IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... (Full Version)

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bettymackII -> IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... (8/14/2008 6:24:58 PM)

please give the verse.

This was a topic that I had used before and one of the poster (Bob97)
had a better wording of it and would like to try this again if it is okay?



dandebm1 -> RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... (8/14/2008 8:52:46 PM)

quote:

please give the verse.


As I'm sure you already know there is no specific verse that speaks to a pre-trib rapture.....so I'm left wondering why the question? By the way in the old days of Crosswalk some were called pan trib. Meaning whether pre.....mid.....or post it will all pan out in the end.

What do you think Paul meant when he wrote 1 Thessalonians 1:10 "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

Now we are both still here and Jesus hasn't returned yet and so one could be lead to believe that they would be delivered from a wrath to come which is yet future. So the question is are we delivered by rapture or are we still here and delivered as the children of Israel were from wrath as they stood amongst the Egyptians protected by a blood covering?

Just thinking out loud[8|]



Carico -> RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... (8/14/2008 10:17:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bettymackII

please give the verse.

This was a topic that I had used before and one of the poster (Bob97)
had a better wording of it and would like to try this again if it is okay?

The pre-trib rapture is unbiblical because it contradicts MT. 24:22 that those days will be shortened for the sake of the elect. That means that the elect have to be on earth during the tribulation. Otherwise, it wouldn't matter to the elect how long the tribulation lasts if we're in heaven.



Ntech -> RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... (8/14/2008 11:06:13 PM)

All things considered I would say the point is moot.

With the rebirth of Israel in 1948 I would say that some predicted end time events have already occured. And that we are already into a tribulation period.

As i see it in Matthew 24-34 Jesus Christ said that this generation will not pass until all these things are finished. I would say that "generation" is already running and that it's approximatly 70 to 80 years long based on Psalms 90-10.



Now if you want to know if it is going to happen before the reign of the Antichrist I would say thats possible.

Look at Revelation 8-13. The multitude of people suddenly appears during the events of the 6th seal. That has to be the rapture event.

So i would place it as an early mid trib event.



bettymackII -> RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... (8/16/2008 10:58:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dandebm1

quote:

please give the verse.


As I'm sure you already know there is no specific verse that speaks to a pre-trib rapture.....so I'm left wondering why the question? By the way in the old days of Crosswalk some were called pan trib. Meaning whether pre.....mid.....or post it will all pan out in the end.

What do you think Paul meant when he wrote 1 Thessalonians 1:10 "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

Now we are both still here and Jesus hasn't returned yet and so one could be lead to believe that they would be delivered from a wrath to come which is yet future. So the question is are we delivered by rapture or are we still here and delivered as the children of Israel were from wrath as they stood amongst the Egyptians protected by a blood covering?

Just thinking out loud[8|]


Interestingly, God's wrath actually begins in Rev. 6:17 ("the great day of his wrath is come") - after the sun/moon darkening in verse 12. Everyone agrees that Jesus places the same darkening after the tribulation in Matt. 24. So it seems to be clear that God's wrath doesn't begin until the very end of the tribulation. If the wrath of the tribulation isn't God's wrath, then it must be Satan's wrath, as found in Rev. 12:12 ("the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath"). An eye-opening article on Google entitled "Famous Rapture Watchers" quotes the greatest Greek scholars of the past as to how they interpreted Rev. 3:10 and its keeping from the hour of temptation which many have equated with the tribulation. I think we have to remember that there are different kinds of wrath in the NT and, of course, true believers will never ever experience God's wrath which is always reserved for only unbelievers. Even Scofield doesn't see a rapture in I Thess. 1:10 because he sees true believers waiting on earth until the "Second Advent" to earth at the trib's end, which means that the wrath at the second advent is second coming wrath on only unbelievers.



bob97 -> RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... (8/16/2008 11:13:23 AM)

Well done Betty and keep the faith.

Bob



dandebm1 -> RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... (8/16/2008 11:26:53 AM)

By the way I'm not a pre-trib rapture-ist to be clear .....those who are however are still my friends[8|]


bettymackII .....thanks for the info on Famous Rapture Watchers.



Sinner-Saint -> RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... (8/16/2008 12:32:26 PM)

Does God's Wrath come at Rev 6:17?

