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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 3:43:35 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3752
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
This leads into my question for you below that addresses the "easy and obvious answer" to your question that you claim that the FW camp can offer.
God knows in advance who will be saved whether you are Arminian or Calvinist or Free Will or whatever. Since he already knows, since he knows the outcome from the beginning of time, what would be the reason for Jesus to preach in any of these systems?
The answer is very simple. The reason is because Christ was to die for everyone. That is why He could say to everyone that they will die in their sins unless they believe in Him.
what you and all the reformists have avoided is explaining why Jesus would tell the non-elect to believe in Him and avoid dying in their sins. That very concept contradicts calvinism. I'm just amazed that none of you seem to see this.
You failed to see my point.
We both agree that God knows ahead of time who will be saved (regardless of how it comes about).
Therefore, I ask you the same WHY question.
If he knows beforehand that certain people won't believe, then WHY did he tell them about salvation?
The answer is quite obvious. He told everyone about salvation because His plan was to die for everyone and salvation is for everyone.
IF He didn't plan to die for everyone, what is the point of telling those for whom He didn't plan to die that "UNLESS you believe in Me, you will die in your sins"? You haven't answered THAT question.
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It's the same question that you've repeatedly asked the RT camp. Saying that Jesus died for all people doesn't answer the question of WHY he would preach to people that he knows won't believe.
You are missing the point, and I just answered your WHY question. Will you answer mine? It is specifically about WHY He told the "non-elect" that they would die in their sins UNLESS they believed in Him.
Why would He say that to those for whom He wouldn't die for? Is that question more clear to you?
Your question is and has been clear.
And my WHY WHY WHY question is the same as yours. Claiming that Jesus died for everyone doesn't answer the question.
If Jesus knew beforehand who would and wouldn't believe (regardless of Calvinism or Arminianism or Free Will), why would he say that to those he KNEW wouldn't believe?
Taunting? 
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 4:12:58 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
SH ,
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LOL!!! So, you think that man was created to obey God some of the time and sin the rest of the time? I think your opinion has taken you down a theological dead end.
Correct me if I'm wrong : but does not Calvinism teach that God created some men to do nothing but sin all the time (the reprobate) , and the elect who will only sin some of the time ?
Not that I know of. Do you have any quotes?
From the WCF : All those whom God hath predestined unto life , and those only , he is pleased , in his appointed and accepted time , effectually to call , by his Word and Spirit , out of that state of sin and death , in which they are by nature , to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ :
These would be the elect who will only sin some of the time (mostly before the effectual call) .
Then we have the vessels of wrath , who were (according to Calvinism) prepared to be vessels of wrath from before the foundation of the world ; those whom God reprobated , not because of anything He saw in them , nor anything they would or would not do ; God by His choice merely reprobated them . They can do nothing but sin .
Is that not a Calvinist teaching in a paraphrase ?
That said, WHY would Jesus, who is omniscient, tell one or a group of the so-called "non-elect" that they would die in their sins UNLESS UNLESS UNELSS they believe in Him, when reformed theology claims that Christ didn't die for any of the so-called "non-elect", nor can they believe?
Reformed theology destroys any meaning from John 8:24. Yet, KJB thinks that the answer to WHY Jesus said what He said is "because they cannot hear".
I suppose that if you are speaking to someone who is deaf, you can "get away" with saying anything you want, because it doesn't make any difference what you say since they cannot hear you nor follow any advise you may give.
Maybe that's the reformed answer: Jesus could "get away" with saying what He did because they were unable to hear Him.
So, to the reformists, what Jesus said was NOT taunting the poor hapless, chose-less so-called "non-elect" because they couldn't hear Him anyway.
OK, so it seems they are OK with saying anything at all to those who are deaf, because it just doesn't make any difference since they can't hear you.
Got it.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 4:27:29 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
The glitch is in your refusal to see that honoring Him as God and being thankful are HOW people seek God.
Show me that “honor Him as God or give thanks to Him” has to mean seeking God. It is easy to say that you are right and I have a ‘glitch,’ but quite another thing to show without a doubt that honoring God has to mean seeking God, when honoring God and giving thanks mean so much more.
I'm not arguing that it doesn't mean "more". But you haven't proven that "without a doubt" that it doesn't mean to "seek God".
