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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/15/2008 9:01:25 PM
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prophet
Posts: 579
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If the quality of book PDL is any indication of the teachings that would be meted out to the babes, they would be in serious problems as 'disciples' 
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/15/2008 9:09:16 PM
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jayvance
Posts: 58
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quote:
People that "come to Christ" because they believe their life will be enhanced in some way.... their professions of faith were not based on an understanding of their desperate situation before a Just God and a need for repentance...
I don't think the two are mutually exclusive, to be honest. I don't think salvation is limited only to those who have no expectation whatsoever that their lives will be better as a Christian. Jesus said, "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." Sounds pretty good to me...
quote:
...they have never truly been saved.
Gosh, I sure wouldn't want to put myself in the position of making that judgment call. Furthermore, I wonder how many conditions we ought to place on how exact someone's theology has to be before their profession of faith is valid. I hear where you're coming from, but I don't think we should go too far to the OTHER extreme either.
Jay
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/15/2008 9:11:03 PM
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armydude
Posts: 16900
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Neeva_Candida
I think that one of the keys is in the subject line of the OP..."False Converts".
PDL or not. The modern, seeker-sensitive church is producing a lot of false converts. People that "come to Christ" because they believe their life will be enhanced in some way. They hope to find peace, love and happiness. Since their professions of faith were not based on an understanding of their desperate situation before a Just God and a need for repentance they have never truly been saved. Therefore it does not matter how long they have followed the "program"...they are not likely to have a correct, doctrinally-sound belief system.
~Neeva
FINALLY! A statement I can get behind!
_____________________________
No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/15/2008 10:27:49 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
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From: Raleigh, NC
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One of the things I tell the women who come to our studies is they have to desire healing and wholeness more than they desire release. I tell them the teachings of scripture is what will provide what they really need.
The bible we give them - the "Free on the Inside Bible" - does a great job on explaining what it means to be a disciple of Christ. God has given us an open door in that we have a chance to place a bible in the hands of every woman who will do time in a NC prison.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/16/2008 2:17:35 PM
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BlackCapnHarlock
Posts: 365
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
Granger Community Church, one of the premiere Purpose-Driven churches and the 6th most influential church in America just announced the results of their Reveal Study. The results are SHOCKING but not surprising because many Bereans have been warning for years that the seeker-sensitive / purpose-driven model was creating false converts and now there is hard statistical data that backs up this claim.
Granger’s own qualitative study revealed that:
47% of those attending Granger DO NOT believe in salvation by grace.
57% of those attending Granger DO NOT believe in the authority of the Bible.
56% of those attending Granger DO NOT believe Jesus is the only way to eternal life.
Anyone still think that the "Christianity-lite" theology of Warren, Hybels, Schuller, and Osteen is a good thing?
It isn't, it is pure garbage. We are doing nothing but pushing the gospel further and further back behind self.
_____________________________
Ezekiel 16:6 Eze 16:6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/16/2008 11:40:16 PM
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Rick4Him
Posts: 102
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Neeva,
You made a great reply to this post. True Godly sorrow through repentence and submission to Christ is what is missing in most of these mega PDL churches. They are similar to the prosperity preaching churches that claim Christianity is all about you, when it is actually all about Him.
You will be scortched for your statement in this forum, but I take the hostile replies as joy for standing for the truth which many today like to say is relavent. I'll trust in Jude's words when he stated "men will creep in unnoticed." Although Rick Warren isn't unnoticed, his gospel is for it is deception. Anyone who has the book, just read the scripture references and how he cuts them up and uses 2 or 3 partial verses together out of context and from different translations to make his point. He loves to quote the Message which is a very liberal paraphrase.
I agree with Soxfan in that Warren is an enemy to conservative fundamental Christianity. Most of what Warren says is good and I believe he's probably about 90% correct in his doctrinal stances, it's the other 10% that worry me. It would be like saying a person is 90% saved, which means they are 100% lost.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/16/2008 11:57:58 PM
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Rick4Him
Posts: 102
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Didn't Saddleback hold a faith forum tonight with Obama and McCain answering questions about their faith? Did anyone see it?
Rick
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/17/2008 7:23:15 AM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rick4Him
Didn't Saddleback hold a faith forum tonight with Obama and McCain answering questions about their faith? Did anyone see it?