I don't think so.

That's what the wicked say - not God.

Why do the wicked say that?

Because before the Harvest three angels traverse the earth and the first one says:

quote:

Rev 14:7 He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."

God's Wrath indeed does start on the Day of the Lord, but that is NOT what happens immediately when Jesus appears on the clouds.

No, He comes to steal the one thing of value from out beneath the jackboot of the anti-Christ which is about to totally crush the object of his persecution: us.



bob97 -> RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... (8/16/2008 1:27:43 PM)

Saint...is not the wrath the next event following the opening of the 6th seal?


I watched as the Lamb broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake. The sun became as dark as black cloth, and the moon became as red as blood. Then the stars of the sky fell to the earth like green figs falling from a tree shaken by a strong wind. The sky was rolled up like a scroll, and all of the mountains and islands were moved from their places. Then everyone—the kings of the earth, the rulers, the generals, the wealthy, the powerful, and every slave and free person—all hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. And they cried to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to survive?" (Rev 6:12-17)

Bob



Sinner-Saint -> RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... (8/16/2008 7:45:43 PM)

Yes. God's Wrath does follow the sixth Seal events.

Once the seventh Seal is broken and the Scroll can be unfurled, which is where I think the desolations God has decreed (Dan 9:26) have been written so as to be stored so they can go forth at the end, the first thing that happens is silence in Heaven for half an hour.

(This proves there are no women in Heaven. [:D] )

Then the first Trumpet sounds and fire, which is an integral part of Old Testament Day of the Lord Wrath burns a third of the earth. There would also be smoke from this (the 2nd element).

Following the Harvest in Revelation 14 we also find that an Angel goes out from the Temple and reaps the earth too, but these "grapes" are pressed in God's Winepress (of Wrath) rather than being taken into the barn.

There are two distinct battles on the second half of the Day of the Lord which would also supply the blood which is the third element associated with Old Testament Day of the Lord Wrath.



bob97 -> RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... (8/16/2008 7:55:07 PM)

Saint...do you see a battle at mid week?

Bob



colliefan -> RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... (8/16/2008 9:05:38 PM)

For those who hold to a pre-trib rapture, and a literal milenium, how can Jesus Christ preside over a return of the sacrifical system?

Heb 7:27 - 28 (ESV) 27He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. 28For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.

Heb 9:11 - 12 (ESV) 11But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come,£ then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Heb 9:23 - 28 (ESV) 23Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Heb 10:8 - 14 (ESV) 8When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in £sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He abolishes the first in order to establish the second. 10And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when Christ£ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.



Sinner-Saint -> RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... (8/16/2008 10:32:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97
Saint...do you see a battle at mid week?

More like an invasion.

The King of the North camps by Jerusalem which has the only "Holy Mountain" in the Old Testament which is literally between two seas, the Mediterannean and the Dead Sea in Daniel 11:45.

In a multiple account of the same event, Luke 21:20 says encamps around Jerusalem.

Following that, the anti-Christ enters Jerusalem and is enscounced in the Temple by the false prophet and the latter erects a talking image of the former in the Temple. That is the abomination(s).

I think this invasion would be akin to the Gog/Magog War in Ezekiel. The destruction of the forces from the North would be accomplished by the Lord on the (second half of the) Day of the Lord which comes some time after the midpoint abomination, after the Great Tribulation, and after the resurrection of the Dead in Christ and the Rapture of those who are alive and are left. Then the Lord will come with those who never leave His side, the 144,000, and they will rout the army of the North.

The destruction of these forces would be a prime source for the amount of blood which will cover Israel around Jerusalem.

Fire, smoke, and blood all are used to cleanse the Land spiritually.



bob97 -> RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... (8/16/2008 10:37:19 PM)

Hi Saint...

Yes...I'm thinking of Ezekiel 38-39 and the hook in the jaw of Gog. Really fits whats going on in Russia right now...building towards this event.

Bob



Sinner-Saint -> RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... (8/16/2008 10:51:24 PM)

Well Bob, I think Russia will be part of the fourth terrible beast.

Georgia is just a warm-up.

The bear supplies the feet (rev 13:2), and an army marches on...

