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RE: Rick Warren to interview candidates - 8/17/2008 2:19:53 PM
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todd_t
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From: The North Woods
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quote:
I also liked what [Obama] said about the education system and increasing teacher salaries and bonuses for performance.
The thing that set off my spider-sense with this remark was that I'm not sure if teacher's unions would allow something like this.
A good friend of mine is a middle-school principal, and he sometimes deals with teachers who refuse to do things (like put in extra after-school time for kids) defined as being outside union contract boundaries.
So I'm not sure if a union would dig their heels in regarding some teachers getting bonuses for good performances, and some not (as goofy as that sounds, but unions are often goofy things).
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Rick Warren to interview candidates - 8/17/2008 2:20:45 PM
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inthysite
Posts: 770
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
As I stated above, abortion is such a polarizing issue that persons from both sides will vote along traditional party lines.
Either way, it's not going to be the critical issue that will propel this election, nor affect independent voters very much.
Look for economic positions to be the drivers there.
I agree that the abortion issue will not sway anyone either way, you either pro-life or pro-choice.
My point though was more towards the dishonesty of NObama. This won't matter to Democrats who will vote for him no matter what but it may affect the independent and undecided vote.
NObama continually stumps on the fact that he is different from all the politicians in Washington but his actions continue to prove otherwise.
Another example is that he said abortion rates are as high as ever and nothing that the current administration has done has changed that.
Well this is juat another blatant lie:
According to the study released Thursday, the abortion rate in 2005 was lower than the rate in 1975, two years after Roe v. Wade. The rate is calculated as the percentage of women of childbearing age having abortions.
"In 2005 we had an abortion rate of 19.4 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15 to 44," said Rachel Jones, a senior research associate with the group and the study's lead author. That's down "considerably" from a high point of 29.3 abortions per 1,000 women in 1980, she said.
There was also a drop in the actual number of abortions performed. In 2005, there were 1.2 million abortions in the U.S., down 8 percent from 1.3 million in 2000.
Abortion Rate Falls to 30-Year Low
_____________________________
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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RE: Rick Warren to interview candidates - 8/17/2008 3:07:45 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1961
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quote:
ORIGINAL: inthysite
Another example is that he said abortion rates are as high as ever and nothing that the current administration has done has changed that.
That isn't what he said. What he said was that we've had a pro-life president in power for 8 years and in that time, abortions haven't gone down. It's wrong, but it's not all that wrong. Your own article shows that abortions have gone down maybe 10% over his entire tenure. That's good, but it could easily be attributed to factors other than federal policies, which was the point that Obama was trying to make - that despite having a pro-life president and a bunch of conservative supreme court justices, nothing substantial has been done.
-Dan.
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Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Rick Warren to interview candidates - 8/17/2008 3:30:41 PM
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Evangel70
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quote:
He says that the question regarding the point at which a baby gets human rights is above his pay grade.
I would consider myself pro-life (or perhaps more like Obama said, more pro-whole life, since my greatest concern if what happens to the child AFTER it is born) yet I would probably have answered the question of when life begins in a similar matter. McCain may have given the canned right-wing answer of life begining at conception but I doubt that he gave that answer much thought.
For instance, if you believe that "life" and all the rights afforded to a human life begins at conception, do you charge parents with first degree murder if they have a miscarriage or if their attempt at in-vitro fertilization do not work? For that matter, do you charge parents or doctors with murder if IVF only results in the implantation of one fetus instead of 6? IMO the correct answer to when "life" is God's to answer and not fallible man. Just my 2 cents here.
_____________________________
May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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RE: Rick Warren to interview candidates - 8/17/2008 3:36:08 PM
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Evangel70
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He's definitely NOT a Christian... A walk with Christ doesn't include what Obama's believes is right in the sight of God.
Unlike yourself, I believe the bible teaches that ONLY GOD determines the final destiny of a man. Ultimately, whether or not Obama or McCain or you or I are really Christian is between the individual and God. It may be true that McCain or Obama may just be telling people what they want to hear about their faith. Man may be fooled but GOD cannot.
