probably cause all kinds of pain on the man. They changed their mind after Paul argued in reseasonable convincing lanquage that wasn't a requirement to have fellowship with God the Father and Lord Jesus Christ.
Bell doen't say that go ahead and make up things that don't go with scriptures. Like I have written before. If someone in their own mind believes that there was no virgin birth. Doesn't stop me from believing that was. Faith is in believing that what God say is the truth and I could care the least if Joe -blow comes up stupid. As you guys and say that Bell is stupid then you need to look and see if you have it alright. Remember in the history of the church man has thought he had the answers right. Yet someone else came along with another idea to it and possible could have it right. Their are some in these threads who post that they believe in speaking in tongues. I don't agree with their interputation of the scriptures. Just because I don't agree with them doesn't mean I have all the answer. And they are the fools on the hill.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 8/20/2008 10:47:51 AM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3143
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
But right doctrine leads to true salvation. True salvation leads to sanctification. Sanctification is a work of the Holy Spirit that we can cooperate with or not. Without the Holy Spirit doing the good works it's dead and not even of God. Actually, God's grace leads to true salvation, but we must appropriate that grace through correct doctrinal understanding of what we believe by faith. And if Jesus is not the Son of God, then He was a lunatic, liar, or both! In which case, we all fall, GroupW.
quote:
McLaren and Bell don't really give a hoot about people being saved. They are out to get rich and make a name for themselves. That's a bit harsh, P31W. I'm pretty sure they prefer getting rich and being famous while taking people to Heaven with them. 
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 8/20/2008 10:49:42 AM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
As you guys and say that Bell is stupid then you need to look and see if you have it alright.
Bell tells me that the Bible is a human product. Of course the bible itself tells me otherwise. Who shall I believe? Rob Bell the booksalesman or God the Creator of the World?
quote:
Their are some in these threads who post that they believe in speaking in tongues. I don't agree with their interputation of the scriptures. Just because I don't agree with them doesn't mean I have all the answer. And they are the fools on the hill
Don't confuse essential doctrines and non essential. In these debates concerning these guys they are going after the essentials. They are outside the Christian faith.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 8/20/2008 10:51:10 AM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
That's a bit harsh, P31W. I'm pretty sure they prefer getting rich and being famous while taking people to Heaven with them.
I believe it's in AGO that McLaren discusses allowing people to be a follower of Jesus while leaving them in their own religion. I am sure someone has the direct quote.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 8/20/2008 10:59:01 AM
|
|
|
doinkdom
Posts: 4279
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
I'm listening to Rob Bell defend himself against charges of heresy at the moment. If all of what he says is true, I actually respect him less than I did before, because it means he is being intentionally obtuse when it comes to other preaching, writing, interviewing, etc. I've actually read and heard a lot of what he has to say over the past year and based on all that I would say he is left of center biblically.
And he basically just said if anyone was talking against his church it's equal to blasphemy.
Listened to the same thing and completely agree.
I do love the Nooma videos (with the exception of the last one) and we will probably continue to use a few of them as visual aids for our group.
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Depends where he takes it. There's some limited room to maneuver within that topic (feminine imagery of God within the bible) that is still fairly straightforward biblical work. Let me know what you think if/when you see it.
Limited indeed. Yeh, this video encourages everyone to nurture their feminine side. IMO, if my husband starts nurturing his feminine side...I'll find a way to kill it.   I didn't marry a woman, I married a "dude."
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Edit to add: I wouldn't let poor treatment of this one subject turn you off. There's a lot of bad treatment of this particular issue - both conservative AND liberal. Not sure why Bell would be that much different than the normal unfortunate state of affairs.
Bell is different IMO, because I think he uses his position of popularity to influence his audience toward his own agenda.
Anyways....AGAIN, we will continue to use the other videos (there's like 20).
We also just watched the Gods Aren't Angry video and it was great - all about legalism in Christians. Very good.
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 8/20/2008 11:02:09 AM
|
|
|
mcleod
Posts: 1076
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
But right doctrine leads to true salvation. True salvation leads to sanctification. Sanctification is a work of the Holy Spirit that we can cooperate with or not. Without the Holy Spirit doing the good works it's dead and not even of God.
McLaren and Bell don't really give a hoot about people being saved. They are out to get rich and make a name for themselves.
You don't know what you are talking about on your last statement. Bell lives in area that I would say that you would not live in. Called the slums. Where crime and drugs deals go down everyday.
On your first writing. Give the scripture or scriptures that have that in them.
One more thing for some odd reason I keep getting a bug from this website. Which has my computer stopping for ten seconds and starting up all the time for ten seconds.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 8/20/2008 11:28:06 AM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
On your first writing. Give the scripture or scriptures that have that in them.
No I am not going to turn this into a debate over what the actual sound doctrine is. Most of us already know what it is. The question is does Bell teach it. The anwer is no he does not.
quote:
Bell lives in area that I would say that you would not live in. Called the slums. Where crime and drugs deals go down everyday.
I also live in a poor area. It does not mean that I am poor. Two rapes on my road in the last two weeks. I would venture to guess that most of the homes on my road have illegal drugs in them right now. One guy is a murdered on my road and another neighbor is a child molester. That's just what I can remember.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 8/20/2008 11:29:08 AM
|
|
|
GroupW
Posts: 2913
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
evangelicals, of which I am one, have emphasized right-thinking over right-doing.
But right doctrine leads to true salvation. True salvation leads to sanctification. Sanctification is a work of the Holy Spirit that we can cooperate with or not. Without the Holy Spirit doing the good works it's dead and not even of God.
McLaren and Bell don't really give a hoot about people being saved. They are out to get rich and make a name for themselves.
Again, I think that's a serious mistatement of both salvation and their ideas. Faith in Christ, simple and fairly independent of most doctrine, leads to salvation. As we grow in Christ, we grow in both our knowledge (doctrine) and in holiness (behavior). Very, very little doctrine is required for salvation - a knowledge of my own sin, repentance for it, and a faith in God to save me from it.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 8/20/2008 11:30:40 AM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
Can I be saved if Christ is the son of Larry and I believe that? (he was a good man, teacher, healer, prophet of God)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Rob Bell - 8/20/2008 11:31:22 AM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3143
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
I believe it's in AGO that McLaren discusses allowing people to be a follower of Jesus while leaving them in their own religion. I am sure someone has the direct quote. Whoa, that's scary! If it's really the way he believes, then Matt 18:6 is very applicable. But is there any evidence that Bell has agreed with this false doctrine?
quote:
You don't know what you are talking about on your last statement. Bell lives in area that I would say that you would not live in. Called the slums. Where crime and drugs deals go down everyday. I read something on this last week. Here is an exerpt from an article, "Rob Bell: three things to appreciate and three reasons he is controversial":
quote:
At considerable sacrifice, which Bell rarely talks about, he and his family have moved into an urban area and are trying to care for their poor neighbors.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
