PDL Model Creates False Converts (Full Version)

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Soxfan -> PDL Model Creates False Converts (8/15/2008 11:58:11 AM)

Granger Community Church, one of the premiere Purpose-Driven churches and the 6th most influential church in America just announced the results of their Reveal Study. The results are SHOCKING but not surprising because many Bereans have been warning for years that the seeker-sensitive / purpose-driven model was creating false converts and now there is hard statistical data that backs up this claim.

Granger’s own qualitative study revealed that:

47% of those attending Granger DO NOT believe in salvation by grace.

57% of those attending Granger DO NOT believe in the authority of the Bible.

56% of those attending Granger DO NOT believe Jesus is the only way to eternal life.



Anyone still think that the "Christianity-lite" theology of Warren, Hybels, Schuller, and Osteen is a good thing?



JimboFletch -> RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts (8/15/2008 12:04:19 PM)

Soxfan, I read PDL. It was written primarily to baby Christians. There is no reason that anyone should walk away from the book doubting in salvation by grace, the authority of the Bible (that someting people criticize the book for OVER-doing), or that there is any way to receive eternal life apart from Jesus.

Unless they DIDN'T read or were unable to comprehend the book and relied on critiques by jealous or Baptist-hating preachers.

And just because YOU lump PDL in with the likes of Osteen, doesn't make it so. But nice unrelated attempt to try to vaildate your prejudice premise against Warren.



Soxfan -> RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts (8/15/2008 12:08:15 PM)

Jimbo, this is the second "Seeker-sensitive" church that has done their own internal study (Willow Creek was the other), and have concluded that this model does not prepare people for a true walk with Christ.

Our church stopped doing PDL because of the fact that it provided "baby Christians" with no nourishment whatsoever.



EStan -> RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts (8/15/2008 12:12:33 PM)

I'm not going to defend PDL - I read the book, and didn't get as much out of it as others may have. Other better books have been more influential in my Christian walk. However, I see this as frankly more of a problem in those churches than with PDL. What's being preached from the pulpit on Sunday mornings? A problem that plagues TOO MANY churches in this country, IMHO.



JimboFletch -> RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts (8/15/2008 12:15:42 PM)

quote:

Our church stopped doing PDL because of the fact that it provided "baby Christians" with no nourishment whatsoever.

So you did 2 weeks of a 40 day course and the mature believers decided baby Christians weren't instantly miniature Apostle Pauls and dropped the thing? But you really think you proved something?

I'm not sure what you call seeker-sensitive, but there's a difference between dumbing down sermons like Osteen without any mention of sin or the blood or discipleship and a church that tries not to build walls with attire or music. I've never read anything by Warren that hides or minimizes salvation by grace, the authority of the Bible, or salvation through only Jesus. Never. So if there is fault, it's not PDL.



Rick4Him -> RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts (8/15/2008 1:56:38 PM)

Soxfan,

This really doesn't surprise me. I would love to see the same survey done at Saddleback. I'm sure it would produce similar results. For those who hold fast to Rick Warren, please look closer to his circle of friends and their worldviews. Warren could be described as a sheep in wolves clothing. He has deceived many small churched into believing they must do the same as Saddleback to attract unbelievers.

Guy's like Warren want to make churches look like the world instead of a church so the ungodly unregenerate will be interested, then they keep them uninterested in true Christianity by soft selling the Christian life as a social program that is good for you and the community.

We know Osteen believes there are many paths to God, I wonder if Warren feels the same.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soxfan

Granger Community Church, one of the premiere Purpose-Driven churches and the 6th most influential church in America just announced the results of their Reveal Study. The results are SHOCKING but not surprising because many Bereans have been warning for years that the seeker-sensitive / purpose-driven model was creating false converts and now there is hard statistical data that backs up this claim.

Granger’s own qualitative study revealed that:

47% of those attending Granger DO NOT believe in salvation by grace.

57% of those attending Granger DO NOT believe in the authority of the Bible.

56% of those attending Granger DO NOT believe Jesus is the only way to eternal life.



Anyone still think that the "Christianity-lite" theology of Warren, Hybels, Schuller, and Osteen is a good thing?



JimboFletch -> RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts (8/15/2008 2:04:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rick4Him

...For those who hold fast to Rick Warren...

I'm not a big fan of PDL and I don't "hold fast to Rick Warren," but mischaracterization of the book is just lame. There's a cause for the problems at Granger and Willow Creek, but it's not due to PDL because those stats do not represent problems of PDL or Warren. If you despise the man or are jealous, just say so. I can accept that better than silly charges that, like cyber rumors and urban legends, are baseless and have repeatedly been rebuted to deaf ears.

But you are free to forward it to all of your email buddies...
[8|]



WesP -> RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts (8/15/2008 2:10:15 PM)

quote:

There's a cause for the problems at Granger and Willow Creek, but it's not due to PDL because those stats do not represent problems of PDL or Warren.


Jimbo,

I agree with that. The problem is the lack of meat after the milk has been consumed.



JimboFletch -> RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts (8/15/2008 2:21:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WesP

quote:

There's a cause for the problems at Granger and Willow Creek, but it's not due to PDL because those stats do not represent problems of PDL or Warren.


