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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/19/2008 1:49:05 AM
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prophet
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jayvance
Fact is, there are no doubt MANY books on the market which use only KJV, or only NIV, or only NKJV, or any other translation you want to focus on, and yet the teachings in those books are demonstrably false--not because of what version of the Bible the author quotes, but because of how the author interprets/manipulates/distorts the meaning of the Bible.
So the question on the table remains, what specific examples of false core doctrinal teachings are in The Purpose Driven Life book? Believe me, if there are some, I sincerely want to know about them.
Jay
If you start off with a paraphrase version of sorts, you would know where you would end up with, would you?
This may explain some concerns with RWs gospel. As usual with seeker friendly, sins and holiness seems to be missing....not helped by perverted paraphrasing
Warren comes close to giving the gospel in his book but never fully explains who Jesus is; nor why our sin separates us from a Holy God, nor does he concentrate on the resurrection. This is why so many consider this kind of teaching as gospel-lite. Because of this weakness of it hinders some of the essentials for understanding the gospel. The “new paradigm” seeker friendly churches (AKA Schullerism and others) diminishes teaching on sin and concentrates more on the felt needs of the people.
On page 34 in explaining that we will all stand before God at the judgment seat, God wants us to pass the test...“From the Bible we can surmise that God will ask us two crucial questions: First, 'What did you do with my Son, Jesus Christ?” God won't ask about your religious background or doctrinal views. The only thing that will matter is, did you accept what Jesus did for you and did you learn to love and trust him? Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Second, 'What did you do with what I gave you?” What did you do with your life-all the gifts, talents, relationships, and resources God gave you? Did you spend them on yourself, or did you use them for the purposes God made you for?” Preparing you for these two questions is the goal of this book. The first question will determine where you spend eternity.”
There are many cults who accept Jesus as the Son of God and believe they are serving him fulfilling God’s purpose. It would have helped if Warren was more specific, especially writing to such a broad base of different people that are reading his book. Again this is very open and can interpreted to mean anything to anyone. It would be beneficial to go more in depth in this area.
On page 37, Warren states, “If you learn to love and trust God's Son, Jesus, you will be invited to spend the rest of eternity with him.” This would have more to do with ones sanctification process than a salvation response. God draws us first to His Son and we need to repent of our sin. It is the “what for” that needs to be explained not the .
On page 58 he says, “It's time to settle this issue. Who are you going to live for yourself or God? You may hesitate, wondering whether you will have strength to live for God. Don't worry. God will give you what you need if you will just make the choice to live for him. The Bible says, “Everything that goes into a life of pleasing God has been miraculously given to us by getting to know, personally and intimately, the One who invited us to God.
Right now, God is inviting you to live for his glory by fulfilling the purposes he made you for. It's really the only way to live. Everything else is just existing. Real life begins by committing yourself completely to Jesus Christ. If you are not sure you have done this, all you need to do is receive and believe. The Bible promises, ' To all who received him, to those who believed in his name, be gave the right to become children of God.”
The short and long is - “Believe God has chosen you to have a relationship with Jesus, who died on the cross for you. Believe that no matter what you've done, God wants to forgive you.”
“Second, receive. Receive Jesus into your life as your Lord and Savior. Receive his forgiveness for your sins. Receive his Spirit, who will give you the power to fulfill your life purpose.” Wherever you are reading this, I invite you to bow your head and quietly whisper the prayer that will change your eternity: 'Jesus, I believe in you and I receive you.” Go ahead.”’
It’s not that any of this is wrong but what is missing is the explanation of our sins and Jesus' necessity to die on the cross. Why did He die? More importantly, who this Jesus you are actually believing in actually is. So I wonder do people understand who they are accepting and why? 2 Cor.5:20-21 show Jesus was indeed God. God pleads through us to have others to be reconciled to God, in Christ. There is none of this emphasis or explanation in his book. I do not hear an emphasis on ones urgent need to spiritually be born but instead on everyone’s purpose in life. Somehow this all reminds me of the past mistakes of Constantine when he legalized Christianity. The pagans later entered the church by baptism not by spiritually being born. If we have a membership boom from a message like this, what will happen? It needs to be further explained
Using the Message translation Warren quotes on p.58 John 3:36: “The Bible says, “Whoever accepts and trusts the Son gets in on everything, life complete and forever!”