Rick
Yep...great format...not a debate but an interview! See the Election 2008 portion of the Current Events folder for an discussion.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/17/2008 3:54:35 PM
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Neeva_Candida
Posts: 119
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rick4Him
Didn't Saddleback hold a faith forum tonight with Obama and McCain answering questions about their faith? Did anyone see it?
Rick
Yes. McCain said he was ProLife. Obama tried to evade the issue but ultimately admitted to being ProChoice.
However, I'm not sure that either can be trusted. :)
~Neeva
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/18/2008 10:47:26 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
For anyone that is interested: HERE
Earthless, with all due respect, I cannot believe you have read the book. If you have, then it is beyond me how you could still be under the impression that PDL is heretical in any sense or promotes a me-first agenda. In all honesty, the foremost message that I got from the book is, if I remember, in the first chapter: "It's NOT about ME." That premise holds true for the remainder of the book.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/18/2008 3:49:19 PM
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Neeva_Candida
Posts: 119
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
For anyone that is interested: HERE
Earthless, with all due respect, I cannot believe you have read the book. If you have, then it is beyond me how you could still be under the impression that PDL is heretical in any sense or promotes a me-first agenda. In all honesty, the foremost message that I got from the book is, if I remember, in the first chapter: "It's NOT about ME." That premise holds true for the remainder of the book.
Actually, its the first sentence.
Which was kind of funny when a few years later he wrote an article for a woman's magazine in which he said "It's all about you".
~Neeva
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/18/2008 7:26:23 PM
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TrustingGod
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I've read many references to the claims that PDL is full of scripture out of context yet I haven't seen any examples. How about giving us some examples (citing chapter and paragraph so we can pull our books out and see it too).
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/18/2008 8:32:26 PM
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prophet
Posts: 579
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TrustingGod
I've read many references to the claims that PDL is full of scripture out of context yet I haven't seen any examples. How about giving us some examples (citing chapter and paragraph so we can pull our books out and see it too).
The Purpose-Driven Life, cites over 1,000 verses of Scripture with an excessive use of paraphrases, and some that are extremely liberal in their writings. New Living Translation, the Message (in the majority, quoted over 90 times in his book), Living Bible, New Century Version, and the NIV which is accepted as a good paraphrase (and probably superior to the other paraphrases) in fact the literal translations of the KJV, NKJV and NASB were rarely used. While the intent may be to be helpful in bringing the meaning to our modern culture, many times they can hinder the meaning. Out of hundreds of verses quoted you can count the literal translations used on 2 hands, near one percent.
NKJV John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.”
The Message: John 10:30 I and the Father are one heart and mind.”
NKJV John 14:28”...The Father is greater than I.”
The Message: “The Father is the goal and purpose of my life.”
The Message Rom. 8:9 “But God himself has taken up residence in your life, you can hardly bethinking more of yourselves than of him.”
NKJ Rom. 8:9 “But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.”
The word for flesh is sarx in Greek, the very point Paul is writing about is the new nature vs. the old, to check that you possess the Holy Spirit. The Message translation completely distorts the meaning. Neither the Spirit n or the flesh mentioned in the Message.
NKJV Romans 1:26-27: “Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.”
The Message: “Worse followed. Refusing to know God, they soon didn't know how to be human either - women didn't know how to be women, men didn't know how to be men. Sexually confused, they abused and defiled one another, women with women, men with men - all lust, no love. And then they paid for it, oh, how they paid for it - emptied of God and love, Godless and loveless wretcheds.”
He inserts the word no love and loveless changing the meaning of sexual immorality the lack of love, not lust driving them to cross the human barriers of same sex partners becomes the sin,
KJV Romans 8:35-37: “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?”
The Message: “Do you think anyone is going to be able to drive a wedge between us and Christ's love for us? There is no way! Not trouble, not hard times, not hatred, not hunger, not homelessness, not bullying threats, not backstabbing, not even the worst sins listed in Scripture:”
This promotes the idea that one can do whatever they want after they are saved and be loved by God. Yet God says specifically that we are not to “even to eat with such a person”(1 Cor 5:11), “put away from yourselves the evil person.”(1 Cor 5:13).
1 Cor. 6:9-10 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.” Rev. 21:8 “These people will “have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone”
http://www.letusreason.org/bookr12.htm
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/18/2008 8:33:20 PM
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armydude
Posts: 16900
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From: NC
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So your big beef with PDL is the translations it uses?
