Team in rebellion to leadership (Full Version)

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heavenly4you -> Team in rebellion to leadership (8/12/2008 10:45:51 PM)

I currently lead a small Bible study and have the majority of the people that I lead in rebellion to the way that I lead. Most of the time I come up with an idea for the group to do something they are in rebellion to the idea and tend to want to set the terms and conditions of how they think things should be. The group that I lead are adults ranging from age 25-50. With God's leading I finally got the group sessions to go well by rotating speakers. I recently put in charge one of the group members to take up money for a luncheon that I had planned for one of the group members,I asked this person that I put in charge if anyone gave any money and she said no.They all decided that they did not want to give money and decided that they should just give a card. Later God revealed to me by sending the one person that did give money to me and he showed me the money that he had given her and she had put his name on it, this person that I put in charged lied to me and said no one gave money, this same girl also decided that it would be best to give this guy his money back and not tell me, at that point she put herself in charge and chose to do what she felt was best,and this same person decided that it would be best to give this person a card that is leaving instead of the luncheon that I had planned. Has anyone ever experienced anything like this and if so how did you handle it? Although this type of behavior does not surprise me and God has taught me not to put my faith and hope in people, it is very difficult to lead a group of rebellious adults who want things there way and who do NOT want to submit to my leadership. This small group was formed at work and I became the group leader after the other person left after such a short time. She was fed up with them I am sure of it.Let me know your thoughts and comments on this topic if you can give some Godly advice and wisdom..Thank you



ironsharpensiron -> RE: Team in rebellion to leadership (8/12/2008 11:04:31 PM)

Heavenly4you, I am very saddened by what you wrote, but not surprised. It would seem to me these co-workers are looking more for social time whenever you meet instead of truly wanting to know the Lord more through the study of His Word.

The beneficial thing for you to do in order to grow in the Lord is to dump this crowd and move on. I would highly suggest finding a local church that has weekly study groups and get involved that way. These people will only frutrate you, and try to bring you down, which it sounds like they already have.

If they ask, tell them the truth (lovingly), and part ways.

They do not want to listen, to be lead, and sound like a group of twelve-year-olds.

Keep them in prayer, but for your own sake, find a group that wants to study God's Word, and where you will be encouraged.

matthew



pbaribeault -> RE: Team in rebellion to leadership (8/12/2008 11:11:53 PM)

I'm confused why any group of Christian adults would be considered incapable of deciding what they want to do as a group and acting on it. Most small Bible studies run this way, and I consider it an excellent way to empower and satisfy the spiritual needs of a wide variety of people.

If people have their own ideas of what to do and how, I do not consider it "rebellion" -- rather I consider it to be both ordinary and healthy. People are supposed to do what they think is best. They are supposed to be taught to think well, which is a role for a leader, but your ideas about rebellion and submission have no foundation.

If you want a lunch, you plan it, and get people on board. While the one woman should not have lied to you about having returned the money of the one person who was on board, when she discovered that the others were not... the fact of the matter is that not many people were on board. Meaning that you had not lead them to accept this idea, meaning that you are not exercising terribly persuasive leadership.

To lead people you have to build both credibility and personal relationships. If you have not done so, and the people are not 'following' you -- I'm thinking that's why. You might try that sort of thing, instead of just deciding what's on the agenda and telling them so. Your experience tells you that model doesn't work.

If someone in my life had the expectations that you seem to, I wouldn't go anywhere near the group.



heavenly4you -> RE: Team in rebellion to leadership (8/13/2008 7:51:56 AM)

Hi, Thanks for your reply. Actually our group together as a team decided to have this luncheon for this girl as a group to honor her departing. The one girl that I put in charge to take up the money decided herself later that she would return the money to the one person because the others ones wanted the luncheon but said that they did not want to pay.



pbaribeault -> RE: Team in rebellion to leadership (8/13/2008 8:23:14 AM)

People who do not want to pay for something clearly do not want it very much.

