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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 1:20:38 PM
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HardKnox
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mcleod,
I *think* I agree with what you're saying. What's your point, please?
Ode,
Remember your post #5578, last line. I've been trying to respect that.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 1:25:44 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1705
Joined: 3/11/2007
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FreeGrace,
Some answers you came up with in answer to my statements that all you have to prove your theory is conjecture and speculation:
quote:
The conjecture is eliminated by the life of Cornelius. . . .
In spite of the example of Cornelius. . . .
Acts 10 demonstrates an unbeliever who DID recognize God as God and was thankful.
Since the life of Cornelius does not indicate the basis by which he came to "recognize God as God" he can not be used as an example of someone who sought God on the basis of the creation alone.
Because there are no objective statements in Scripture that shows that any seek God on the basis of the revelation of God in creation alone, Cornelius cannot be an example of that which is not established by Scripture.
Because there is nothing in the life of Cornelius and nothing in any Scripture that states that any seek God based upon that which creation shows us about God, then it is only conjecture and speculation to say that any do seek God on the basis of creation alone. To say that Cornelius proves the "principle" is speculation. To say that Romans 1 proves the "principle" is speculation and to say that Acts 17:27 proves that natural men seek God is mere speculation.
quote:
Here is what is IN the Bible. Romans 1 says that God reveals Himself to everyone, and no one has any excuse for not recognizing Him as God and being thankful.
Acts 10 demonstrates an unbeliever who DID recognize God as God and was thankful.
"No one has any excuse for not recognizing Him as God and being thankful" is not proof that any one has or will ever seek God based upon the revelation of God found in creation alone. Because this is so, any example would have to be clear on why the person actual did seek God, which the passage regarding Cornelius does not. It is all mere speculation.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 1:27:06 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2485
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Thank you for understanding, HN. I blocked you.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 1:32:00 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
Posts: 7713
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Let's keep it on the topic please folks.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 2:26:14 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
FG,
quote:
Not so fast. His gospel message was "Christ died for our sins". That's exactly what he reveiwed with them, and what he said he preached. So, as a travelling evangelist, that was his message.
Please deal with the issue created by his phrase "for our sins", since he preached where Christ wasn't known.
He doesn’t tell us what pronoun he used when he was preaching to the whole crowd, FG, and I don’t play the speculation game you build your pov on.
Seems you calvinists love that word - speculation.
quote:
“for our sins” is addressed to the Church in Corinth. Those who were “in the crowd” are now in the church and are brethren and are “ours” now.
I expected this type of reply. However, follow from v.1 where Paul notes "the gospel which I preached to you (as unbelievers at that time)" and again he says "the word which I preached to you" in v.2. This is in reference to when he first came to Corinth and there were no believers.
In v.3 he says in recollection, "for Idelivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins". That is the message he proclaimed to them during his first visit.
Then in v.11 he again summarizes what he preached by saying "whether then I or they, so we preach and so you believed". Did you notice the past tense use of believe? He was speaking of his first visit.
What is clear from 1 Cor, and seems you want to deny, is that Paul's message was "Christ died for our sins".
quote:
There’s no Whole World in the word “our” outside of the Jr. Woodchuck, sorry. As many of the general population of Corinth as were appointed unto eternal life believed, as in Antioch Pisidia.
No, but Paul is telling us what he first told those in Corinth when he presented the gospel. He told the crowd that Christ died for them and himself; that's what "our" means here.
quote:
(Eze 36:26 ESV) And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
See any self-surgery going on here? Who’s removing the stone and putting in the flesh? The patient or the Physician? See how easy it is?
Where is "believe" or "faith" in this passage, HK?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 2:28:04 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1705
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
He does not love God with all of his heart, mind, soul and strength and he does not love his neighbor as himself. This is the initial response to God’s revelation of Himself found in creation and it is why Paul says that all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. No it isn't. The response from Romans 1 is to recognize God as God and to be thankful, which Cornelius clearly was.
In Romans 1 the response of natural man is not to honor God and give thanks. That is Paul's point – all have sinned and are in need of the gospel.
quote:
quote:
I have always and consistently said that natural man is without excuse because he has the faculties needed to obey (he has the heart, the mind, the power of will, etc.) but he has no desire to honor God and give thanks; he has no ultimate desire to love God and love others. Based upon these deep seated desires that go contrary to the desires of God he is unable. Thus, man has no excuse and yet, because of his unwillingness, is unable.