There is great doubt that 'honor God' does mean 'seeking God', especially in light of the 3 lexicons I quoted for your reading pleasure. The burden of proof is upon you, not me.
Let's get this straight, please. my pov is that "honoring God" as well as "being thankful" is included in what one doesd when one seeks God.
Since you refuse to define what you may think "seeking God" looks like, the burden of your proof lies on you, since you won't even venture an idea of it. Seems your pov is so stuck on the idea that no one can seek God, there is no way to even imagine what it would look like. You are just dodging the issue.
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It might mean seeking God as much as it might mean telling others about Him or singing or praying or a number of other things that catch your fancy.
How does witnessing count as "seeking God"? Seems to me that one who witnesses HAS ALREADY FOUND GOD. Please elaborate.
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The fact remains there is no proof that honoring God means seeking God.
Rather, you have no proof to deny that honoring God doesn't include seeking Him.
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And you won't even make a guess as to what "seeking God" might look like. So, you have no case.
You've got to be joking. . . . I have no case because I "won't even make a guess as to what 'seeking God' might look like"? LOL! There is no logic to that whatsoever. I have a case because I have shown that which the apostle Paul wrote and have backed up what I have said with 3 lexicons. What more proof would a thinking person need.
A thinking person would realize that men do seek God. You are unwilling to even accept that.
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Honoring God means living in a way that shows adoration, praise, worship and honor to God, not seeking God.
I believe one who recognizes the existence of God, and doesn't show adoration, praise, or worship certainly wouldn't seek Him. What is your point?
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When someone honors someone else it does not have to mean that the person is seeking the other.
But it certainly CAN, which you seem to just want to reject, deny, and refuse.
You have been basing your Cornelius doctrine on the possibility that "honor God" CAN mean "seeking God"? It CAN mean singing, or sharing, or whatever else you want to make it. I think it honors God best to take His word in Rom 1:21 for what it says and not try to read "seeking" or "singing" or "sharing" or anything else into it.
If it "can", then my point is valid. And honoring God certainly CAN include seeking Him.
When one becomes aware of His existence, that one's first response would naturally be to seek Him. To a thinking person.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 4:31:03 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3752
Joined: 3/30/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: balbas
quote:
You mean you don't think the Devil is more knowledgable than the rest of us as to God's plan for mankind?
Recall what James noted about the demons: "the demons also believe, and shudder".
Frankly, the point that Bee and I have made should make you shudder, in light of your theology. Good thing I know what this statement meant otherwise I would be wrong in my equations...
Anyway, isn't it interesting to note that demons see the truth and even knows God more than we do and yet they do not repent?
Is that by choice or are they just devils? If it were by choice, why aren't they repenting? Is it then now by nature - that is because they are demons?
I am not saying we are demons but there is something to learn in that piece of scripture. That is what sin did to us. It hardened our hearts to God. Even in the face of truth there is no natural ability to know and believe it. We may claim knowledge but the heart is not naturally open or drawn to believe it. 1 Cor 2:14
Quite insightful and true, balbas. And many other verses speak to our natural condition prior to our spiritual rebirth.
John 3:5-7
“Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
John 1:12-13
“But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”
These verses show me that God does the birthing without any help or participation on the part of man or man's will.
Ephesians 2:1-2
“And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—”
Praise be to God that he gave us new birth that gives us spiritual understanding so that we could choose to believe in Jesus!
Genesis 6:5
“The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”
Is choosing to believe in Jesus an evil thought? If our natural state is to be evil, how can we choose what is holy, that is, to believe in Jesus?
Romans 8:7-8
“For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”
The mind set on the flesh is our natural condition. Choosing to believe in Jesus would please God. If we cannot please God in our natural condition, then how can we choose Jesus?
Ephesians 4:17-19
“Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity.”
Given our natural state, what would cause someone that's alienated from God to choose to believe in Jesus? If our thoughts are continuously evil as Genesis 6:5 tells us, then something has to happen first to change our hearts/minds and remove our ignorance.
Job 14:4
“Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?
There is not one.”
Jeremiah 13:23
“Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard his spots?
Then also you can do good
who are accustomed to do evil.”
How can we choose to allow God to change us by believing in Jesus--something good--if the scripture clearly tells us that we can't choose to do good?