Perhaps some encouragement and communication of the cost and details up-front might have helped. Plus a discussion with a sense of openness, listening and non-judgmental-ness whare they might have felt free to voice their opinions, ideas or objections more freely before the course was set. Then you could have dealt with the objections, assessed how interested they really were, and either abandoned your idea or brought them along somehow.



gmedifast -> RE: Team in rebellion to leadership (8/14/2008 6:37:10 PM)

There seems to be some type of disunity here in this Bible study. First I would examine myself and see if possibly you are not listening to the group. I am currently working in a church under the pastor who's only acceptable ideas are his own. That means if you are over a department or ministry you have no say so in that ministry. You just show up and do what he tells you to do.

This is what has evolved in my life as a result. I have a strong gift of helps. I will do anything to help build the ministry and the proof is in the fact I have served in every ministry of our church accept nursery and sound. I have done everything from scrub toilets, to teach Sunday School. Many Sundays over the last few years I was the first person to arrive to the church...even before the pastor...to take care of the little things so we could all not be rushed to start Sunday service. Recently, my pastor chose to "restructure" one of the minsitries in which I am a leader I essentially walked into a mess one day and it affected me in such a way that I really considered leaving. After a discussion with leadership, I decided to stay. But this is where It affected me, I have resigned myself over to just showing up and functioning in my ministries alone. I do not feel lead to "do extra" I am on time, I have not signed up for extra duties I essentially in many areas feel that if my pastor wants to run things I am going to let him and I am going to stop giving myself over to trying to make a different because it is obvious that he does not want me to.

Is this the case in your Bible Study? Are you the end all with all activities? Or are you listening to what the class wants to do? You are teaching people who hold regular jobs, pay house payments and make their own way in this world. You cannot treat them like a youth group or a children's church. Now mind you what this one lady did was not ethical, but you may need to pay attention to what the group desires.

One thing that is evident, they must like you as a Bible study leader because if not, they would have all left a long time ago. This is not a group of people who's parents are bringing them to church, they are old enough to come on thier own. Maybe one class meeting you need to have a heart to heart talk with them and listen.

Just some thoughts!!!



InfoCentral -> RE: Team in rebellion to leadership (8/14/2008 8:24:17 PM)

It's tough when your dealing with rebellious individuals. You may just have to disband and restart again at a later time. This will give those who could care less the time to move on and those who want to get with the program the opportunity to grow in unity.

BTW, since your talking about small groups you should check out this site as they really know small groups.



staceynms -> RE: Team in rebellion to leadership (8/14/2008 9:25:00 PM)

I say, keep the Bible study, don't make a big deal about this one thing. Then when another occasion arises, suggest that one of the persons participating in the Bible study take it over. Maybe they want some hands on and participate. Leadership to me is the ability to guide, be an example and delegate. You're in a Bible study, isn't it important to be an example of the fruits of the spirit. Not that you're not, because if you're "leading" the study, then I would believe you are seeking to grow. Patience is a virtue. Some of these people may be really immature Christians, meaning they really don't know how to relate or behave in a small group. Pray about it........

As far as the person who lied to you. I take that as she needs some gentle mentoring.....


Edited to add:
Well, I went back and saw where you put one person in charge and she's the one that lied. Don't put her in charge anymore.....

Hmmm? Didn't I say, patience is a virtue. Bless your heart...........



ironsharpensiron -> RE: Team in rebellion to leadership (8/14/2008 11:43:15 PM)

Heavenly, when I first read your OP I understood it one way and wrote in answer according to how I took your post. I was surprised to read how others responded to your post, but I still stand with what I wrote.

I have been in church leadership for the better part of my life, and have seen instances like you are going through many times.

Let me ask you this question, and tell me if this is accurate or not...I took your post to mean that when the original 'leader' of the group (or I could say the person who was put into that position) left, that everyone agreed for you to coninue the group and lead it. You agreed, believing it was an awesome opportunity~~which, yes, it is. Problems then began to arise because, even though they wanted you to 'lead' the group, they actually felt they needed to 'lead' the group without the accountability of being the 'leader' of the group. Am I headed in the right direction here or am I reading another OP..? [8|]

If the answer is yes, then I can totally understand your frustration(s). Most people want to 'lead,' yet are not called to. They want to 'lead' yet do not want to take on the consequences as said leadership.