Unwillingness is a choice, which eliminates being "unable".
Unwillingness is a choice based upon a wicked heart. A wicked heart is unwilling to honor God and give thanks. A wicked heart does not eliminate being unable because natural man has all the faculties to respond to God's revelation of Himself found in creation, but just does not want to. Natural man has a predisposition to exalt himself and belittle God. This is elementary. Therefore he makes choices based upon how he sees things and what he desires. Basic desires are not the result of choices, but choices stem from basic desires.
quote:
You are wrong. If you are able but unwilling, you are still able. If you are unable, you are also not accountable. But since we are accountable, we are able.
This is humanistic logic, but not true to Scripture. Scripture describes fallen man as without excuse and also unable.
quote:
quote:
Paul’s point in Acts 17:27 was not that some seek God. You speculate that he did, but you can’t find it there either.
The point of Acts 17:27 is that man was created for that purpose. So, man is ABLE to do so, and is accountable for not doing so.
You speculate that because Paul says "[man] should seek God," must mean that some natural men do. You don't find that in the Bible, but only in the minds of those who say it must be so.
quote:
My pov has much more support than yours.
 Why haven't you shown it then? 
quote:
quote:
quote:
Cornelius was motivated by his knowledge that God existed as Creator of the universe and he began to seek Him. That is so obvious.
Based upon speculation alone.
That is your opinion which is necessary to defend your pov.
It is necessary to keep in line with the word of God. You are the one who finds it necessary to defend a position that is not found in the Bible. And you have not shown any proof of it except speculation.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 2:29:12 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
Mark 5:1-20. Arminoids! Achtung! How in the world do you deal with this (and other passages of demon possession.) Why do demons get to violate human freedom, but God can’t?
Why do you think that my non-arm and non-cal pov is that God can't violate human freedom? I'm fully aware of the passages that clearly demonstrate His total sovereignty and omnipotence.
But, why can't you accept that God gave man the freedom to believe or reject Him? That's the fair question.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 2:32:11 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1705
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FG,
quote:
Seems you calvinists love that word - speculation.
When we speak of those who speculate we use the word "speculation."
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 2:34:19 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
Since the life of Cornelius does not indicate the basis by which he came to "recognize God as God" he can not be used as an example of someone who sought God on the basis of the creation alone.
The fact that he did is support. I don't care if you reject it as proof or not, but he DID. And since no one has any excuse for not doing what he did, it should be obvious that those who have no excuse can do it.
quote:
Because there are no objective statements in Scripture that shows that any seek God on the basis of the revelation of God in creation alone, Cornelius cannot be an example of that which is not established by Scripture.
Fine. That is your opinion. I believe that Scripture DID establish it by including Cornelius as an example. But you are free to reject whatever you want to reject.
quote:
Because there is nothing in the life of Cornelius and nothing in any Scripture that states that any seek God based upon that which creation shows us about God, then it is only conjecture and speculation to say that any do seek God on the basis of creation alone. To say that Cornelius proves the "principle" is speculation. To say that Romans 1 proves the "principle" is speculation and to say that Acts 17:27 proves that natural men seek God is mere speculation.
Seems your pov is full of speculation, then. 
quote:
quote:
Here is what is IN the Bible. Romans 1 says that God reveals Himself to everyone, and no one has any excuse for not recognizing Him as God and being thankful.
Acts 10 demonstrates an unbeliever who DID recognize God as God and was thankful.
"No one has any excuse for not recognizing Him as God and being thankful" is not proof that any one has or will ever seek God based upon the revelation of God found in creation alone. Because this is so, any example would have to be clear on why the person actual did seek God, which the passage regarding Cornelius does not. It is all mere speculation.
Yet Cornelius did exactly that. The speculation is in your pov that thinks that God caused him to seek.
Or the speculation that God causes anyone to believe.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 2:36:43 PM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
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quote:
He told the crowd that Christ died for them and himself; that's what "our" means here.