The anti-Christ may very well use the Russian army to invade Israel and to protect him, but he will not be in Israel on the Day of the Lord when that army is destroyed.



cog41 -> RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... (8/17/2008 12:58:48 AM)

quote:

Georgia is just a warm-up.


Interesting.

Azerbaijan next? or go through Georgia to Armenia?



bob97 -> RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... (8/17/2008 9:53:54 AM)

In my opinion Russia will roll through all the old satellite nations. Putin wants to restore the old USSR and who is going to stop him?

Like I said before…Russia has their hand on the oil valve of Europe. If they were to object with any force they would freeze.

Bob



cog41 -> RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... (8/17/2008 1:51:27 PM)

Under Putin they are debt free and have increased military spending close to 60%.
I tend to agree with your thinking on the satellite nations, although I not sure they'll go after all of them.



wreid77 -> RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... (8/18/2008 5:29:50 PM)

Really rolling off topic there aren't we...

I'll say this with regard to the OP: I would prefer pre-trib...I mean if it were simply a matter of choice, take me home sooner rather than later.

I don't think there is a case for pre-trib, I do think a case can be made for mid-trib (shortening the days). I probably fit most closely into this group as I think the flight to the wilderness is actually prophecying Israel's flight from the antichrist after he desecrates the restored temple. I know there is a contingent who throw the prospect of Petra being a city of refuge out just because of the "Left Behind" series, but that idea was around long before the book and at the very least is interesting.



cog41 -> RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... (8/18/2008 9:39:48 PM)

Depends on on how much if any dispensatioanl thinking /theology you agree with.
I'm pre trib,believe in a distinction between the new/physical Israel and the church, but also calvinistic in most of my other beliefs.(yes I agree with Macarthur)
I don't believe things will be a piece of cake or normal before the church is raptured. I believe it'll be very difficult for believers everywhere. We may think it is mid trib but will be just the beginning.
As for The Left behind series, it did nothing for me.
Much prefer Joel Rosenberg's Last Jihad series. Not that I agree on how things will come about but it is good entertaining reading.



Deleted User -> [Deleted] (8/23/2008 1:26:47 AM)

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Cyberseeker -> RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... (8/23/2008 6:17:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bettymackII

IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural ... please give the verse.


Here y' are Bet [:)]

"Immediately after the distress of those days ... the Son of Man will appear in the sky ... And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."
(Matt 24:29-31)



cog41 -> RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... (8/23/2008 8:54:00 AM)

quote:

. I think that you agree, then, with LaHaye on the pre-trib 'raptura'; though. Also, the 'left behind' is fictional entertainment based on some biblical realities.

cog42 = 'chosen of god' 42 months that the nations of the gentiles will trample the Holy City Jerusalem at the testimony of two witnesses as written.



I'm sur Lahaye is pretrib but not sure where LaHaye stands or predicts on who,what when where etc.. But I believe in the rapture of the church prior to the tribulation. Yes, I'm aware left behind is fictional,but I lost interest in the series and gave it up. As I said it did nothing for me. Last Jihad is also fictional,better written and I believe Rosenberg's personal experience with the Israel govt. and middle eastern affairs adds to his writing.

Yes Jerusalem will be desecrated ,it always has been and will be again.

Yes



bettymackII -> RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... (8/23/2008 10:48:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cyberseeker

quote:

ORIGINAL: bettymackII

IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural ... please give the verse.


Here y' are Bet [:)]

"Immediately after the distress of those days ... the Son of Man will appear in the sky ... And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."
(Matt 24:29-31)


How do you get pretrib "blood" out of a posttrib "turnip"? Even the late Dr. John Walvoord, long-time president of pretrib-promoting Dallas Theological Seminary, stated in his books that a pretrib rapture is not found anywhere in Matt. 24 (although Hal Lindsey, a DTS graduate, opposes Walvoord and has long stated that a pretrib rapture is most certainly found in Matt. 24!).



upNORTder -> RE: IF the pre-trib rapture is scriptural... (8/23/2008 7:05:09 PM)

quote:

For those who hold to a pre-trib rapture, and a literal milenium, how can Jesus Christ preside over a return of the sacrifical system?


Sacrifices are also offered in remembrance. The Lord's supper is in remembrance.



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