This is what I feel is happening here. They want to be the chief's and not the indian's.

Both InfoCentral and Staceynms seem to have very good suggestions here.

I hope this has helped...

matthew



buckifn -> RE: Team in rebellion to leadership (8/15/2008 11:04:34 PM)

Well it isn't a good thing if you are the only one making decisions and choosing ideas of what the group should do. That's not what a good leader does. A good leader finds a way to get everyone to add ideas. Maybe you could have a suggestion box for outings and other activities? Draw the top 3 and then vote on them as a group. If most of the group does not want to attend a luncheon because of the cost I would say listen to them. Plan a fundraiser to help pay for costs or plan something easier to afford.

Advance notice is the best advice I can give if planning something costly. Plus provide a way that all can be included regardless of inability to pay. Small group leaders should always think how to make everything their group does all inclusive.

Maybe you should stay focused on the Word and let your social time be free refreshments? Rotate weeks for each member to be responsible for providing refreshments.

If this is a group of your co-workers the last thing you want to do is offend everyone. Maybe you should have a meeting..form a planning committee, and plan a calendar of events for your group based on everyone's ideas. Have you tried that?



Dakotasunbeam -> RE: Team in rebellion to leadership (8/16/2008 8:55:51 PM)

i love buckfin's advice. True leadership is servant leadership. This bible study should be a fellowship in brotherhood--breaking bread and learning from the Word of God and individual testimony. Good leaders lead by earning the loyalty of the group. You are bound to have a Judas. Jesus was the Son of God, and even He had a rebellious one within His midst. But He never rebuked Judas. He let him be, and went on being who He was, the Son of God. He led by example and humility.

Everyone should be making decisions here. Everyone is part of this group. If the whole group doesn't like an event--I wouldn't necessarily call that rebellion. I'd call it "Time to change the plan." These are not children that you can lead about by the hand. Each person has his/her own personality, likes dislikes, and (hopefully) relationship with the Lord.

I do not think this model is effective in Bible study or in churches. I think it silences far too many people who are called just as handily by God as the "leader." We are all members of one body, and no part has the preimmenence over the other. The Bible makes that vitally clear. When there is talk of rebellion and submission, it is in regard to spiritual matters, hence you're not truly being in submission to a "person" but the word of God, and if a person in your group heralds that word, you need submit to that.

I hope all goes well in your group. But remember, your job as a leader is to bring cohesion. The woman who lied just may be your Judas. And such a lie should be confronted, for if she is a christian, she is hampering her own Christian walk.



elliemaejune -> RE: Team in rebellion to leadership (8/18/2008 11:52:58 PM)

Well, I'm a little puzzled.

This is a group of people from work, yes? IOW, it isn't a church; it's just a group of people who voluntarily joined together for a Bible study, yes?

Ok, if this is so, how is it that they are actually supposed to be under your authority?

It seems to me as if the whole thing is out of balance somehow. If I were in your position, I'd either gracefully bow out, or I'd join the others in charting a new direction.



heavenly4you -> RE: Team in rebellion to leadership (8/19/2008 8:26:09 PM)

Hi thanks for your post. I am a really good listener to the group and their needs and everyone is treated as an individual and the adults that they are, the problem is everyone wants something different and although I am the leader everyone wants me to choose their idea over how things shoud be instead of agreeing as a group. When some of the individuals do not get their way they try to cause chaos and problems by gossiping and nitpicking about everything... After much talking to them they will finally agree but then when it comes to them having to pay for anything they all claim they have no money, they want to have luncheons etc..but it's as if they expect me to pay for it. God lead me to give each person a chance to speak, so we rotate speakers on a weekly basis, so it's not all about me and not all about my ideas, all ideas or any sense of direction that I choose is a result of listening to the group, then praying to God for direction and then making a decision after God confirms for me the direction that the Bible study should take.