You have a copy or recording of what exact words Paul spoke to the original crowd? This is what we mean by our favorite word "speculation". We like the word, you love to do it. This is the consistent and only handling of scripture I ever see out of you, nothing explicit, just verses you can work your imagination on out of your pov. Paul is giving them the formula of the Gospel account death, burial, resurrection, and witness. He can say "our" to the church full of redeemed brothers and sisters, but there is no proof that he said "our" to the crowd from which they were drawn by the Spirit. That's just your slant since we have no record of what the exact content of his original message was. Now, why don't we talk about demon possession, since this is pretty much scraping the bottom of your barrel?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 2:39:07 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 2066
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Yet Cornelius did exactly that. The speculation is in your pov that thinks that God caused him to seek.
Until God moved to bring him the Gospel, was Cornelius saved by his "seeking" or did he still lack something before he could obtain eternal life?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 2:41:42 PM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
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quote:
Why do you think that my non-arm and non-cal pov is that God can't violate human freedom? I'm fully aware of the passages that clearly demonstrate His total sovereignty and omnipotence.
But, why can't you accept that God gave man the freedom to believe or reject Him? That's the fair question.
So, if (which is not quite consistent with your past posts, mind you) you believe God can violate human freedom, why would you think he must have given men freedom to believe or reject him, other than the whosoevers. We've given you multiple clear and explicit texts teaching the total inability of men which you've found it necessary to twist around with tons of words and posts. Can you give me one clear, explicit verse that says, say, "God gave man the freedom to believe or reject him." I think that's a fair request, don't you? I await.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 2:41:45 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
He does not love God with all of his heart, mind, soul and strength and he does not love his neighbor as himself. This is the initial response to God’s revelation of Himself found in creation and it is why Paul says that all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. No it isn't. The response from Romans 1 is to recognize God as God and to be thankful, which Cornelius clearly was.
In Romans 1 the response of natural man is not to honor God and give thanks. That is Paul's point – all have sinned and are in need of the gospel.
Paul's point about all have sinned and in need of the gospel comes in ch 3. In ch 1 he notes those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. You think that just refers to being a sinner.
Since v.19 speaks of what God reveals to everyone, and immediately follows "suppression of the truth", it should be obvious that the suppression of truth would refer to that which God has revealed to everyone. But, apparently not.
quote:
quote:
Unwillingness is a choice, which eliminates being "unable".
Unwillingness is a choice based upon a wicked heart. A wicked heart is unwilling to honor God and give thanks. A wicked heart does not eliminate being unable because natural man has all the faculties to respond to God's revelation of Himself found in creation, but just does not want to. Natural man has a predisposition to exalt himself and belittle God. This is elementary. Therefore he makes choices based upon how he sees things and what he desires. Basic desires are not the result of choices, but choices stem from basic desires.
Unwillingness is a choice, period. Where that choice comes from doesn't change my point. It's a choice. As a result, man IS able to be willing, as even HK admitted several pages ago.
quote:
quote:
You are wrong. If you are able but unwilling, you are still able. If you are unable, you are also not accountable. But since we are accountable, we are able.
This is humanistic logic, but not true to Scripture. Scripture describes fallen man as without excuse and also unable.
The problem is thinking that those unable are also without excuse. The Bible does NOT teach that.
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Cornelius was motivated by his knowledge that God existed as Creator of the universe and he began to seek Him. That is so obvious.
Based upon speculation alone.
That is your opinion which is necessary to defend your pov.
It is necessary to keep in line with the word of God. You are the one who finds it necessary to defend a position that is not found in the Bible. And you have not shown any proof of it except speculation.
Cornelius is in the Bible and requires no speculation to understand the principles he illustrates.
But you have a God given right to reject whatever you want.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 2:42:53 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
FG,
quote:
Seems you calvinists love that word - speculation.
When we speak of those who speculate we use the word "speculation."
I think you are speculating as to what I think. Which is your right.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 2:44:06 PM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
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quote:
As a result, man IS able to be willing, as even HK admitted several pages ago.
I said what? Want to direct me to that? You twisting my words around again?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 2:48:10 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1705
Joined: 3/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
Since the life of Cornelius does not indicate the basis by which he came to "recognize God as God" he can not be used as an example of someone who sought God on the basis of the creation alone.
The fact that he did is support.
He did something, but the cause is not described, so it is no support . . . only speculation.
quote:
quote:
Because there is nothing in the life of Cornelius and nothing in any Scripture that states that any seek God based upon that which creation shows us about God, then it is only conjecture and speculation to say that any do seek God on the basis of creation alone. To say that Cornelius proves the "principle" is speculation. To say that Romans 1 proves the "principle" is speculation and to say that Acts 17:27 proves that natural men seek God is mere speculation.