This paraphrase is purposely used to soften the true impact of the Scripture that mentions wrath, punishment. The Bible really says: John 3:36 “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him” (KJV).
The Message translation quoted eliminated the punishment for refusing to believe. This is consistently missing in Warren’s book even though he cites Scriptures that have it or refer to it. Neither the holiness of God and the sinfulness of man are presented, nor explained. These are essential for understanding our sinful state and the need for a savior. Jesus is said to die for your sins, but why? The explanation is avoided, yet the book is written to people who need to know. So how can one really understand the gospel message if the main elements are left out.
http://www.letusreason.org/BookR13.htm
< Message edited by prophet -- 8/19/2008 2:07:26 AM >
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/19/2008 10:11:35 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2350
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quote:
Strawman huh? Have you read the comparisons above?
Thats why i asked you about the message? Have you read?
For your info, i dont use paraphrased versions - they are dangerous....its just their personal interpretations.
Have you read the comparions? If not, why judge me?
DoooooooooooooooooooH!
If you're not a Greek and Hebrew scholar reading the bible in Greek and Hebrew you're wrong anyway. ; )
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/19/2008 11:10:53 AM
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jayvance
Posts: 58
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quote:
PDL might give a new Christian the directive to seek Him, and that would reveal the truth. Let us pray that people can make that distinction. Staying at the level of PDL will not render a mature Christian.
The Purpose Driven Life book isn't intended to be the end-all, be-all of Christian growth and maturity. But if you go on into the 40 Days of Purpose and 40 Days of Community studies, and you continue to pursue worship, fellowship, discipleship, ministry and evangelism, which is the goal of the PDL approach, you WON'T stay at the entry level of the first book.
But please don't hear what I'm not saying. I'm not saying PDL is the ONLY way or the BEST way to grow as a Christian. I don't believe there is ONE best approach to Christian growth that works equally well for everyone. If PDL isn't your thing, no problem. But just because it isn't YOUR thing doesn't mean its not worthwhile, and it certainly doesn't mean it's "false doctrine."
Jay
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/19/2008 11:20:25 AM
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jayvance
Posts: 58
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quote:
The Message translation quoted eliminated the punishment for refusing to believe. This is consistently missing in Warren’s book even though he cites Scriptures that have it or refer to it. Neither the holiness of God and the sinfulness of man are presented, nor explained. These are essential for understanding our sinful state and the need for a savior. Jesus is said to die for your sins, but why? The explanation is avoided, yet the book is written to people who need to know. So how can one really understand the gospel message if the main elements are left out.
Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree on the issue of whether or not PDL provides ample emphasis on punishment. In my opinion, when the Holy Spirit is already drawing a person and already convicting them of their sinful condition, presenting them with the simple gospel of Christ is all that's needed for them to make a conscious decision to surrender to Christ. Furthermore, if you look at the entire spectrum of the PDL paradigm, it's all designed to move believers forward toward Christian growth and maturity. With the growth and maturity will come deeper understanding of all the nuances of Christian theology and doctrine. Who among us can say that we fully understood all the "important" Christian doctrines before we made a decision to follow Christ?
Jay
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/19/2008 2:14:49 PM
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rofaith
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I did the PDL program and eventually led small groups with PDL with the study guides. My view is that the program is not for grounded Christians. Rather it's for what Rick terms, "the unchurched". This is a huge class of persons that will never set foot in an evangelical church because they feel intimidated by the "churchianity" that they perceive rightly or wrongly, in these churches. There's a kind of denial in the Body of Christ in the United States today that we are a "Christian Nation". I think we used to be... but not now. I would venture to say that a full on or about 80+% of the population is biblically illiterate and have no idea who Jesus Christ really is. That is shocking to many people and hard to believe, but IMHO true. Teaching biblical principles that would otherwise be for seasoned, grounded Christians will fall flat with these types of people. They need the "milk" of the Word which is essentially, what PDL is.