heavenly4you -> RE: Team in rebellion to leadership (8/19/2008 8:32:29 PM)

You are exactly right on, after leading this group for months, I know they all love the Lord but I've known for quite some time that they are more interested in using the Bible study for social time and getting their frustrations out and easing their stress and frustrations about work and about life than they are about really learning God's word. This is evident when a straight Bible study is presented they have no real interest, I've watched this, but the moment the group meeting is more social with just a little Bible study and it gives them a lot of time to talk and get their frustrations out, they absolutely love it!



heavenly4you -> RE: Team in rebellion to leadership (8/19/2008 8:45:05 PM)

Hi, I was chosen for the leadership position by the girl that left because she said that God told her to choose me because I had the most experience walking with God and the most knowledge about God and his way of doing things. I never thought the opportunity was "awesome", I didn't join the group to be the leader, as I never really wanted that position, because I have too many other things going on to have to take responsibility for this group of adults. There were many problems with the group from the start, the previous leader's way of dealing with it was not dealing with it. She left the group in a mess and in a state of disorder. I became the leader and had to clean up the mess. All of the group members admit to being extremely rebellious, and they admit to wanting things their way, and they also admit to having no patience, the previous girl that was in charge told me how discouraged she was with all of them, but she would never confront them, she got offered another job and left, she was sad to leave them but glad to be rid of them. You are correct in your assumption that they all want to lead and do not want the responsibility of being in charge, they want to drive from the back seat so to speak with someone else being responsible so that they can criticize and moan about what's not, and how things should be. Your answers have truly helped because you have confirmed for me the exact thing that I've felt about this group and the exact way that I see this group. Thanks so much. You seem to understand true leadership and how God ordained for it to be. Thank you for that, I beleive that God will work in the situation to bring about the desired results that he expects, so I continue to submit to his Lordship, and will continue to take responsibility for the group and I trust that God will do what needs to be done to make this group successful in following his plans and purposes for the group.



InfoCentral -> RE: Team in rebellion to leadership (8/20/2008 12:28:17 AM)

I was reluctant to respond thinking that since you haven’t responded lately and your low post count that you just blew through. I see now that you have returned so let me continue.

I am appalled at the poor secular advice given here on was is a Christian Forum. I can’t believe that Christians would boldly align themselves with those who are rebellious and trouble makers. Even going so far as to say that leadership should step aside and give into the demands of the group. The new age chaos belief where no one is in charge we are all in charge and leadership is to questioned, challenged and resisted. Just how ridiculous is that secular philosophy.

The Bible is very clear on where God stands in regards to leadership and our attitude towards those in charge. God says he put them there and we are to submit to them and respect them. King David could have saved himself a lot of heartache and trouble by taking out the one in charge but he knew this principle and said who am I to destroy what God had put in place.

You are in your position not of your own resolve but by the will of God. Rebellion to you, as King David believed, is rebellion to God. And those who support those in opposition to leadership support opposition to the will of God. When God would give up on the rebellious Jews what did he do? He would disband them and scatter them till they thought about it and cried out to be reunited with Him. Then He would gather them together and institute some rules to follow or else. Disbanding and regrouping is a principle God used quite a bit. Something to meditate on



ironsharpensiron -> RE: Team in rebellion to leadership (8/20/2008 2:45:15 AM)

quote:

I am appalled at the poor secular advice given here on was is a Christian Forum. I can’t believe that Christians would boldly align themselves with those who are rebellious and trouble makers. Even going so far as to say that leadership should step aside and give into the demands of the group. The new age chaos belief where no one is in charge we are all in charge and leadership is to questioned, challenged and resisted. Just how ridiculous is that secular philosophy.