John 6:60-65 (The section in this chapter is even called "The Words of Eternal Life")
“When many of his disciples heard it, they said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, "Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all.The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."”
Jesus says it loud and clear. How can we possibly argue with these words?
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 4:32:27 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Does God want all mankind to repent and to have faith?
Does God want all mankind to be saved?
Reformed theology says "no" to both questions.
The Bible says "yes" to both questions.
Hmmm.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 4:35:42 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 425
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
Psalm 14 refers too the fool , meaning stupid , wicked
Ti 3:3 refers to the foolish , meaning unintelligent , sensual . It is clear they are not the same thing .
Workers of iniquity is not refering to unregenerate mankind in general , but to those who say in their heart there is no God : all the unregenerate do not say that there is no God .
Psalm 14 is not refering simply to the saved and unsaved , but to the fool who says there is no God , and to God's people
Now you are back peddling. You said earlier that you had been in the class of men called "workers of iniquity". Now you are redifining it. I agreed with you when left it as two classes of men but now that you are dividing it up we must part ways once again.
There is no difference between the fool in Psalm 14 and foolish in Titus 3.
Look at the whole verse.
(Titus 3:3) For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
If that is not a description of "workers of iniquity", I don't know what is.
Let me give you another reason yours and Free's interpretation is wrong.
Let's go back to what Paul is saying in Ro 3
(Romans 3:9) What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Paul is proving that both the unsaved Jew and the unsaved Gentile are all under sin. If this doesn't include all of unregenerate mankind then this verse makes no sense because there would be some better than others.
One Jew could say to another Gentile. "I maybe foolish and sin a little but at least I am not a fool like you who doesn't even believe there is a God".
Also look at v 23
(Romans 3:23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
This verse is definately talking about all of unregenate mankind.
So verse 9- all under sin
verse 23 - all have sinned
There is nothing in the verses between that indicate Paul speaking of a different class of sinner.
There are only two classes mentioned.
The righteouss who are righteous by faith and everyone else who are under sin.
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 4:55:43 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
Posts: 554
Joined: 1/11/2006
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Sometimes I believe that the purpose of this thread is ordained by God in order to spare sinners from the dogmatic hatefulness and from witnessing the quibbling that those who so forcefully post here...how's that for predestination and foreknowledge!
lol
_____________________________
My New Blog site
Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 4:59:00 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Why would He say that to those for whom He wouldn't die for? Is that question more clear to you?
Your question is and has been clear.
And my WHY WHY WHY question is the same as yours. Claiming that Jesus died for everyone doesn't answer the question.
Yes, it does. That's the ONLY reason He could say what He did. If you disagree, please explain WHY.
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If Jesus knew beforehand who would and wouldn't believe (regardless of Calvinism or Arminianism or Free Will), why would he say that to those he KNEW wouldn't believe?
Of course He knew beforehand. He is omniscient. The reason He told those who He knew wouldn't believe is to clearly give them no excuse for not believing. They have been warned. They have no excuse.
btw, your point about omniscience is interesting. According to your theology, those who believe or not isn't an issue of omniscience, but one of sovereignty. Typically, it is the free will group that brings up God's omniscience, whereas the reformed group sticks with sovereignty. iow, whether one believes or not is based on those God chose who would. So, why do you even note that Jesus "knew who would believe or not", when the whole point of calvinism is that God CHOSE who would believe. In that light, please answer WHY Jesus said what He said. He would certainly KNOW those for whom God chose for faith.
Anyway, the point of Jesus' omniscience is easily answered by FW pov. He was truly warning them of the danger they faced, and He gave them the true solution by which they would avoid the danger if they applied the solution.
But your theology denies that the so-called "non-elect" can even believe, nor were chosen for faith, but were "preprared for destruction". So, you still have not answered my WHY question in light of your theology.
iow, what He told them makes no sense in light of your theology. Please elaborate as to why it does make sense in light of your theology. No one has addressed that at all.
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Taunting?
According to your theology, the answer is most definitely "yes".
But, according to FW theology, the answer is most definitely "no".
Please explain WHY I'm wrong, since you disagree. No one has yet.
KJB tried to explain that whose He spoke to were unable to hear, without further explanation, so I conclude that if one is unable to hear, then it must NOT MATTER what you say to them, since they can't hear you anyway. ie: truth doesn't matter because they can't hear you.
