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You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/18/2008 10:25:28 AM
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Liveloved
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from men; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
These were Jesus' words to some of the religious people of His day. And they are a good warning to us today. (Matt 23:13)
What are ways in which you might be shutting off the kingdom of heaven from others because you haven't entered in or aren't living in the truth or your example is keeping others from entering?
< Message edited by Liveloved -- 8/18/2008 12:34:42 PM >
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/18/2008 11:01:40 AM
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earthless
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Jesus was speaking to those dead in their sin, not saved.
Also, if you haven't entered in, you're not a born-again believer. So I don't see why this question is being directed to self-professing Christians.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/18/2008 11:49:29 AM
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stampinlady
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I don't believe we keep others from God because that would mean we are gods. We don't save people, that's God's job. BUT we do have the repsonability to "go and make desciples."
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Deb
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/18/2008 12:27:56 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
Jesus was speaking to those dead in their sin, not saved.
Also, if you haven't entered in, you're not a born-again believer. So I don't see why this question is being directed to self-professing Christians.
Earthless,
Certainly He was speaking to dead men who thought they were alive!
Doesn't that describe many today?
And if we have entered in, don't you think we can say, do and act in ways that keep others from entering in? (just as these religious people did)
Am I wrong to listen to every word that proceeds out of Jesus' mouth and take it to heart and ask myself 'in what ways am I doing this'?
For example, as I fellowshipped with the Lord this morning, this passage showed me how I had shared something with an unbeliever at the gym that I should have kept silent about---it was one of those things that could be something that keeps him from Jesus. So I need to be more careful, thoughtful regarding what I share with unbelievers. That's how the Lord speaks to me through His word. Are you telling me that is wrong? LL
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/18/2008 12:31:34 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1895
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quote:
I don't believe we keep others from God because that would mean we are gods. We don't save people, that's God's job. BUT we do have the repsonability to "go and make desciples."
Deb,
Jesus says you can (keep others from God). No, we don't save people but the point in this warning is that there are things we can say and do that keep people from God. So I'm asking for examples, for people to think about this just as Jesus is asking us to think about this and apply it as a warning to ourselves.
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/18/2008 12:31:37 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Earthless,
Certainly He was speaking to dead men who thought they were alive!
Doesn't that describe many today?
It sure does. But this particular forum is for those that profess to be born-again believers. Hence, we're not dead in our sin.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
And if we have entered in, don't you think we can say, do and act in ways that keep others from entering in? (just as these religious people did)
Yes, absolutely so. My comment was in regards to your words.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Am I wrong to listen to every word that proceeds out of Jesus' mouth and take it to heart and ask myself 'in what ways am I doing this'?
No, but in your studies do remember that context is key.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
For example, as I fellowshipped with the Lord this morning, this passage showed me how I had shared something with an unbeliever at the gym that I should have kept silent about---it was one of those things that could be something that keeps him from Jesus. So I need to be more careful, thoughtful regarding what I share with unbelievers. That's how the Lord speaks to me through His word. Are you telling me that is wrong? LL
No, I am not telling you it is wrong. Conviction from the Holy Spirit is a MUCH needed thing, a wonderful thing to ask for and experience.
Again, my comments were about your OP and its wording. No biggie.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/18/2008 12:40:19 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1895
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quote:
Again, my comments were about your OP and its wording. No biggie.
I did an edit---please let me know if you think this better expresses what I intended to ask. I do appreciate your comments/thoughts. 
I do know that context is crucial. (But my explanation is below.)
However, I see a tendency for people to disregard much or all of Jesus' dialogue with the scribes and pharisees as if those are words for 'that group of people' and not for you and me. I believe these warnings are for us ALL THE MORE because we are alive, claiming to be alive, and a watching world sees and hears all we say and do.
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/18/2008 1:52:31 PM
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stampinlady
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quote:
Jesus says you can (keep others from God).
I just consulted Matt. Henry's commentary and he says, "They(the pharisees) did all they could to keep people from accepting Christ.
I don't think a believer can do this. We may not set a good example, but I don't see how a true believer could do this.
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Deb
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/18/2008 2:10:52 PM
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Little_1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
from men; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
These were Jesus' words to some of the religious people of His day...... And they are a good warning to us today. (Matt 23:13)
I agree with you 100% that these were the words of Jesus to the 'religious' people of His day and they are still very much relevant to 'religious' people today but not for Christians however in this particular context.
I also agree that all God's children need to examine our hearts and intentions regularly before the Lord and Scripture encourages us to do so by way of David's example:
Psalm 139:23-24
Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
I don't believe a Christian would do all they could to prevent a non Christian from accepting Christ (as was the case of these non Christian albeit 'religious' people in the passage you shared) but I do believe we need to be careful how we live in front of non Christians because our testimonies may certainly have either a positive or a negative influence. However, I don't believe for one moment that someone else's salvation is totally dependant on a Christian's influence (good or bad). That would be like saying the power of the Holy Spirit was less powerful than the influence of somone who was not walking in God's ways! However, I would much rather have a positive influence in anothers life than a negative one and therefore be rewarded in Heaven for such.