Could not have stated that better, InfoCentral. Agree 110%!!

matthew



ironsharpensiron -> RE: Team in rebellion to leadership (8/20/2008 2:47:11 AM)

Heavenly4you, I will be praying for the group, and that the Lord will guide you with His wisdom and understanding. God will certainly show you the way!!

matthew



buckifn -> RE: Team in rebellion to leadership (8/20/2008 6:19:17 AM)

quote:

You are exactly right on, after leading this group for months, I know they all love the Lord but I've known for quite some time that they are more interested in using the Bible study for social time and getting their frustrations out and easing their stress and frustrations about work and about life than they are about really learning God's word. This is evident when a straight Bible study is presented they have no real interest, I've watched this, but the moment the group meeting is more social with just a little Bible study and it gives them a lot of time to talk and get their frustrations out, they absolutely love it!


If the above is true then that is your direction right there. A group leader is called to meet the group on whatever level they are AND point them in the direction of Christ. If you know a lot of their problem is frustration, needing to vent etc then allow that to happen, but only as it aligns with God's Word. Choose one or two scriptures that teaches us to cast our cares/burdens on the Lord and make the Word the central focal point. A leader's job is to take what the group brings to the table and put Christ in the center.

You can do that. That is what God's Word is for. Helping us in our day to day struggles, and pointing the way to Him. Don't worry about "you" "your feelings" your frustrations with the people...GOD will handle that...give the group to Him in prayer and let Him use you to point them to Him.

From what you said above they have clearly shown you what they need. Are you willing to help them build a bridge from there to a closer walk with God? Remember sheep have to be led...they need a shepherd to take them to the quiet streams.



Bro_Shane -> RE: Team in rebellion to leadership (8/20/2008 3:53:08 PM)

Youhave no authority over these people. They are not rebelling against you, they are doing what selfish and dishonest people do.

Leave the group, bring whomever wishes to have serious prayer and study with you. Get this authority notion out of your head.



heavenly4you -> RE: Team in rebellion to leadership (8/20/2008 8:44:25 PM)

Hi Infocentral,
Thanks for your response. I had not responded because I was working on a lengthy project that required focus and concentration. Thanks for your advice and direction, I fully agree with you and I appreciate your thoughts and direction on this!



heavenly4you -> RE: Team in rebellion to leadership (8/20/2008 8:45:30 PM)

Thank you ironsharpens iron, I really appreciate that



heavenly4you -> RE: Team in rebellion to leadership (8/20/2008 8:50:09 PM)

Hi Bro_Shane, I don't have an authority notion in my head, but infocentral's post said it best on where God stands regarding leadership:

I am appalled at the poor secular advice given here on was is a Christian Forum. I can’t believe that Christians would boldly align themselves with those who are rebellious and trouble makers. Even going so far as to say that leadership should step aside and give into the demands of the group. The new age chaos belief where no one is in charge we are all in charge and leadership is to questioned, challenged and resisted. Just how ridiculous is that secular philosophy.

The Bible is very clear on where God stands in regards to leadership and our attitude towards those in charge. God says he put them there and we are to submit to them and respect them. King David could have saved himself a lot of heartache and trouble by taking out the one in charge but he knew this principle and said who am I to destroy what God had put in place.



heavenly4you -> RE: Team in rebellion to leadership (8/20/2008 8:55:56 PM)

Quote from Buckifn:
If the above is true then that is your direction right there. A group leader is called to meet the group on whatever level they are AND point them in the direction of Christ. If you know a lot of their problem is frustration, needing to vent etc then allow that to happen, but only as it aligns with God's Word. Choose one or two scriptures that teaches us to cast our cares/burdens on the Lord and make the Word the central focal point. A leader's job is to take what the group brings to the table and put Christ in the center.


This is exactly what I am doing pressing in for God's direction and choosing a topic and making two points and then having lots of discussion time, but the end result is always the same I point them to God, and I use lots of examples of what Jesus did when he faced similar situations and similar temptations , they absolutely love and adore it and want more of it!



buckifn -> RE: Team in rebellion to leadership (8/20/2008 9:33:50 PM)

heavenly

I came back to add don't forget the lesson doesn't stop just because the meeting is over either. We never know how God is going to bring back up the seed that is planted when we teach His Word...and the lesson they need may be given to them in their alone time with God when nobody else is there to distract them.

We don't always see immed. results but we are to keep sowing the seed.



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