PDL actually got me back on track after attending evangelical churches for 20+ years which are not geared up to assist those who are failing in life, but rather IMHO, seem to minister to themselves. They are not safe havens for Christians who struggle with sins that so easily beset them. The "masks" are firmly in place with much denial about sin in their lives. I know this because I participated in this Christian culture in several evangelical churches over the course of 20 years. PDL along with the connected ministries @ Rick's church led me to repentance and discipleship and most importantly serving others as Jesus Christ mandated. IMHO, this is the model shown in the Acts of the Apostles. I suspect that the church earlier that was mentioned that was a seeker church and PDL, did not implement the program properly since the PDL is pretty heavy on becoming intimate with Christ through Bible reading and prayer, becoming part of a small group that promotes these things, and serving others in Christ's name.
I found that in churches that teach the bible, but don't have specific programs for discipleship that teach personal accountability and ministry ownership by members, which Rick Warren advocates, are overcome with a "christianity" culture takes over and everyone carries a bible to church and attends bible studies and amazingly, find pride in doing that all the while touting their bible knowledge instead of while studying the bible, helping the poor, the marginalized, the orphan, the widow etc.
That's just my opinion, probably eventually, God will provide a HUGE correction in some of my thinking. Of course, I am open to that.... <lol, sorry for the heavy editorializing>.
As far as false converts, they are EVERYWHERE, mainline denominations, Baptist, Assembly of God and even in the Berean based fellowships. So, singling out PDL or so called seeker churches as the exclusive home for false converts is a bit spurious... you may not be saying that so sorry in in advance, I just wanted to make sure that was understood.
Anyway, my experience and my Christian friend's experience with PDL has been extremely positive with repentance/discipleship and also with many of them ministering in jails, prisons, in recovery ministries with addicts, the depressed, the angry and hurting, motel ministries to the homeless, the elderly, hospital ministries to the living and the dying etc. So, kind of the opposite of what I hear in this blog... I can't explain the dichotomy except that it's just like what I have learned in the corporate world, it's all about execution. You can have the greatest idea, but if you can't communicate the idea and do it well, it will fail.
Don't get the wrong idea, there are always those like the rich man who walk away, and many others who sit in the congregation with there masks on despite pleas to accept Christ now during the message(s) etc... That happens in every fellowship and church in the world.
I noticed one comment about taking bible verses apart and making points with those separated parts. This is actually practiced by Matthew in the Gospel where he wrote that "out of Egypt he called him". When in fact the prophet Hosea is talking about the nation of Israel, but rather the Holy Spirit used this scripture to speak of Joseph, Mary and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ returning from Egypt after avoiding the massacre in Judea, which BTW was also inspired by the Holy Spirit. This bothered me as first to, but as I matured in my own walk, I found that every word, sentence, paragraph and chapter, even the punctuation means something in the Word of God. It's multifaceted and God has a way of saying things in context as well as out of context. I know that goes against much seminary teaching, but IMHO, don't put God in a box. If a scripture is taken out of context, study other parts of the bible to insure the accuracy of that out of context precept. In Matthew and Hosea it works.... it doesn't always work and takes some bible study to understand this idea.
So, the net-net is don't put down PDL because it does this.... it's a good practice as long as it's practiced in such a way that the truth is expressed like it was in Matthew. I don't see the separate pieces of scripture stated in PDL promoting anything that would otherwise be untrue.
I don't have a problem with different translations although it's a stretch for me with "The Message". If God can use it to bring one person to Christ, than the "The Message" was worth it....