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/18/2008 2:15:46 PM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
What are ways in which you might be shutting off the kingdom of heaven from others because you haven't entered in or aren't living in the truth or your example is keeping others from entering?
I nor you, nor anyone can keep another from entering the kingdom.
If that person is supposed to be a part of the kingdom, then we have no power to stop it.
He is Sovereign, Almighty and Powerful. Nothing will keep His chosen from Him.
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"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/18/2008 3:19:09 PM
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Liveloved
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Don't you suppose all of these things are exactly what these individuals thought?
How can 'this man' be speaking to us?---we're God's men, living righteous lives.
How can righteous, godly men be keeping others out of the kingdom of God?
Yet these were Jesus' words to the good people of His day. These were the ones who studied the scripture. These were the ones who knew the scripture. These were the ones who practiced what the scriptures said.
Yet Jesus over and over describes them as hard hearted and stiff necked. Perhaps because they did not apply these scriptures to themselves?
I'm not trying to be hard on any one of you. But I am concerned that we can eliminate ourselves from hearing Jesus' words and intentions, excusing ourselves because we're 'in'. Isn't that just what these individuals did as well? They knew God. So this man was speaking foolishness to them---they already had it.
I fear that if we take everything this 'contextually' we can eliminate ourselves from truly hearing what the Spirit says.
No one's salvation is MY responsibility yet Jesus is clearly saying here that our actions CAN keep people from God. So I'm asking how? how can we apply this to ourselves? what do we need to be aware of? what was it that these people were doing that was keeping others from the Lord? was it their pride? thinking they had the answers? not being aware of the needs of others? being self concerned rather than focused on others?
Anyway, I guess if you don't think it applies I'm barking up the wrong tree.
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/18/2008 3:27:56 PM
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deliveredarling
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Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God {is} for us, who {is} against us?
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
Rom 8:34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
Rom 8:35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36 Just as it is written, "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."
Rom 8:37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As it is written above, I believe it. I'm just not powerful enough to prevent another from entering the kingdom.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/18/2008 3:31:21 PM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
No one's salvation is MY responsibility yet Jesus is clearly saying here that our actions CAN keep people from God. So I'm asking how? how can we apply this to ourselves? what do we need to be aware of? what was it that these people were doing that was keeping others from the Lord? was it their pride? thinking they had the answers? not being aware of the needs of others? being self concerned rather than focused on others?
Our actions can certainly deter people from seeking the kingdom. maybe even delay it. But, if God wants that person, there is nothing that can stop it.
Our actions are more of a discouragement and can cause another to stumble, rather than keeping them from the kingdom.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/18/2008 3:46:25 PM
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Wild-Rose
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quote:
Yet these were Jesus' words to the good people of His day. These were the ones who studied the scripture. These were the ones who knew the scripture. These were the ones who practiced what the scriptures said.
No, you are mistaken. Jesus called them Hypocrites in the verse you gave us, Matt 23:13. These are the people who did NOT do good. Have you read the chapter in context? Look at the next verse. They were taking the homes of widows (Woe to you!) He calls them "Sons of Hell" Wow! a big Woe to you there. He calls them foolish and blind. This is the chapter of the Seven Woes. Read the whole thing. Then you will understand why we protest that Jesus' words were not meant for born again Christians but for the blind who are leading the blind.
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Wild-Rose
Rejoice that your name is written in heaven. Luke 10:20
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/19/2008 6:38:11 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1895
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I think we fail to truly listen to hear what the Spirit is saying. 
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/19/2008 6:56:06 PM
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deliveredarling
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I think we need to remember that just because one sees it one way does not mean that they are not listening to the Spirit. A different view, doesn't mean another is wrong. OTOH, a collective agreement, doesn't mean one is right either.
The implication of your last posts, suggests that you are hearing from the Spirit and the ones who disagree are not.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/20/2008 2:14:06 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1895
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quote:
I think we need to remember that just because one sees it one way does not mean that they are not listening to the Spirit. A different view, doesn't mean another is wrong. OTOH, a collective agreement, doesn't mean one is right either.
The implication of your last posts, suggests that you are hearing from the Spirit and the ones who disagree are not.
DD,
Throughout scripture Jesus says "he who has an ear to hear let him hear what the Spirit says". I am saying the same.
Why was Jesus continually saying this? Why in the Revelation was He calling the churches back to listening to the Spirit?
Because our human tendency is to think we 'know it', that we have the final word or that we've got it all figured out. That's what people did then and that's what people do today.
So you dismiss this Matthew passage because it is addressed to the scribes and pharisees and no one can prevent someone else from entering the kingdom of heaven. Why?