Oooooooooooooooooooook.
_____________________________
No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/18/2008 8:39:26 PM
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prophet
Posts: 579
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If you use all sorts of translations to suit your arguements, what does it say about you?
Whats Oooooooooooooooooooook?
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/18/2008 8:40:32 PM
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prophet
Posts: 579
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BTW do you accept the translations of the message?
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/18/2008 8:48:38 PM
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armydude
Posts: 16900
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
If you use all sorts of translations to suit your arguements, what does it say about you?
Whats Oooooooooooooooooooook?
If there's a verse I'm having trouble understanding in a certain translation, I check out other ones as part of my quest to understand it.
If you're not willing to see that other translations could be used, what does that say about you?
(That last part was said just so you could understand the insanity of that question. If you want to debate translations, that's a different subject.)
And the Oooooooooooooooooooook is because it seems like people are really reaching for ways to discredit a book. All it takes is not reading it. There's no need for what looks to me like a strawman.
_____________________________
No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/18/2008 8:50:32 PM
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armydude
Posts: 16900
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From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
BTW do you accept the translations of the message?
They get the point across and they sometimes get me to look at God's word a little differently. I can see why it helps.
_____________________________
No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/18/2008 8:55:21 PM
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prophet
Posts: 579
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: online
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Strawman huh? Have you read the comparisons above?
Thats why i asked you about the message? Have you read?
For your info, i dont use paraphrased versions - they are dangerous....its just their personal interpretations.
Have you read the comparions? If not, why judge me?
DoooooooooooooooooooH!
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/18/2008 8:57:54 PM
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prophet
Posts: 579
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
BTW do you accept the translations of the message?
They get the point across and they sometimes get me to look at God's word a little differently. I can see why it helps.
Whose points? Their points or Gods points?
quote:
NKJV John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.”
The Message: John 10:30 I and the Father are one heart and mind.”
NKJV John 14:28”...The Father is greater than I.”
The Message: “The Father is the goal and purpose of my life.”
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/18/2008 9:01:48 PM
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armydude
Posts: 16900
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
BTW do you accept the translations of the message?
They get the point across and they sometimes get me to look at God's word a little differently. I can see why it helps.
Whose points? Their points or Gods points?
So are you saying that when someone uses a translation you don't like, they're not using God's word?
Isn't there a thread already running on this?
_____________________________
No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/18/2008 9:07:31 PM
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prophet
Posts: 579
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
BTW do you accept the translations of the message?
They get the point across and they sometimes get me to look at God's word a little differently. I can see why it helps.
Whose points? Their points or Gods points?
So are you saying that when someone uses a translation you don't like, they're not using God's word?
Isn't there a thread already running on this?
its not I dont like.
Look at the paraphrasing of the original trnalations.
These are not even translations....they are just paraphrasing. i could do that!
The point here is PDL uses paraphrased versions for their 'purposes"
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/18/2008 11:19:45 PM
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jayvance
Posts: 58
Joined: 3/23/2007
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quote:
The Purpose-Driven Life, cites over 1,000 verses of Scripture with an excessive use of paraphrases, and some that are extremely liberal in their writings. New Living Translation, the Message (in the majority, quoted over 90 times in his book), Living Bible, New Century Version, and the NIV which is accepted as a good paraphrase (and probably superior to the other paraphrases) in fact the literal translations of the KJV, NKJV and NASB were rarely used. While the intent may be to be helpful in bringing the meaning to our modern culture, many times they can hinder the meaning. Out of hundreds of verses quoted you can count the literal translations used on 2 hands, near one percent.
I'm already on record as saying that I HATE "The Message" translation and it bugs me that Rick Warren uses it a lot in The Purpose Driven Life book. But that's not the same as saying that the book promotes "false doctrine" or creates "false converts." The question is, does the book itself contain core doctrinal teachings that are demonstrably false?
Fact is, there are no doubt MANY books on the market which use only KJV, or only NIV, or only NKJV, or any other translation you want to focus on, and yet the teachings in those books are demonstrably false--not because of what version of the Bible the author quotes, but because of how the author interprets/manipulates/distorts the meaning of the Bible.
So the question on the table remains, what specific examples of false core doctrinal teachings are in The Purpose Driven Life book? Believe me, if there are some, I sincerely want to know about them.
Jay
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