As a final note, the seeker church term is kind of overused and become kind of a cliche' and catchall for churches people either don't like or consider heretical... I agree with the problems with seeker churches and the seeming lack of biblical teaching. Willow Creek has learned their lesson and making changes.... What I can say for the church mentioned here in this blog, is possibly, now they can come out of denial regarding this and round out their ministries to include biblical studies that promote Jesus Christ for who He really is, serving Him and serving others in His Name....
_____________________________
There is no other name....
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/19/2008 2:32:01 PM
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WesP
Posts: 2363
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quote:
I noticed one comment about taking bible verses apart and making points with those separated parts. This is actually practiced by Matthew in the Gospel where he wrote that "out of Egypt he called him". When in fact the prophet Hosea is talking about the nation of Israel, but rather the Holy Spirit used this scripture to speak of Joseph, Mary and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ returning from Egypt after avoiding the massacre in Judea, which BTW was also inspired by the Holy Spirit. This bothered me as first to, but as I matured in my own walk, I found that every word, sentence, paragraph and chapter, even the punctuation means something in the Word of God. It's multifaceted and God has a way of saying things in context as well as out of context.
With all due respect, God's word never contradicts itself. Warren's word contradicts God's in several instances.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/19/2008 2:32:43 PM
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jayvance
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Excellent post, rofaith, very well stated.
Jay
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/19/2008 2:35:15 PM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
I noticed one comment about taking bible verses apart and making points with those separated parts. This is actually practiced by Matthew in the Gospel where he wrote that "out of Egypt he called him". When in fact the prophet Hosea is talking about the nation of Israel, but rather the Holy Spirit used this scripture to speak of Joseph, Mary and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ returning from Egypt after avoiding the massacre in Judea, which BTW was also inspired by the Holy Spirit. This bothered me as first to, but as I matured in my own walk, I found that every word, sentence, paragraph and chapter, even the punctuation means something in the Word of God. It's multifaceted and God has a way of saying things in context as well as out of context.
With all due respect, God's word never contradicts itself. Warren's word contradicts God's in several instances.
If we were to protest everyone whose word contradicts God's "in several instances" the list of protested teachers would be very long indeed. In fact the list of teachers not protested would be empty. Your point is?
_____________________________
May all of your troubles last no longer than your New Year's Resolutions!
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/19/2008 2:48:32 PM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
If we were to protest everyone whose word contradicts God's "in several instances" the list of protested teachers would be very long indeed. In fact the list of teachers not protested would be empty. Your point is?
If you will go back and read my posts, you will see that I have explained both sides. PDL can serve a purpose, but it is milk, not meat. That was the basic premise that I have stated.
I have read your posts, and I agree most of the time with what you say.
I was just making sure of what I read.
_____________________________
May all of your troubles last no longer than your New Year's Resolutions!
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/19/2008 3:23:30 PM
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Soxfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
PDL can serve a purpose, but it is milk, not meat. That was the basic premise that I have stated.
Spoiled "milk"
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/19/2008 6:56:15 PM
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rofaith
Posts: 80
Joined: 1/17/2008
From: rofaith, a believer
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
I noticed one comment about taking bible verses apart and making points with those separated parts. This is actually practiced by Matthew in the Gospel where he wrote that "out of Egypt he called him". When in fact the prophet Hosea is talking about the nation of Israel, but rather the Holy Spirit used this scripture to speak of Joseph, Mary and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ returning from Egypt after avoiding the massacre in Judea, which BTW was also inspired by the Holy Spirit. This bothered me as first to, but as I matured in my own walk, I found that every word, sentence, paragraph and chapter, even the punctuation means something in the Word of God. It's multifaceted and God has a way of saying things in context as well as out of context.
With all due respect, God's word never contradicts itself. Warren's word contradicts God's in several instances.
quote:
With all due respect, God's word never contradicts itself. Warren's word contradicts God's in several instances.