Seems your pov is full of speculation, then.
No, everything I said above is objective truth. You can try to shift the focus off of your own shaky position to something else, but what remains is that you have no foundation for your Rom1/Corn Theory.
quote:
quote:
"No one has any excuse for not recognizing Him as God and being thankful" is not proof that any one has or will ever seek God based upon the revelation of God found in creation alone. Because this is so, any example would have to be clear on why the person actual did seek God, which the passage regarding Cornelius does not. It is all mere speculation.
Yet Cornelius did exactly that. The speculation is in your pov that thinks that God caused him to seek.
You are the one who has brought up Cornelius as a showcase of natural man's ability. Take responsibility for your own error. I am simply showing that you have no biblical ground for your claims, only speculation.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 2:50:01 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1705
Joined: 3/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
FG,
quote:
Seems you calvinists love that word - speculation.
When we speak of those who speculate we use the word "speculation."
I think you are speculating as to what I think. Which is your right.
No, I'm just commenting on why I use the word "speculation" . . . . because the foundation of your pov is just that.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 3:01:27 PM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
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quote:
Rom1/Corn Theory
I like that.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 3:11:14 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
quote:
He told the crowd that Christ died for them and himself; that's what "our" means here.
You have a copy or recording of what exact words Paul spoke to the original crowd?
1 Cor 15 gives us the words that Paul preached to them when he was there. So, the answer is "yes".
quote:
This is what we mean by our favorite word "speculation". We like the word, you love to do it. This is the consistent and only handling of scripture I ever see out of you, nothing explicit, just verses you can work your imagination on out of your pov.
Paul's wording is very explicit. He reminded them what he preached to them. What is there about that which you don't understand?
quote:
Paul is giving them the formula of the Gospel account death, burial, resurrection, and witness. He can say "our" to the church full of redeemed brothers and sisters, but there is no proof that he said "our" to the crowd from which they were drawn by the Spirit.
That is what he told them the first time. Just read the passage again.
[quoe] That's just your slant since we have no record of what the exact content of his original message was.
Well, since he actually told them what he told them, we DO have that record.
quote:
Now, why don't we talk about demon possession, since this is pretty much scraping the bottom of your barrel?
What would you like to discuss?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 3:12:04 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
Posts: 7713
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Hardknox, SureHope, and FreeGrace, please stay off this thread until tomorrow, Dec. 3.
Y'all can come back then but you'll need to knock it off with the whole, "your speculating, no you twist what I say, no I'm not" business.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
Messages which disregard the words in red will be removed without warning and the poster may also be banned.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 5:44:05 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 2066
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From: Dothan, AL
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A sampling of verses that show God has chosen the "foolishness" of preaching the Gospel to bring about the salvation of humans:
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. -Romans 1:16
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise -Ephesians 1:13
...to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel -Ephesians 3:6
...but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel -2 Timothy 1:10
For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God. 1 Peter 4:6
How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? -Romans 10:14
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void. -1 Corinthians 1:17
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. -1 Corinthians 1:21
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 8:31:43 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1781
Joined: 12/2/2006
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Odeliya,
quote:
That is wonderful , KJ! Honestly, I only saw you and SH, if i understood his last post to me right, admitting that being a calvinist by itself doesnt affect the spiritual growth
My rate of growth might be slow or fast compared to others but I really believe God is always working.
I am just glad I was not abandoned like the Romans 1 man.
I think that is why the Word of God stipulates that we are to always be ready to forgive one another because there will be times we offend one another because none of us are perfect. We all need growth.
If there really is a "Cornelius man" as if this guy was seeking God all by his own will and without any of the power of the Spirit of God moving his will to seek.....that would be totally opposite to "Ephesians 2 man".
Think about it.
"Ephesians 2 man" was made alive but was doing and/or willing the entire list of wrong things.
The Ephesians 2 man was doing nothing at all right.
I am the made alive "Ephesians 2 man".
That is why I just cant credit my own will to any of this miracle.
Maybe some of you can credit your own wills.......I just cant do it.
Take a really close look at this guy;
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts.
Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
That is me there.
Dead, disobedient, following the ways of the world, working in accord with the spirit of Satan, gratifying the cravings of my sinful nature, following its desires and thoughts, by nature an object of wrath.