He surely needs to further elaborate if that is not his conclusion. But it seems to be, imho.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 5:51:59 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
And my WHY WHY WHY question is the same as yours. Claiming that Jesus died for everyone doesn't answer the question.
Actually, there's more to my answer that I just gave. The reason WHY Jesus said what He said to those in John 8:24 is not only because His plan was to die for everyone, but because He wanted all of them (both the so-called "non-elect" and "elect") to know where they were headed and to avoid it by believing in Him.
If you disagree, please elaborate.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 7:35:44 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2473
Status: offline
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Hey Dio -
Lets assume you have some mysterious power to
make your wife do anything you want.
And lets assume for the sake of argument
that your wife hates your guts. 
Tell me how it could make any sense you to command
your wife to love you if she was unable?
What point would there be for you say you desire
your wife to love you if you couldn't?
Or what would be the value in waiting for your
wife to love you if she couldn't?
Why would you rejoice if your wife says
she loves you if you were the one who
enabled her to love you?
Finally, explain to me why you would change your
mind about buying her a big ring if, after waiting
patiently, she actually obeyed your command and
satisfied your desire?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 8:27:15 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
No. We know by the fact that He is the creater of the univers, which implies God's sovereignty over all creation, even Satan.
We know by examples in the bible... You wouldn't have a clue about Job apart from God's word...
quote:
However, How do you explain Your theology/doctrine sounding as if God has absolutely no regard for the sentient beings HE created.
How do you explain Your theology/doctrine that describes creation to be only pawns in a game of solitaire.
I can't explain how you see things...
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It was only an example.
And not a very good one since God isn't like anything or anyone else..
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They do not fall without HIS knowledge
I don't agree...
However, if it is his consent, it's not as if HE wants but that HE lets it happen.
That is what the control of creation is with God. God does not want everything that happends, but HE lets things happen and HE works with all things for His purpoese.
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What don't you understand of that?
Why don't you see that you have man redeeming himself and God doing it over again...
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Yes, All mankind is condemnd for not obeying and repenting on his own.
Mankind is condemn from the womb...
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Therefore, one must obey and repent on his own.
What do you think the commands to sinners are for?
Just to tease them.
Example:
The god you describe says, "I command you to obey, even though I know you can't.
I will condemn you because You can't.
I could give you ability, but I don't want to, and I will condemn you because I will not give you ability."
Ok.... Be perfect like the Father... Good luck... You are commanded to, yet Christ knows that no man ever will...
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Because Pharaoh never realy did yield.
So Pharaoh was telling a lie when he said he was going to let them go?
Verse?
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It does not tell us "To demonstrate who's in charge".
Yes it does... God made a point of using the most powerful person on earth to have His power shown to the world...
Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
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God may show His power in a yeilded hart as HE commands men to do.
Fact is He didn't with Pharaoh...
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Tell me what the new born infants were guilty of?
Explain why they were not on the ark...
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Are you agreeing or is that a question, or what?
It's a statement that you have already responded to...
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How many people does God not want to repent and why?
I guess you couldn't find any mention of Pharaoh and repenting...
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Good question, can you answer it?
Total comedy....
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The label for yours is the "nonsensical, sadistic tyrant god which dies not dwell in reality" theology/doctrin.
If you are going to call something nonsensical make sure you make sense when doing so....
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If God's purpose was to ONLY show the world His great power through the hard heart of Pharaoh & not at all through a soft heart, that would mean God never did want Pharao's heart to be soft ever.
Or God could have used Moses... But He chose not to, and because it wouldn't make the point like it did by using the likes of Pharaoh...
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I only post things of Calvin which was told to me.
This is why I can' get y'all straight
It's my opinion the problems is yours...
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How does God know they will end up in hell? Is it because God's foreknowledge of who will reject Him?
Or is it God's foreknowledge of who HE will reject?
If God's foreknowledge of who goes to hell is based on one's own desision to reject Christ, BUT God's foreknowledge of who gets save is NOT based on one's own desision obey the comnand to repent.
If it's vased on God's foreknowledge of who HE will reject, what is the criteria He uses to decide this?
Who is or isn't going to hell was known by God before the foundation of the world, so those who are going to hell where created with God knowing before hand they would go to hell...