... on God's Word being totally consistent, we completely agree. On whether Dr. Warren's book contradicts God's Word in some places, no doubt probably true. On whether their are Godly publications that are published that are pristine and have no inconsistencies with God's Word, do we agree ? We may or may not agree. Is Dr. Warren a "false teacher" because PDL doesn't agree with your interpretation of what is a contradiction ? IMHO, no. Are his writings, as both of you quipped, "spoiled milk"? No IMHO. They are written to edify those in the Body of Christ that are weak and have little knowledge of God's Word.
There are a lot of critics that say what things aren't and are quick to criticize another brother in Christ, in public. Blogs make that all too easy allowing our tongue to become sharp and destructive to others in the Body of Christ... and it's sinful. The bible states clearly how to disagree and it's character building, not character assassinating ... are their any Christians who have the character to forbear another Christian they disagree with, in order to have fellowship as stated in the latter part of the chapters of Romans? <BTW, my favorite book too, along with Hebrews, they are both incredible books & as we both know, you got to know your OT to get what they express..>
The net-net is, IMHO a well as Dr. Warren's, character matters more because it's an expression of love that fulfills the law, while perfect interpretation of the scriptures in English, Hebrew and Greek don't matter <as much>. We can talk Herneneutics and Theological purity all day long and it won't matter in the end(1 Cor 13). What will matter, is what did we do for the sake of love in Christ's name. That includes how we respond to someone we disagree with.
Setting ourselves up as the end-all of scriptural interpretation and criticizing another brother in Christ in public is tantamount to open gossip and is an issue for everyone in the Body of Christ. I sometimes grit my teeth, I sometimes fail and rant on a Blog and follow up with repentance and sometimes I forbear and love the person while correcting them in love with gentleness in Christ, privately via EMail or via a written letter. IMHO, the latter is the expression of Christ to the world that makes the difference.
Christians and non-Christians see and sometimes experience meanness, gotcha's and people being ugly at each other all day long, everyday. Will they see a difference in us? Can broken sinful Christian people like myself and others, exist in a broken sinful world and disagree in peace and place love above their intellectual prowess and understanding of the scriptures ?
It's up to me to do my part to promote peace with righteousness within the Body of Christ as much as I can. ... It's also up to members of the Body of Christ to do the same.... Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was full of grace AND truth..... the idea being, one w/o the other was destructive and harmful and indeed, heresy...
Peace as well...
_____________________________
There is no other name....
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/19/2008 7:00:03 PM
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armydude
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From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
PDL can serve a purpose, but it is milk, not meat. That was the basic premise that I have stated.
Spoiled "milk"
What is your meaning when you say "spoiled"? What exactly is your beef with a book that discusses how a Christian can find his/her purpose instead of being what an old sergeant buddy of mine used to call "OTF" or "out there flapping"?
_____________________________
May all of your troubles last no longer than your New Year's Resolutions!
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/19/2008 8:22:39 PM
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prophet
Posts: 691
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jayvance
Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree on the issue of whether or not PDL provides ample emphasis on punishment. In my opinion, when the Holy Spirit is already drawing a person and already convicting them of their sinful condition, presenting them with the simple gospel of Christ is all that's needed for them to make a conscious decision to surrender to Christ. Furthermore, if you look at the entire spectrum of the PDL paradigm, it's all designed to move believers forward toward Christian growth and maturity. With the growth and maturity will come deeper understanding of all the nuances of Christian theology and doctrine. Who among us can say that we fully understood all the "important" Christian doctrines before we made a decision to follow Christ?
Jay
Jay
i think its more than that. As with all seeker friendly couses, it seeks to draw mankind into a friendly atmoshere of christian living. So, the gospel is diluted inthat, it leaves out the sin/holiness aspects which more oft turns the general public off. This is an imporatnt doctrine to set the scene. Without this, how can the Holy Spirit convict?
what disciple can you create without the realisation of this fundamental aspect of the Truth of Jesus?