_____________________________
May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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RE: Rick Warren to interview candidates - 8/17/2008 4:11:25 PM
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Stephanos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
quote:
He's definitely NOT a Christian... A walk with Christ doesn't include what Obama's believes is right in the sight of God.
Unlike yourself, I believe the bible teaches that ONLY GOD determines the final destiny of a man. Ultimately, whether or not Obama or McCain or you or I are really Christian is between the individual and God. It may be true that McCain or Obama may just be telling people what they want to hear about their faith. Man may be fooled but GOD cannot.
Actually the bible is quite clear that we WILL know believers and unbelievers based on their fruit. Ultimately God is the only judge, but if someone here on earth regularly produced evil and ungodly fruit, we DO have a SOLID idea on where that person stands with the Lord. IF we go by your logic, we should not share the gospel, because who are we to say if someone is saved or not. My uncle, who is VERY liberal (actually on Obama's Hawaii campaign staff) gets offended when people share the gospel with him. He does not respond, thanks but I already knwo the Lord, rather he gets upset that a person would dare question him on such things. And it is this menatlity that I see in statements like yours. Since we dont know, then we should not even approach the issue with these people (Presidential nom or not).
Again, based on the fruit that a man (or woman) produces we CAN get a glimpse onto their status with God. Take forinstance King David, while he did have some bad fruit, he also had some great good fruit as well. however soemone like King Ahab....Not a ounce of good fruit to be found. Do you really think only God could see where each was going to go? Or can you see it too?
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RE: Rick Warren to interview candidates - 8/17/2008 4:33:37 PM
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inthysite
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That isn't what he said. What he said was that we've had a pro-life president in power for 8 years and in that time, abortions haven't gone down. It's wrong, but it's not all that wrong.
Again, my point wasn't about policies or even abortions but rather about truth. NObama lied, or twisted the truth, or exaggerated or whatever you want to call it, to make the current administration look bad and to make himself look good in order to gain points and win an election. Period!
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For instance, if you believe that "life" and all the rights afforded to a human life begins at conception, do you charge parents with first degree murder if they have a miscarriage or if their attempt at in-vitro fertilization do not work? For that matter, do you charge parents or doctors with murder if IVF only results in the implantation of one fetus instead of 6? IMO the correct answer to when "life" is God's to answer and not fallible man.
Would you charge the parents with murder whose child died of SIDS? No of course not because they didn't kill the child. Neither do parents who have suffered a miscarriage, so this analogy is pointless.
Is disposing of fertilized eggs wrong. In my opinion, yes. The doctor successfully fertilized an egg thereby producing life, but rather than give that life a chance to thrive they starve it of it's nutrients by disposing of it.
And not to change subject but does the bible even support the issue of IFV. It doesn't. As a matter of fact there are many verses that talk about how God had closed a woman's womb so she could not become pregnant, Sarah and Abraham come to mine just for starters. They did their own version of AFV and look what happened, it started another race of people who are now known as Muslims.
_____________________________
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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RE: Rick Warren to interview candidates - 8/17/2008 7:12:45 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 1590
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quote:
Another example is that he said abortion rates are as high as ever and nothing that the current administration has done has changed that.
quote:
That's good, but it could easily be attributed to factors other than federal policies, which was the point that Obama was trying to make - that despite having a pro-life president and a bunch of conservative supreme court justices, nothing substantial has been done.
I agree, and if abortions have dropped in recent years, how could the Bush administration possibly take credit for that? If anything, any decrease in abortions is more due to expanded use of birth control that what a president says.
But IMO, what Obama was driving at in his "pay grade" comment speaks to the fundamental difference between how liberals and conservatives view abortion.
To the latter, the question of where human life begins is black and white (which again, is odd considering I don't see pro-life groups praying on the steps of in-vitro clinics), and to the former, it's gray.