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What do you mean?
redundancy: a: superfluous repetition : prolixity b: an act or instance of needless repetitio
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prove me wrong instead of claiming me wrong with no proof of my error.
I did....Scripture says otherwise... It doesn't qualify it like you do..
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arbitrary because it is arbitrary!
It don't matter if ones thoughts are temporial or eternal, it would stay arbitrary either way.
It's arbitrary because that's the way you see it...
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You are ony assume the criteria are of eternal quality of thought patterns, your basing your whole theology on an assumption.
So says the man that claims God doesn't always get what He wants...
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Actually those works which are of the criteria of election are not contrary to salvation, they are the obedience of repentance & faith in Christ, which is our reasonable service.
Works...
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Yet, your view actually has God being partial.
According to your theology/doctrine, God has an undue bias of mind towards the ones He elects, for they have done nothing different than the ones which HE does not elect.
Being arbitrary and partial (having undue bias toward man IS PARTIALITY)
Choosing someone who has done nothing different than the next person is the meaning of partiality, undue bias on/toward the favored.
It is? Normally there is reason behind someone be partial... Generally when people receive favoritism it's because of something about them like their color, of if they are family...
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Fact is, God elects those who meet His set requirements which He has set for all mankind, obedience to His mandated command to repent and to have faith in Christ.
These certain requirements which one must meet in order to receive eternal life are the criteria in which God uses to elect those for eternal life.
The requirements/criteria are repenting and faith in Christ.
The requirements/criteria are the commands which He has mandated all mankind to obey on their own.
This is how God stays impartial in personal election.
I can't make it any clearer
You layout the works based salvation very well...
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Doing that which one is responsible to do is not meritable.
Obedience is not meritable.
Right... God just trips and falls and salvation just happens to fall on to those who do x,y&z and not because they did something in your works bases salvation doctrine but because... Well whatever it is they had to do isn't a work...
John
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 8/14/2008 9:58:45 PM >
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 8:39:29 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1781
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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FreeGrace,
quote:
KJB tried to explain that whose He spoke to were unable to hear, without further explanation, so I conclude that if one is unable to hear, then it must NOT MATTER what you say to them, since they can't hear you anyway. ie: truth doesn't matter because they can't hear you.
Here is what GOD tells Isaiah to do;
I heard the Lord asking, Whom should I send as a messenger to this people?
We see that God does send a messenger.
He sends Isaiah to give the TRUTH to people even though GOD knows these people will not understand and learn anything. He will actually harden their hearts with the WORD of GOD.
The reason is because the WORD of GOD works two ways.
It softens those that gladly listen and it hardens those that REJECT it and never listen.
That is because there are two kinds of people that the WORD of GOD is applied to.
The NATURAL man and the UN-NATURAL man.
WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY does God send Isaiah with a message of truth when God KNOWS the people will not understand, will learn nothing, and their hearts will be made harder as he plugs their ears and shuts their eyes?
GOD does this KNOWING they will not turn to HIM to be healed.
Is it taunting?
9 And he said, “Yes, go, and say to this people,
‘Listen carefully, but do not understand.
Watch closely, but learn nothing.’
10 Harden the hearts of these people.
Plug their ears and shut their eyes.
That way, they will not see with their eyes,
nor hear with their ears,
nor understand with their hearts
and turn to me for healing.”
The messenger asks;
11 Then I said, “Lord, how long will this go on?”
God does not respond with...."I hope they repent quickly and then you can stop".
And he replied,
“Until their towns are empty,
their houses are deserted,
and the whole country is a wasteland;
12 until the Lord has sent everyone away,
and the entire land of Israel lies deserted.
13 If even a tenth—a remnant—survive,
it will be invaded again and burned.
But as a terebinth or oak tree leaves a stump when it is cut down,
so Israel’s stump will be a holy seed.”
A remnant? What is that?
5 It is the same today, for a few of the people of Israel have remained faithful because of God’s grace—his undeserved kindness in choosing them.
6 And since it is through God’s kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God’s grace would not be what it really is—free and undeserved.
7 So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have—the ones God has chosen—but the hearts of the rest were hardened.
8 As the Scriptures say,
“God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear.”
Your POV on human ability is nothing but unbiblical.
quote:
Reformed theology destroys any meaning from John 8:24. Yet, KJB thinks that the answer to WHY Jesus said what He said is "because they cannot hear".
