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RE: Troops Deployed Abroad Give more money to Obama - 8/15/2008 11:28:02 AM
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huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
you sure post a lot, what do you do for a living???
You sure ask a lot of personal questions.
dually noted...
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
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RE: Troops Deployed Abroad Give more money to Obama - 8/15/2008 11:44:02 AM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
you sure post a lot, what do you do for a living???
You sure ask a lot of personal questions.
dually noted...
what's a swedishcovenant anyway??? what is your favorite color??? i need to know!!! 
j/k
i am just surprised how you are able to devote so much time...
Since a hint didn't work, one must update the stakes.
None of your business.
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RE: Troops Deployed Abroad Give more money to Obama - 8/15/2008 12:11:51 PM
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huangshan
Posts: 766
Joined: 8/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
The history of the three biggest wars of the past 150 years would say otherwise:
American Civil War - the South's largest trading partner, the North. The North's largest trading partner - the South.
First World War - Germany's largest trading partner - France. Second - Russia.
Second World War - ditto, plus Japan's largest trading partner - China, and second largest - United States.
One could almost make the case that strong economic ties make war MORE likely rather than less.
Much depends upon the attitude of the trading states. If one or both (or all) of them decide that it is easier to simply TAKE rather than TRADE - as Japan did in China, and Germany in Russia - it becomes more likely that they will initiate a war.
Things change. I don't think it's hyperbolic to suggest that institutions like the European Union make war between France and Germany about as likely as war between, say, Michigan and Ohio.
The ways rich nations wage war has also drastically changed. Previously, if a nation wanted treasures, resources, women, land, whatever, war was an effective means to acquire them. The ways wars are fought now, and I speak of both technology and tactics, makes them incredibly destructive, such that it's very difficult to not destroy that which is desired, or to create a situation where extraction becomes prohibitively expensive.
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RE: Troops Deployed Abroad Give more money to Obama - 8/15/2008 12:20:52 PM
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huangshan
Posts: 766
Joined: 8/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
quote:
I find it regretable that you would consider the use of the American military to further American economic interests - that is a page right out of the neocons' playbook
I know Swede is ignoring me (or so he says), but just some free advice.....the use of the word "neocon" virtually guarantees that nobody will ever take any of your positions that seriously....it ranks right up their with comparing someone to Hitler or the Nazis....
That seems strange. Neocons actually exist. They even self-identify (as in, "you're a liberal you say? pleased to meet you, I'm a neocon") with the term. Should we pretend an influential ideology does not exist?
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Neoconservatism is the notion that we should have a small military that does everything. It's the exact opposite of the ideology that kept us relatively peaceful during the Cold War.
I don't think that's true. Rumsfeld's notion was that we could have a small military that did everything. He was not a neoconservative, but nis military was used to pursue a neoconservative foreign policy with accordingly disastrous results.
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RE: Troops Deployed Abroad Give more money to Obama - 8/15/2008 12:22:10 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
The history of the three biggest wars of the past 150 years would say otherwise:
American Civil War - the South's largest trading partner, the North. The North's largest trading partner - the South.
First World War - Germany's largest trading partner - France. Second - Russia.
Second World War - ditto, plus Japan's largest trading partner - China, and second largest - United States.
One could almost make the case that strong economic ties make war MORE likely rather than less.
Much depends upon the attitude of the trading states. If one or both (or all) of them decide that it is easier to simply TAKE rather than TRADE - as Japan did in China, and Germany in Russia - it becomes more likely that they will initiate a war.
Things change. I don't think it's hyperbolic to suggest that institutions like the European Union make war between France and Germany about as likely as war between, say, Michigan and Ohio.
The ways rich nations wage war has also drastically changed. Previously, if a nation wanted treasures, resources, women, land, whatever, war was an effective means to acquire them. The ways wars are fought now, and I speak of both technology and tactics, makes them incredibly destructive, such that it's very difficult to not destroy that which is desired, or to create a situation where extraction becomes prohibitively expensive.
Yep, we're beginning to get there. Still a long way to go.
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RE: Troops Deployed Abroad Give more money to Obama - 8/15/2008 12:42:06 PM
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huangshan
Posts: 766
Joined: 8/6/2008
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History is a gradual process with many starts and stops, but barring a global catastrophe, I think the future looks to be less threatened by wars (as the world gets richer) and more threatened by terrorism. And as the world gets richer, that terrorism will be less like the organized Tamil Tigers and Al Qaida and more like individual incidents like Tim McVeigh and the occasional serial killer or bus stabber.
A lot could go wrong, but that's my general prediction. I think the biggest danger is continued overreaction to terrorism and xenophobia deepening rifts between neighbors and making problems for immigrants trying to fit in.
But wow am I off topic.