To me, the issue is gray. And apparently it's gray to Obama as well.
quote:
Is disposing of fertilized eggs wrong. In my opinion, yes. The doctor successfully fertilized an egg thereby producing life, but rather than give that life a chance to thrive they starve it of it's nutrients by disposing of it.
What you're missing here is that human eggs are the property of the donors, and it is up to them as to whether they be discarded, implanted, frozen for later, or donated to a embryo bank.
In other words, the government (rightly) has no say in the decision.
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Rick Warren to interview candidates - 8/17/2008 7:20:20 PM
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colliefan
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From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
To me, the issue is gray. And apparently it's gray to Obama as well.
So, Barry thinks it is OK to kill a baby that is living outside her mother's womb. Pretty soon he will be in line with Pete Singer who thinks it is OK to kill a baby up to two months old. So when does the Messiah think life begins? When she is old enough to receive a welfare check?
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RE: Rick Warren to interview candidates - 8/17/2008 7:23:05 PM
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todd_t
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From: The North Woods
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quote:
So, Barry thinks it is OK to kill a baby that is living outside her mother's womb. Pretty soon he will be in line with Pete Singer who thinks it is OK to kill a baby up to two months old. So when does the Messiah think life begins? When she is old enough to receive a welfare check?
Next time, try asking me questions in an adult fashion and I may respond.
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Rick Warren to interview candidates - 8/17/2008 7:26:10 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
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From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
So, Barry thinks it is OK to kill a baby that is living outside her mother's womb. Pretty soon he will be in line with Pete Singer who thinks it is OK to kill a baby up to two months old. So when does the Messiah think life begins? When she is old enough to receive a welfare check?
Next time, try asking me questions in an adult fashion and I may respond.
Like Barry, can't handle the truth?
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RE: Rick Warren to interview candidates - 8/17/2008 7:30:34 PM
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todd_t
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Like Barry, can't handle the truth?
Whatever... I get more intelligent retorts from my pal's four year-old daughter.
Let me know when you want to have a mature exchange of ideas, and then we'll talk. I'm not into gibbering.
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Rick Warren to interview candidates - 8/17/2008 7:46:13 PM
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Dubya
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From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
But IMO, what Obama was driving at in his "pay grade" comment speaks to the fundamental difference between how liberals and conservatives view abortion.
To the latter, the question of where human life begins is black and white (which again, is odd considering I don't see pro-life groups praying on the steps of in-vitro clinics), and to the former, it's gray.
You are probably right about what Obama may have meant. But my question remains, how can he say that the issue is gray regarding the life of an abortion survivor? I would say that the vast majority of the people viewing that interview would agree that a baby, living and breathing, deserves basic human rights... IMO he needs to answer how his actions in the Illinois legislature can be reconciled with the "above my pay grade" statement. Clearly, he believes that a living breathing baby has no human rights if his mother wanted hm dead to begin with since that is the way he voted in the legislature.
I really respect your support of your candidate but it seems to me that it is really hard to dodge this issue. His actions do not line up with his words at that interview.
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RE: Rick Warren to interview candidates - 8/17/2008 7:56:03 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 1590
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From: The North Woods
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But my question remains, how can he say that the issue is gray regarding the life of an abortion survivor? I would say that the vast majority of the people viewing that interview would agree that a baby, living and breathing, deserves basic human rights
I can't personally speak for Obama, but I would imagine if a fetus survives an abortion (which I can only imagine that means it was badly botched) that it's fate would come down to the mother's wishes. And assuming that mother came into have the abortion performed in the first place, I would expect she would not want that fetus to survive.
I'll be the first to admit this particular issue is emotionally radioactive. I'm not without feelings on the matter, but I would hope these incidents are extremely rare.
quote:
I really respect your support of your candidate but it seems to me that it is really hard to dodge this issue. His actions do not line up with his words at that interview.
Your criticism is a fair one. I do not believe that Obama walks on water. He's human, and fallible like anyone else. Plus, he was fully aware he was in a evangelical ballpark where abortion is a very emotional topic. I would have struggled with Warren's question also.