Jesus says these men could. If they could why couldn't you? If you read Matthew Henry, you will hear him asking the same questions. Men can and do prevent others from entering the kingdom of heaven. (Oh, if you're a true Calvinist you know that those who are going to be saved will be saved. And ultimately that IS what I believe to be true.) However, Jesus is speaking very strong words in this passage and I think we need to not discount them because we don't think we're a pharisee or a hypocrite so they don't apply to us. I think we need to seek to understand what these individuals were doing that was preventing others from coming into the kingdom so that we can avoid the same. Perhaps if you'd change the thought from 'prevent' to 'discourage' you'd have an easier time doing this.
For example, those who were selling in the temple that Jesus chased out were preventing others from entering the kingdom. In another place Jesus speaks of tying heavy loads on the backs of others. So I ask, Lord, how do we do that? What am I doing that prevents or discourages others from wanting to know You?
I'm not trying to sound 'right' or 'smart'. I'm truly wanting to encourage us to hear the Spirit and not rely on what man says. So if Matthew Henry says it do you believe it? You see, ultimately, I don't care what Matthew Henry says. It is what the Spirit says that I listen to.
And I consider every word that proceeds out of the Lord's mouth to be for me, for my good. So I listen. And I let the Spirit speak to me, teaching me how this applies to me.
My husband was recently on a week long trip with a man who is a Jew. My husband has had great opportunity to share Jesus with this man. At the end of the trip, this man told my husband that seeing Christ through my husband makes him desire to be a Christian. That was a tremendous thing. Now, if being with my husband can make someone truly desire to know Christ, couldn't the opposite as in their having less desire or no desire to know Jesus happen as well? I think so. And I think this is just what Jesus is talking about in this passage. And I want to hear all the Spirit says.
Anyway those are my thoughts. Love you, LL
< Message edited by Liveloved -- 8/20/2008 2:23:21 PM >
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/20/2008 2:22:25 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1895
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quote:
Yes, sometimes we do and sometimes we don't.
As I told DD, I'm just speaking what Jesus frequently spoke throughout scripture. Our human tendency is to put God in a box, think we understand, and then not continue to learn or be willing to hear and understand greater and deeper things the Spirit might be wanting to communicate. Such as when Jesus spoke to John in the Revelation. The churches were going about what they thought was correct teaching and understanding, yet Jesus is calling them to wake up, to get right and do things differently. So I am just encouraging others to do what I do---listen and hear what the Spirit is speaking to me about each and every word that proceeds from God's mouth. Just because he's addressing the scribes and pharisees doesn't mean I don't need to listen up and learn. I do. So I'm just sharing what He encourages me to do.
If we could actually shut off the kingdom wouldn't we be responsible for others salvation? If that were possible one could use it as an excuse when they stand before God and we know that's not how it works.
Why would Jesus tell these individuals that they WERE shutting off the kingdom from others if this were not possible, Deb? I believe that those who are to be saved will be saved. But Jesus is giving a stern warning here and I think we need to be willing to listen to this warning and ask what is Jesus saying to me? What are ways in which I can shut off or discourage others from entering the kingdom of God?
The Pharisee's were keeping people away because they weren't teaching what Jesus was teaching.
The only way I see this working today would be by other religious leaders of Buddism, Islam, Judiasim, etc. . .
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/20/2008 2:34:31 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1989
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quote:
Why would Jesus tell these individuals that they WERE shutting off the kingdom from others if this were not possible,
He told them this because they DID NOT believe He was the Christ.
That's what's being missed here. Not that they were pharisees, that was their title. They were religious leaders of a religion that didn't believe in Christ.
These same types of people are not your audience here.
They intentionally tried to divert people from Christ because He was a threat to them.
On a side note: Jesus has messages for us specifically. He may be saying something to you, that is for you. That doesn't mean that it applies to everyone here. He may have a different meaning for someone viewing or another participant. We can't discount that, at all.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/21/2008 7:05:09 PM
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Wild-Rose
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From: Upstate NY
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quote:
So you dismiss this Matthew passage because it is addressed to the scribes and pharisees and no one can prevent someone else from entering the kingdom of heaven. Why?
If somebody "dismissed" the scripture, please show me where that happened. I don't think anyone dismissed any part of the Bible. We are merely trying to read it in context.
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Wild-Rose
Rejoice that your name is written in heaven. Luke 10:20
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/21/2008 9:22:19 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1895
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quote:
Believers may be stumbling block at times or set bad example, but we don't intentionally keep people from the Kingdom.
Where does Jesus use the word 'intentionally'? What He says is that you shut off or don't allow. The word 'intentionally' was inserted by someone else.
And what you are saying (re: being a stumbling block or bad example) is exactly the question I originally asked. Believers (or those who consider themselves to be believers but are deceived) might shut off or keep others from entering the kingdom. So I was asking how, in what ways could we be doing this?
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