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RE: Troops Deployed Abroad Give more money to Obama - 8/15/2008 1:10:26 PM
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huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
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yeah...i am surprised swedey hasn't yelled at you about going off topic, of course the same is said about myself...hmm...just razzing...
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
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RE: Troops Deployed Abroad Give more money to Obama - 8/15/2008 2:09:46 PM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 554
Joined: 1/18/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
yeah...believe me, most of them enlisted for the college money, not to serve...
so in a sense, they don't want to follow their leaders and be in a combat zone....
(coming from a former marine only 3 months removed)
US military personnel have made a major shift in their donations, in favor of the Democratic Party, since 2002, when military donations favored the GOP by almost 5:1. Now, in '08, those donations favor the GOP only 3:2. That's a huge shift.
Following your logic, in 2002 most soldiers thought our leaders wouldn't get them into a combat zone.
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RE: Troops Deployed Abroad Give more money to Obama - 8/15/2008 2:12:56 PM
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huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
yeah...believe me, most of them enlisted for the college money, not to serve...
so in a sense, they don't want to follow their leaders and be in a combat zone....
(coming from a former marine only 3 months removed)
US military personnel have made a major shift in their donations, in favor of the Democratic Party, since 2002, when military donations favored the GOP by almost 5:1. Now, in '08, those donations favor the GOP only 3:2. That's a huge shift.
Following your logic, in 2002 most soldiers thought our leaders wouldn't get them into a combat zone.
most soldiers thought, myself included, thought OIF and OEF would be as tenuous as the gulf war...
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
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RE: Troops Deployed Abroad Give more money to Obama - 8/15/2008 3:10:53 PM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 554
Joined: 1/18/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
yeah...believe me, most of them enlisted for the college money, not to serve...
so in a sense, they don't want to follow their leaders and be in a combat zone....
(coming from a former marine only 3 months removed)
US military personnel have made a major shift in their donations, in favor of the Democratic Party, since 2002, when military donations favored the GOP by almost 5:1. Now, in '08, those donations favor the GOP only 3:2. That's a huge shift.
Following your logic, in 2002 most soldiers thought our leaders wouldn't get them into a combat zone.
most soldiers thought, myself included, thought OIF and OEF would be as tenuous as the gulf war...
Fair enough.
I'd just like to make the distinction between no longer trusting their leaders and an unwillingness to follow them.
While I was in the Army, we no longer trusted Carter due to Desert One, we overwhelmingly loved Reagan. When the 2/75 Rangers came back from Grenada all of 9th Infantry had a strong pride of serving, we weren't thinking about college.
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RE: Troops Deployed Abroad Give more money to Obama - 8/15/2008 3:33:23 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
yeah...believe me, most of them enlisted for the college money, not to serve...
so in a sense, they don't want to follow their leaders and be in a combat zone....
(coming from a former marine only 3 months removed)
US military personnel have made a major shift in their donations, in favor of the Democratic Party, since 2002, when military donations favored the GOP by almost 5:1. Now, in '08, those donations favor the GOP only 3:2. That's a huge shift.
Following your logic, in 2002 most soldiers thought our leaders wouldn't get them into a combat zone.
most soldiers thought, myself included, thought OIF and OEF would be as tenuous as the gulf war...
Fair enough.
I'd just like to make the distinction between no longer trusting their leaders and an unwillingness to follow them.
While I was in the Army, we no longer trusted Carter due to Desert One, we overwhelmingly loved Reagan. When the 2/75 Rangers came back from Grenada all of 9th Infantry had a strong pride of serving, we weren't thinking about college.
Just for the sake of asking, did the Beirut fiasco have any affect either way?
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RE: Troops Deployed Abroad Give more money to Obama - 8/15/2008 4:09:05 PM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 554
Joined: 1/18/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
Just for the sake of asking, did the Beirut fiasco have any affect either way?
I understand your point, but at the time we treated it as a tragedy, and with shock; Sort of the military's 9/11 if you will.
I would imagine the Marines felt it more deeply, but for us in the states (9th Infantry is outside of Tacoma Washington) we were glad to hear about the USS New Jersey taking it's revenge. Back in '83 we were not encouraged to linger on thoughts of revenge, but be prepared for our mission of Rapid Deployment.
I don't recall any blame being put on Reagan, it was treated as a cowardly attack by people without honor.
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RE: Troops Deployed Abroad Give more money to Obama - 8/15/2008 4:33:32 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
Just for the sake of asking, did the Beirut fiasco have any affect either way?
I understand your point, but at the time we treated it as a tragedy, and with shock; Sort of the military's 9/11 if you will.
I would imagine the Marines felt it more deeply, but for us in the states (9th Infantry is outside of Tacoma Washington) we were glad to hear about the USS New Jersey taking it's revenge. Back in '83 we were not encouraged to linger on thoughts of revenge, but be prepared for our mission of Rapid Deployment.