The WHY is condemnation.
People are told the truth and the truth CONDEMNS people.
7 Yes, you who trust him recognize the honor God has given him. But for those who reject him,
“The stone that the builders rejected
has now become the cornerstone.”
8 And,
“He is the stone that makes people stumble,
the rock that makes them fall.”
They stumble because they do not obey God’s word, and so they meet the fate that was planned for them.
Now you may not like that. It might make you feel bad. It may be something you do not want to hear. It may be something you dont like to teach. It may be something you think is unfair. It may be something you think that makes God unworthy of your worship. It may be something you will never understand and accept. But hey.......its the flat out truth!
It is about time you start seeing the real helpless condition that people are in and the real power that God has and exercises.
9 But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people. You are royal priests, a holy nation, God’s very own possession. As a result, you can show others the goodness of God, for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.
That is the why.
The Word of God is always working either saving or condemning.
John 3;
“I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God.”
Yes FreeGrace.....there is an UNLESS in there.
Nicodemus assumes this is something he is ABLE to do somehow.
“How can an old man go back into his mother’s womb and be born again?”
Yeah FreeGrace......how can a man do it? How can a man be born again?
Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life.
So don’t be surprised when I say, ‘You must be born again.
Oh my gosh FreeGrace......look at all of that human ability there.
Jesus claims that UNLESS one is born again......He also claims you MUST be born again.....and then He claims humans can ONLY reproduce human life and that Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life.
Jesus MUST have been either taunting the old man or LETTING HIM KNOW EXACTLY where he stands in the realm of human ability trying to do spiritual things.
And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil.
All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed.
Now you need to ask yourself a simple question. Have you ever done evil? EVER?
All who do evil hate the light and REFUSE to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed.\
If you are not included in the "all" it has been my mistake.
If you do include yourself in the all you now have to figure out how you came to love the light.
If you think it was free-will you are blind.
And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life.
Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.
Why can’t you understand what I am saying? It is because you can’t even hear me. I tell the truth and you just naturally don’t believe me. And since I am telling you the truth, why don’t you believe me? Anyone who belongs to God listens gladly to the words of God. But you don’t listen because you don’t belong to God.
But if someone claims to be a prophet and does not acknowledge the truth about Jesus, that person is not from God.
Such a person has the spirit of the Antichrist, which you heard is coming into the world and indeed is already here.
But you belong to God, my dear children.
You have already won a victory over those people, because the Spirit who lives in you is greater than the spirit who lives in the world.
Those people belong to this world, so they speak from the world’s viewpoint, and the world listens to them.
But we belong to God, and those who know God listen to us.
If they do not belong to God, they do not listen to us.
That is how we know if someone has the Spirit of truth or the spirit of deception.
You really need to face the fact that your human ability POV is very wrong.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 9:27:50 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
It softens those that gladly listen and it hardens those that REJECT it and never listen.
Why is this an issue, since the calvinistic pov is that God chose before the foundation of the world to whom He would gift with faith? Your comment here seems to contradict your own theology. IF God is the One who chooses who will believe, why bother "softening" those who "gladly listen", or why bother "hardening" those who reject it and don't listen? Those aren't supposed to be issues in calvinism.
quote:
That is because there are two kinds of people that the WORD of GOD is applied to.
The NATURAL man and the UN-NATURAL man.
Not really. The calvinistic pov is that there are only two kinds of people in the human race: the so-called "elect"; those to whom God chose to receive the gift of faith, and the so-called "non-elect; those to whom God "prepared for destruction" and the gift of faith is withheld.
And all this choosin' occurred before the foundation of the world.
quote:
WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY does God send Isaiah with a message of truth when God KNOWS the people will not understand, will learn nothing, and their hearts will be made harder as he plugs their ears and shuts their eyes?
Why do you bring up God's omniscience, when the calvinistic pov is that God in His sovereignty chose who would believe and not? In fact, it is your theology that declares that God determines who will understand and who won't, so WHY WHY WHY do you bring up His omniscience?
quote:
GOD does this KNOWING they will not turn to HIM to be healed.
Is it taunting?