Anyhow, thanks for sharing your feelings. I appreciate it.
< Message edited by todd_t -- 8/17/2008 8:06:34 PM >
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Rick Warren to interview candidates - 8/17/2008 8:06:31 PM
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lightshineon
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Wow, I like Georgia, went there this summer the first time, met the most wonderful young man that ran a waffle house in Georgia, who was a great man of color. I was born in Amarillo, so hey Julius we have some of the same roots ( sort of)  cool.Muskogee is not far from me either. Um will say something about Rick Warren, I like him, and his book, it changed many peoples lives including my dads. I do not see him as unbalanced, but, in the eye the beholder. It is on tv now. My mom was talking how smooth Obama is, she watched it last night, she does not like McCain at all, does not trust Obama because the Middle East thing. She would like him, I could tell if she was not afraid of him. She is not a predudice person, I will promise you that. I do not trust smooth and polished in a pastor, or politcan. Remember the snake was smooth to Eve, saying " Did God really say?"
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ORIGINAL: saved9201
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ORIGINAL: lightshineon
now Julius we okies are as up to date as you you guy's from Lousiana. (LOL) 
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ORIGINAL: saved9201
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ORIGINAL: rcjames
I am going to Tivo it, with more of an interest in learning about Warren's position than any new revelation about the candidates.
I would just like to know if Warren's political agenda is as far off base as his book.
Thanks
RC
They've got Tivo in Oklahoma?
- Julius
For the record, I live in Georgia. But I grew up in Austin, Texas and went to a university there that has a little bit of a rivalry with a school in Oklahoma. But it's all in fun. My ancestors (great grandparents on my mothers side) were from Muskogee.
I would tell you what Longhorn fans say keeps the state of Texas from falling in the Gulf of Mexico, but it wouldn't be appropriate in a Christian forum.
- Julius
< Message edited by lightshineon -- 8/17/2008 8:12:44 PM >
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Rick Warren to interview candidates - 8/17/2008 11:04:37 PM
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Evangel70
Posts: 551
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quote:
Actually the bible is quite clear that we WILL know believers and unbelievers based on their fruit. Ultimately God is the only judge, but if someone here on earth regularly produced evil and ungodly fruit, we DO have a SOLID idea on where that person stands with the Lord.
I totally agree with you that the bible teaches that we will know true believers by their fruit and that there will be MANY who call Jesus "Lord" and even perform miracles in his name, to whom the Lord will say "I never knew you".
That being said, unless you are personally involved in a politician's life and inner circle, you really have limited access as to what his "fruit" looks like. For example, George W. Bush and Ronald Regan both claim to be Christian yet neither one of them attended church service while in office; both the Clintons, Barack Obama, George Bush Sr. and Jimmy Carter also claim the same Christian faith yet not one of these people have lived public lives or made public policies that were 100% in line with biblical teachings. Each one of them, like each one of us, has sin in their lives and God does not rank sin.
I can have a pretty good idea where men in my discipleship group stand before God as I see the good, bad and ugly in their lives on a regular basis; I have a pretty good idea where my wife, kids and immediate family stands before God from discussions we have and the daily interaction that allows me to see the fruit in their lives as they see the fruit in mine. As far as where a politician stands before God, I can confidently say that ONLY God and those in the politicians immediate circle would know for certain (and truly ONLY God as he is the only one with the ability to see into a person's heart regardless of any "outward" fruit).
Just as we hear stories of child molestors who used to be elders in churches or church leaders who fall because of heterosexual or homosexual infidelity; we know that people in power can easily fool other people by saying or doing the right things.
I'd love to see a debate where both Obama and McCain are hooked up to a lie detector test and we hear an audible "that answer is true (or false) like the game show "Moment of Truth". Now that's a debate I would pay to be a part of.
_____________________________
May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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RE: Rick Warren to interview candidates - 8/18/2008 12:12:32 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
Unlike yourself, I believe the bible teaches that ONLY GOD determines the final destiny of a man.