Jimbo,

I agree with that. The problem is the lack of meat after the milk has been consumed.

Which, IMHO, is the fault of the church that stops feeding the flock beyond PDL. It's a little like blaming a freshman Introduction to Medicine course at a medical college for the quacks it graduates 4 years later. Nobody should expect an introduction to be the entire course of study.



WesP -> RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts (8/15/2008 2:26:27 PM)

Exactly. We grow in our walk because we keep walking. Standing still gets us nothing more than what we already have.



earthless -> RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts (8/15/2008 3:34:19 PM)

I am not shocked - but I cannot 100% blame PDL for those results. PDL is but a portion of a larger problem, a cancer on what is termed 'Christianity'.



WesP -> RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts (8/15/2008 3:52:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

I am not shocked - but I cannot 100% blame PDL for those results. PDL is but a portion of a larger problem, a cancer on what is termed 'Christianity'.


Complete Christianity-Lite from start to finish.



jayvance -> RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts (8/15/2008 4:06:16 PM)

I'm not a PDL disciple, and I'm not a huge Rick Warren fan. I can't STAND "The Message" translation he loves to use. But I've been through 40 Days of Purpose and 40 Days of Community at our church, and I've also attended a small groups conference at Saddleback and had a chance to meet some of the people who work behind the scenes and get a little better feel for the way they do things there. I can tell you that these people put a great deal of emphasis on discipleship; they're not just about creating "baby Christians" and then forgetting about them. But it would be foolish to assume that all churches which use the PDL approach will all be equally successful in creating true disciples. So lumping all PDL churches together (and lumping them in with churches like Willowcreek which don't even use PDL) isn't reasonable, IMHO.

PDL is not some magic formula. It's a way of looking at Christian growth and maturity using Biblical principles. Like any other "program," the results you get will depend on a number of other factors besides simply using the PDL approach. Leaders' personalities have a great deal to do with how people respond to ANY program, that's just the way it is, right or wrong. The condition of the hearts of both the leadership and the church family will also have a significant impact. There are just too many variables to paint every church that uses PDL with the same brush. Furthermore, whether or not I agree with everything Rick Warren says or does, that doesn't change the fact that the PDL approach to Christian growth makes a lot of sense, it resonates with people and has prompted many to pursue a closer experience with Christ. In that context it's been a blessing to the Christian community. But again, it's not a magic wand, it's not the last best hope for mankind, and there are all kinds of ways to mess it up--just like any other Christian growth program.

Jay



Peter_Gunn -> RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts (8/15/2008 5:10:15 PM)

I guess you've heard by now that Rick Warren himself will be interviewing the presidential candidates tomorrow night? 8PM...I think on FoxNews, but not sure.

I've been thinking that this whole PDL thing (doctrine, theology, whatever) will play hugely into the end times church scenario. Very middle of the road, pleasing to everyone, world accepts it very readily. A little too warm and fuzzy for my liking.

Don't know...but my antennae are way up!



JimboFletch -> RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts (8/15/2008 5:16:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn

I guess you've heard by now that Rick Warren himself will be interviewing the presidential candidates tomorrow night? 8PM...I think on FoxNews, but not sure.

I've been thinking that this whole PDL thing (doctrine, theology, whatever) will play hugely into the end times church scenario. Very middle of the road, pleasing to everyone, world accepts it very readily. A little too warm and fuzzy for my liking.

Don't know...but my antennae are way up!

Peter, spend a couple of bucks and read the book (don't worry, the money doesn't go into Warren's pocket). Why, just read the post above yours. Nothing beats an informed opinion.



EStan -> RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts (8/15/2008 5:25:29 PM)

or just check your church or local public library. I guarantee you can find a copy. It's a decent book.



TrustingGod -> RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts (8/15/2008 6:09:57 PM)

I read it and didn't find any theological problems - but I wasn't looking. My boss read it and it changed his life.

If it is lite on Christianity, it certainly points people in the right direction. One cannot rely on one book to grow you -- unless of course it is the Bible.



jayvance -> RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts (8/15/2008 6:32:31 PM)

quote:

If it is lite on Christianity, it certainly points people in the right direction. One cannot rely on one book to grow you -- unless of course it is the Bible.


Very true. PDL is just a tool and shouldn't be viewed as anything other than that, in my view. Pointing people in the right direction, as you say, is crucial in the culture in which we live. A lot of old-school Christians (of which I've been one most of my life) have a hard time coming to grips with how radically our society has changed, and how differently today's unchurched people view Christianity and Christian churches. Fifty years ago I think that even among people who weren't Christians there was at least a general understanding of what Christianity and going to church was all about. That's simply not true today. There is at least one and maybe two entire generations living now who by and large know little or nothing about Christianity, and what they do know doesn't impress them. Doing church like we did 50 years ago just isn't going to cut it. We can call it "Christianity lite" or whatever, but "Christianity as usual" isn't getting the job done, I'll tell you that for sure.



armydude -> RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts (8/15/2008 6:52:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soxfan

Granger’s own qualitative study revealed that:

47% of those attending Granger DO NOT believe in salvation by grace.