According to your own theology, God is the One who determined who would believe and who would reject, so why do you bother bringing up His omniscience? So, to answer your very own question, yes, by your very own theology, God IS taunting those He "prepared for destruction". The really amazing thing is that you don't even see the point here.
quote:
quote:
Reformed theology destroys any meaning from John 8:24. Yet, KJB thinks that the answer to WHY Jesus said what He said is "because they cannot hear".
The WHY is condemnation.
People are told the truth and the truth CONDEMNS people.
Ha! According to your very own theology, God CONDEMNED the so-called "non-elect" to destruction before the foundation of the world. God IS truth, and God condemns the so-called "non-elect" for their inability. Your answer continues to fail to answer my WHY question. Because your theology fails to have an answer.
quote:
They stumble because they do not obey God’s word, and so they meet the fate that was planned for them.
No, the so-called "non-elect stumble because God determined that they would. The reason they meet "the fate that was planned for them" is because God planned for them to stumble and He "prepared them for destruction".
quote:
It is about time you start seeing the real helpless condition that people are in and the real power that God has and exercises.
I suppose you are speaking about His "power" to create people for destruction because of their inability. I reject your view of God's power. I recognize the real power of God to save whosoever believes in His Son for salvation. But, apparetnly, you don't like that.
quote:
9 But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people. You are royal priests, a holy nation, God’s very own possession. As a result, you can show others the goodness of God, for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.
That is the why.
How does this verse explain the "why"? Because He chose many for destruction, you haven't answered WHY He told them they would not die in their sin if they believed in Him.
quote:
Jesus MUST have been either taunting the old man (Nicodemus) or LETTING HIM KNOW EXACTLY where he stands in the realm of human ability trying to do spiritual things.
Yes, Jesus let him know HOW to be born again in 3:15,16,17.
Well, your very long post (113) probably violated the TOS, so I won't bother responding to all your non-relevant points.
In spite of your post, you failed to answer the question of WHY Jesus would tell the so-called "non-elect" that they would die in their sins UNLESS they believed in Him. What Jesus said contradicts and condemns your theology.
{edited to fix quote boxes}
< Message edited by FreeGrace -- 8/14/2008 9:55:31 PM >
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 9:44:19 PM
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Theophile2
Posts: 216
Joined: 8/7/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
It seems to me that the reformed pov is simply that God commands that which He knows no one can do, yet He commands it anyway. That pov makes no sense to me at all.
FreeGrace - Thank you very much for helping me to understand your "free will (FW) POV" behind the question: "Why would God tell a human being to do something that he can't do."
So, I might actually have the time this evening to do my end of the research and find you the technical answer to the question (I know it's out there, I just need to go get it). In the meantime:
From the above referenced post, you stated:
quote:
"The reason God commands us to not sin, to follow His commands and be holy, is because He actually gives us the power through His Holy Spirit to do so."
I would offer that a "Reformed Theology (RT) POV" would absolutely, 100% completely agree with you (again, pending the technical answer).
See Mk 13:11; Jn 3:34; Acts 1:2; Ro 5:5; 8:11; 2Cor 1:22
Then you stated:
quote:
"But, we must be willing to be obedient and consent to His will before He gives us that ability that He commands."
I would offer that a "Reformed Theology (RT) POV" would absolutely, 100% completely agree with you (again, pending the technical answer) But with caveats:
1. First, God quickens the dead human spirit of His Elect through the preaching of the Word.
- Jn 6:63, 65 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. ... (65) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." (cf. Jn 6:44)
- Ro 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
- Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
2. Second, having a spirit that has undergone a transformation from being dead to being alive in the power of the HS, and being awakened to the call through the preaching of the Word, the individual now has the ability through the HS to publicly declare the faith given as a gift from God (Eph 2:8-9; Mt 10:33) ... because a dead spirit cannot respond (Ez 37:1-14).
3. Third, upon this declaration the process of Sanctification sets in, and Christ endows the believer with the HS who is our helper (Jn 14:16, 16:13), helping us to walk in the power of the HS, becoming stronger in our walk of obedience throughout our lives. Through this process, the HS gives the believer some gifts that again, we do not develop ourselves - they are gifts:
Ga 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, (23) gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
... and thereby, the Christian is enabled to follow the command of God, because God gives the power to do so through the HS.
In effect, RT and FW POVs have essentially the same answer to this part of the question, with the exception that one gives God the glory for the actions of the HS, and the other gives man the glory for a work of the flesh.