I don't recall any blame being put on Reagan, it was treated as a cowardly attack by people without honor.
So let me see if I understand your logic.
You "no longer trusted Carter because of Desert One", in effect blaming the deaths in Desert One on the CIC, holding him responsible for the results of an ill-thought-out operation, while at the same time...
...you "don't recall any blame being put on Reagan", in effect blaming the natives for the deaths in Beirut and absolving the CIC for an ill-thought-out operation.
Is that about right?
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RE: Troops Deployed Abroad Give more money to Obama - 8/15/2008 5:23:17 PM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 554
Joined: 1/18/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
Just for the sake of asking, did the Beirut fiasco have any affect either way?
I understand your point, but at the time we treated it as a tragedy, and with shock; Sort of the military's 9/11 if you will.
I would imagine the Marines felt it more deeply, but for us in the states (9th Infantry is outside of Tacoma Washington) we were glad to hear about the USS New Jersey taking it's revenge. Back in '83 we were not encouraged to linger on thoughts of revenge, but be prepared for our mission of Rapid Deployment.
I don't recall any blame being put on Reagan, it was treated as a cowardly attack by people without honor.
So let me see if I understand your logic.
You "no longer trusted Carter because of Desert One", in effect blaming the deaths in Desert One on the CIC, holding him responsible for the results of an ill-thought-out operation, while at the same time...
...you "don't recall any blame being put on Reagan", in effect blaming the natives for the deaths in Beirut and absolving the CIC for an ill-thought-out operation.
Is that about right?
Other than your phrase "in effect blaming the natives",
Yep
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Beirut_barracks_bombing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Jihad_Organization
Let me ask you one - Why would you consider a terrorist organization supported mostly by another country native?
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RE: Troops Deployed Abroad Give more money to Obama - 8/15/2008 8:16:19 PM
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saved9201
Posts: 712
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
yeah...believe me, most of them enlisted for the college money, not to serve...
so in a sense, they don't want to follow their leaders and be in a combat zone....
(coming from a former marine only 3 months removed)
Most?
I don't want to get into a "you know what" (rhymes with "missing") contest with you, cause I get the feeling you'd win convincingly.
But, I'll just say this.
Lot easier ways to get college money. Besides, a lot of guys, especially those with combat arms specialties, enlisted because they weren't college material.
By the way, I'm a 23 year Army vet myself and my son just got back from a tour of Iraq. That being said, I have another theory as to why troops overseas have given more to B. Hussein O.. One that, if people weren't so blindly, unashamably biased against him and those who dare support him, would be obvious.
Where do you think troops overseas and troops in general get most of their information about what's going on in the rest of the world, including this election? The internet. In fact, servicemembers overseas in some cases communicate with their families almost exclusively through the internet. This year, they will be allowed to vote over the net. Now, which campaign has been applauded (by everyone except folks on CW, that is) for the way it's used the internet to solicit contributions?
The B. Hussein O. camp.
So basically, since our troops probably don't get to listen to Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh three hours a day, they probably are unaware how evil, wicked, mean and nasty B. Hussein O. is. They've probably seen REAL radical Muslim terrorists and maybe to them, B. Hussein O. dosen't look too convincing as one. Those troops who may want to go to college after they serve, maybe they read the Army Times article (hardcopy or online) and found out that McCain voted against the new G.I. Bill that B. Hussein O. supported. Meanwhile, the B. Hussein O. folks have actively been after their vote and contributions - even small ones - through the net.
Maybe if the McCain camp would take notes instead of making fun of everything B. Hussein O. does and then complaining afterwards if the results are positive, he could learn something.
- Julius
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RE: Troops Deployed Abroad Give more money to Obama - 8/15/2008 8:29:50 PM
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wing2000
Posts: 1029
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
So basically, since our troops probably don't get to listen to Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh three hours a day, they probably are unaware how evil, wicked, mean and nasty B. Hussein O. is. They've probably seen REAL radical Muslim terrorists and maybe to them, B. Hussein O. dosen't look too convincing as one. Those troops who may want to go to college after they serve, maybe they read the Army Times article (hardcopy or online) and found out that McCain voted against the new G.I. Bill that B. Hussein O. supported. Meanwhile, the B. Hussein O. folks have actively been after their vote and contributions - even small ones - through the net.
...and it might have something to do with multiple tours of combat duty, stop loss and an administration that refused to increase the size of the military to support it's foreign policy objectives. You can't fool the military...and it doesn't surprise me they are voting the for the opposition (with their dollars). This Republican administration, through it's misguided foreign policy, has done more to weaken our military than any administration since the Viet Nam war.
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