57% of those attending Granger DO NOT believe in the authority of the Bible.

56% of those attending Granger DO NOT believe Jesus is the only way to eternal life.
Which shows that they don't have 100% born again believers. Note your own words Soxfan.

___% of those attending Granger. It doesn't bring up those that declared to be born again believers (or you would surely have put that down). It says "those attending". If you point out one church that is 100% born again believers with nobody in the church that believes anything contrary to the bible, I'll point out a church that is failing in the Great Commission.

Fact is, not everyone that attends a church will agree with the bible. You shouldn't blame the church leadership for that. From what I see (which isn't the whole story, I know) it looks like these people are there and the church is welcoming them with open arms. Are you saying they shouldn't?



Soxfan -> RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts (8/15/2008 7:14:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TrustingGod

I read it and didn't find any theological problems - but I wasn't looking.


Interesting. The book is loaded with theological problems, Scripture taken out of context, the use of numerous translations to fit a point rather than the opposite, the quoting of athiests and new age thinkers, and the list goes on

I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but I actually believe that Rick Warren is an enemy of Christianity. His "all inclusive" theology and his cozying up with enemies of the faith concerns me.

I had an opportunity this week to go to Saddleback with a few fellow Celebrate Recovery leaders and respectfully declined. I'm not into "hula worship"



Peter_Gunn -> RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts (8/15/2008 7:53:32 PM)

I tried reading the book. Got through the first couple of chapters...felt it was shallow...granted, I didn't get far into it. Many friends that managed to slog through the whole thing just verified my initial thoughts. Even my daughter (who was 16 at the time) said the same thing...before even hearing what I had to say! She actually stuck with it longer than I did.

Honestly...I felt I was "reading" an Oprah show.

Sorry...just wasn't my thing. [&:]



colliefan -> RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts (8/15/2008 8:14:31 PM)

I head my church's outreach to one of the local womens prisons. Our audience is women just entering the correctional system. For the most part, a great deal of them have made a "profession of faith" at some point in their lives but have let unhealed heart wounds lead them to their crimes.

I could safely say that none of them had been discipled or catechised. A few of them had even been on their church's worship teams.

Regardless of the church model, the deeper question is the church has many converts but few disciples; why is this the case?



earthless -> RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts (8/15/2008 8:28:38 PM)

For anyone that is interested: HERE



Neeva_Candida -> RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts (8/15/2008 8:48:05 PM)

I think that one of the keys is in the subject line of the OP..."False Converts".

PDL or not. The modern, seeker-sensitive church is producing a lot of false converts. People that "come to Christ" because they believe their life will be enhanced in some way. They hope to find peace, love and happiness. Since their professions of faith were not based on an understanding of their desperate situation before a Just God and a need for repentance they have never truly been saved. Therefore it does not matter how long they have followed the "program"...they are not likely to have a correct, doctrinally-sound belief system.

~Neeva



jayvance -> RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts (8/15/2008 8:54:55 PM)

quote:

I tried reading the book. Got through the first couple of chapters...felt it was shallow...granted, I didn't get far into it.

Honestly...I felt I was "reading" an Oprah show.


If I were guessing, I'd say you've been a Christian for quite a while and come from a somewhat traditional church background, would that be accurate? The thing is, the BOOK "The Purpose Driven Life" wasn't written with you in mind. (There's a BIG difference between the PDL book and the greatly expanded PDL Christian growth program.) The book was clearly written to speak to people who have no spiritual direction to speak of, and as a matter of fact, they probably DO watch Oprah! The purpose of the book is to provide an alternative to the gospel Oprah preaches but to present it in a way that would be interesting to an Oprah viewer, if you see what I mean. Now when you get into 40 Days of Purpose and especially 40 Days of Community, which was by far the most useful to me, you get much deeper into the five areas of spiritual growth--worship, fellowship, discipleship, ministry, and evangelism. The book is merely the first step in a long process of spiritual growth.

Part of the problem we old-school Christians have to deal with is a mindset that in essence says if someone watches Oprah, for instance, we pretty much write them off as not being worth our time, as obviously they've succumbed to the high priestess of the Dark Side and are doomed forever. Of course we wouldn't SAY that, and if someone accused us of having that attitude we'd deny it vehemently. But our actions speak louder than our words. We haven't made an effort to reach out to "that crowd" because our attitude is, "Well, they know where we are, if they really want to know the truth they'll come to us." But that's TOTALLY the opposite of the way Jesus ministered and He never intended for the church to think that way. So when people like Rick Warren do something radical like try to reach the Oprah crowd, many of us recoil in horror and accuse him of "watering down the Gospel" in order to "draw a crowd." Again, I'm not going to get into a discussion of the merits of every Rick Warren theological position because I don't consider him a teacher of theology. Certainly Rick Warren the man isn't the answer to all that ails the world. I'm simply saying that his APPROACH should not be dismissed out of hand simply because "we've never done it that way." His approach is to find out what people can relate to and then present the Gospel to them in a relevant way. Both Jesus and Paul used that approach, and I for one think those are pretty good examples to follow, never mind Rick Warren.

Jay



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