However, I would offer that your answer to the question "Why would God tell a human being to do something that he can't do" is incomplete. Your FW POV only answers why God would tell a Christian to be holy and follow His commandments. It does not answer the question, why would God give a non-believer the same command.
You seem to indicate through the following statement, that FW has an answer, but I would like to understand that POV first before offering to comment on the RT POV:
quote:
"Neither does it make sense to me what Jesus said to the crowd in John 8:24, in light of reformed theology. But, it makes perfect sense in light of free will theology."
Again, I offer that RT has an answer to this question, but I would prefer to seek first to understand, and I would like to first understand how FW would answer this part of the question.
Thanks, and God bless! 
_____________________________
"Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason ... my conscience is captive to the Word of God." - Martin Luther, Diet of Worms, April 2, 1521.
*** Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura, Solus Christus, Soli Deo Gloria ***
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 10:10:42 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Theophile2
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
It seems to me that the reformed pov is simply that God commands that which He knows no one can do, yet He commands it anyway. That pov makes no sense to me at all.
FreeGrace - Thank you very much for helping me to understand your "free will (FW) POV" behind the question: "Why would God tell a human being to do something that he can't do."
You're very welcome!
quote:
From the above referenced post, you stated:
quote:
"The reason God commands us to not sin, to follow His commands and be holy, is because He actually gives us the power through His Holy Spirit to do so."
I would offer that a "Reformed Theology (RT) POV" would absolutely, 100% completely agree with you (again, pending the technical answer).
See Mk 13:11; Jn 3:34; Acts 1:2; Ro 5:5; 8:11; 2Cor 1:22
Then you stated:
quote:
"But, we must be willing to be obedient and consent to His will before He gives us that ability that He commands."
I would offer that a "Reformed Theology (RT) POV" would absolutely, 100% completely agree with you (again, pending the technical answer) But with caveats:
It those pesky little "caveats" that change up everything.
quote:
However, I would offer that your answer to the question "Why would God tell a human being to do something that he can't do" is incomplete. Your FW POV only answers why God would tell a Christian to be holy and follow His commandments. It does not answer the question, why would God give a non-believer the same command.
I don't think my answer is incomplete. I think you are looking at two different issues with what you post here. God commands believers, and gives the Holy Spirit as Helper and Enabler. We agree on that. Good.
But, you added "why would God give a non-believer the same command". I don't think He did. Why would He tell a non-believer, or in your parlance, a "non-elect" to be holy? The commands that He gives to non-believers is to believe, and repent. And here is where all that "100% agreement" ends. You think regeneration precedes faith, but I've never found any support for that in Scripture. All the supposed support verses that the reformed have given do not say anything close to regeneration preceding faith.
quote:
You seem to indicate through the following statement, that FW has an answer, but I would like to understand that POV first before offering to comment on the RT POV:
quote:
"Neither does it make sense to me what Jesus said to the crowd in John 8:24, in light of reformed theology. But, it makes perfect sense in light of free will theology."
Again, I offer that RT has an answer to this question, but I would prefer to seek first to understand, and I would like to first understand how FW would answer this part of the question.
Great! Finally, someone who might answer this from the RT pov. So far, I've gotten this: Jesus may have had "secret motives", or Jesus was just telling the truth (which in no way addresses the question nor answers the WHY question), to they were unable to hear, which suggests that Jesus could say anything He wanted, and it didn't matter because they couldn't hear Him anyway.
I have rejected all that as no answer. here is the FW answer to the quesiton of WHY Jesus said what he said in John 8:24.
Because He would die for everyone, He could warn everyone of the fact that they were going to die in their sins UNLESS they believed in Him. iow, He would die for everyone so He could tell everyone that salvation was for everyone.
His statement or warning to the crowd in John 8:24 makes no sense in light of RT pov. Why would He tell the so-called "non-elect" they would die in their sins UNLESS they believed in Him, WHEN the RT pov is that God chose to whom He would give the gift of faith to, and to whom He would withhold that gift of faith?
Do you see the contradiction?
quote:
Thanks, and God bless!
Again, you're welcome. I am eager to read your response.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 10:11:15 PM
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Theophile2
Posts: 216
Joined: 8/7/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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