The foundation that one sets has more chance of creating the true disciple. Bad roots bring forth bad fruits....
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/19/2008 8:24:56 PM
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TrustingGod
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Thank you for the examples.
I found this on www.ibs.org (international bible society) regarding the New Living Translation version. Earlier, it was stated that this was a paraphase:
"Most significantly, the New Living Translation is not a paraphrase but a translation. Every verse has been carefully compared to the most reliable editions of the Hebrew and Greek texts in an effort to make a translation that accurately conveys the meaning of the original texts"
I use the NLT and was curious when you said it was a paraphrase because I knew I'd read it was translation.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/19/2008 11:35:48 PM
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rofaith
Posts: 80
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From: rofaith, a believer
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In PDL, the "It's not about you" was to address the selfish, self-centered view of themselves that people often have. In the "It's all about you" quote, it's about how God feels about all mankind. Backed by John 3:16-17. . . one can always find contradiction... the challenge is to find out if the contradiction is legitimate or not when taken in the context it was given.....
_____________________________
There is no other name....
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/19/2008 11:57:57 PM
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rofaith
Posts: 80
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From: rofaith, a believer
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IMHO, an invitation into God's Kingdom always comes legitimately when one realizes God's grace and love. Using the bible as a hammer rather than a point of inspiration creates shallow, legalistic Christians.
In my experience, people come to Christ through Inspiration or Desperation. They come via Inspiration when they are open enough to seeing their own sinfulness in the mirror of God's Word, and God's demonstrating His holiness in the form of accepting them as they are, in spite of their sinfulness. When people come in Desperation they are exposed to God's lovingkindness and they find themselves accepting God at face value and are inspired by the idea that God has intervened in their lives despite their sinfulness.
Either way works... in both cases, teaching of the Word of God in order to shore up faith is necessary. The inspired has to overcome shame, regret and remorse by learning of God's lovingkindness/acceptance and thus exercise faith in God's Word and in God that they are part of the Kingdom of God and His family. While the desperate needs to learn that their desperateness was caused by their own sin and disobedience and the Word of God reveals that God intervened in their lives despite this. They in turn, overcome their sin and disobedience by trusting in God and His Word to shore up their faith since it did not come through inspiration in God's Word but by God's unilateral intervention. (this happened to me...and others I know)
My thinking is that we live in a culture today that has no conscience with respect to God's ways and does not respect God's Word.<probably not really a new phenomenon> To them, sin is what it is, basically serving themselves. As always, sin results in destruction.... that's when they become desperate.... PDL was written for the desperate.... it inspires some too, but to me, what you call "God's atmosphere of friendliness" is scriptural. i.e. "And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God." James 2:23
The key element here is after someone comes to Christ via the milk of the Word in PDL whether by Inspiration or Desperation, they must continue in solid biblical teaching to shore up their faith. i.e. "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." Dr. Warren does this @ his church.
My thinking is that we as Christians, have to be more open... God brings people to His Son in any way possible, because He can and does.
_____________________________
There is no other name....
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/20/2008 7:18:58 AM
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jayvance
Posts: 58
Joined: 3/23/2007
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quote:
So, the gospel is diluted in that, it leaves out the sin/holiness aspects which more oft turns the general public off. This is an imporatnt doctrine to set the scene. Without this, how can the Holy Spirit convict? What disciple can you create without the realisation of this fundamental aspect of the Truth of Jesus?
Again, we must agreeably disagree. I believe it is the Holy Spirit who "sets the scene," not the preacher. In my own personal experience and observation over 30+ years of ministry, the folks who make a quick decision to accept Christ based on a sermon about sin and punishment are MUCH less likely to follow through than those whose path to conversion is prompted by an ongoing hunger in their hearts for something more than the self-centered life they've been living. Furthermore, I have found that it is God's love which leads to my holiness, not the other way around.
In any case, as I said previously, you and I will simply have to disagree on the issue of whether or not | | |
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