Where Mr.Obama ends up isn't the issue... At this point he's not walking a path lit by the word of God by his own words and deeds. The bible doesn't teach we are to accept a profession of belief and ignore one's actions. Anyone that holds this view must therefore deny that there are phony Christians and or false teachers/prophets.
Btw... Do you believe everyone is saved?
quote:
Ultimately, whether or not Obama or McCain or you or I are really Christian is between the individual and God.
Ultimately, yet, but here on earth one doesn't have to accept that simply because a person claims God they are a Christian... If a chapter of Pedophiles for Christ started up would you believe they were sincere in their claim of Christ?
quote:
It may be true that McCain or Obama may just be telling people what they want to hear about their faith. Man may be fooled but GOD cannot.
Anyone that believes a person can openly defy God and at the same time claim his name and be a Christian is being fooled... And if anyone thinks the bible is the means to defend such actions is really being fooled, quite the opposite... As stated, it would be better for Mr. Obama to deny God than to mock him in the manner he does...
John
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RE: Rick Warren to interview candidates - 8/18/2008 12:18:15 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
I can't personally speak for Obama, but I would imagine if a fetus survives an abortion (which I can only imagine that means it was badly botched) that it's fate would come down to the mother's wishes. And assuming that mother came into have the abortion performed in the first place, I would expect she would not want that fetus to survive.
Of course, she paid someone to murder the child... Btw... Don't mother raise children and not pay to have them killed?
quote:
He's human, and fallible like anyone else. Plus, he was fully aware he was in a evangelical ballpark where abortion is a very emotional topic.
Any thoughts on what he's going to do with he called on the carpet for his deeds regarding this subject and it's God asking the questions?
John
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RE: Rick Warren to interview candidates - 8/18/2008 12:21:22 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3549
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I liked McCains straight forward style, he kicked Obamas buns, just my opinion which counts for nothing, but, it is what I think about it. Though neither of the two, are who I want.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Rick Warren to interview candidates - 8/18/2008 12:29:21 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
That being said, unless you are personally involved in a politician's life and inner circle, you really have limited access as to what his "fruit" looks like.
Hardly... Their fruit or lack thereof can be blatant... Obama's support for abortion and the homosexual agenda is direct and purposeful rebellion against God, and given that it's done from a position of authority the sin is that much more grievous... Which btw taints what if any fruit there is...
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For example, George W. Bush and Ronald Regan both claim to be Christian yet neither one of them attended church service while in office; both the Clintons, Barack Obama, George Bush Sr. and Jimmy Carter also claim the same Christian faith yet not one of these people have lived public lives or made public policies that were 100% in line with biblical teachings. Each one of them, like each one of us, has sin in their lives and God does not rank sin.
Some sins are called greater, some actions are said to be such that it would be better to have a millstone tied around your neck and to be tossed in the sea... The bible supports the concept of greater of lessor consequences for one's action and while any sin is worthy of God's wrath is quite clear that some sins bring it about more than others...
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I can have a pretty good idea where men in my discipleship group stand before God as I see the good, bad and ugly in their lives on a regular basis; I have a pretty good idea where my wife, kids and immediate family stands before God from discussions we have and the daily interaction that allows me to see the fruit in their lives as they see the fruit in mine. As far as where a politician stands before God, I can confidently say that ONLY God and those in the politicians immediate circle would know for certain (and truly ONLY God as he is the only one with the ability to see into a person's heart regardless of any "outward" fruit).
The bible doesn't support the idea that we are that blind in regards to people and as well it is clear that fruit will be there since those works are prepared beforehand by God not simply "nice things" we conjure up ourselves...
John
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RE: Rick Warren to interview candidates - 8/18/2008 12:34:51 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3549
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Well rather abortion has went down, or not in the Bush admistration, atleast he stood for what was right on this issue. I am not agreeing with every issue, but, atleast he signed laws that were good on abortion.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Rick Warren to interview candidates - 8/18/2008 2:58:16 AM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 615
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
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Where is McCain's fruit?
_____________________________
It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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