Oh by the way.....did I mention disobedient? I did but maybe I should mention "disobedient" 500 more times......because that was me, disobedient.
And even though I was doing everything wrong......He made me alive.
With my point of view I would think people should understand exactly what I mean when I say His grace is what saved me and His grace is unmerited favor.
I was saved by grace and believe me....as for where I was I can understand it was totally unmerited favor.
There was not one thing I was doing to merit Him making me alive.
There is nothing I have that I can put on the "I did" list as to doing something towards making me alive.
What really amazes me is that He glady took my sin in my place.
Its like my eyes have this focus on this part;
because of his great love.....God.....made me alive with Christ even when I was dead.
Defies all logic.
Take care,
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 10:42:03 PM
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rwe2156
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
Is it possible you guys see that the origin of your doctrine is not scripture
but worldly philosophy? I’ve just given a skim off the top of my noggin’.
I can certainly expand on that theme if you like.
First, I guess Pelagian was a worldly philosopher, as opposed to Augustine, the infant baptizer.
Second, "your" doctrine? I assume you're speaking of our view of depravity.
One as observant as you should know my theology overlaps with Frees maybe 20%
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I thought better of you than that. You ask me if I think my theology
could be flawed because I’m a sinner (saved by grace) and then use it against me.
That’s low
"That's low"? I guess so, coming from an "Arminopelagiomolinocalvinoid" like myself. LOL
If you admit your theology could be flawed than why are you so arrogant, HK?
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“As you received him, so walk ye in him.” We received him by grace through
faith, we walk the same way. 10 million years from now, rw, (when you agree that
I’m at least mostly right on the Gospel) I doubt we'll be debating the gospel, bro.
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you and I will still be upheld 100% by God for our life, existence, and faithfulness. Unregenerate and coming to salvation or regenerate and working out salvation, we are
totally dependent on the power of God.
Except for our sanctification we experience in our earthly existence.
Seems that's not 100% God, friend!
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Intent is revealed in results. If God commands and man disobeys, it
is God’s intent to show his power in them by destroying them.
What about God desiring something?
If God commands all men everywhere to repent (a universal command, BTW
for both the regenerate and unregenerate) and they disobey because they
were unable to obey, you think God needs to do this to show his power?
I think God is showing there is a way that leads to death and one to life.
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“For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have
I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might
be declared throughout all the earth.” Romans 9:22 “What if God, willing to
shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering t
he vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:”
You think God creates any man just do destroy him? I don't.
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Funny how it seems the regenerate are unable to obey either, even
after receiving the Holy Spirit? I don't get that, do you?
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You don’t think we believe the regenerate receive the Holy Spirit?
Where do you think we’ve been telling you for thousands of posts where
the power comes from? What kind of nonsense are you trying to pull?
No, I am saying regeneration is something different than receiving the Holy Spirit.
I don't believe salvation is "saved to believe". You do. Fine.
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How is it that regenerate man is now "able" to do righteousness,
but his new found free will gives him the choice to obey or not?
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This is where you are planting your pov on us. Non sequitur.
Why isn't our sanctification 100% God, 0% man? Huh?
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It makes no sense to me that one would hold a doctrine in which the Sovereign
of the Universe does not get what he wants, but we do. So, who’s running the universe
God is. He restrains evil, but does not determine it.
He allows us to sin, but does not ordain it.
God desires things - imagine that! Its Scriptural.
God changes his plans for people based on their repentance - imagine that! Also Scriptural.
His will is decretive, prescriptive and permissive.
Determinism fails because it assaults God's character.
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The truth is HK and all of us have been commanded by God to do many things,
but yet we do not always do them - by our own choice, not God's will.
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You know, I’d really like to see a verse or two that says this without your
grid-glosses, imaginary abilities you read into them. Got any? Something, maybe
as powerful as the passages I’ve given you that say your truth (opinion) is wrong?
Do you love the Lord with all your heart? Mind? Soul? Strength?
Not able to? Sure. Not willing to? Absolutely!
God's will is not for you to obey? Absolutely not!
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 10:46:07 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3752
Joined: 3/30/2007
Status: offline
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Off topic but necessary...
Mcleod, I just tried to send you a PM, but you aren't accepting them. Just wanted to let you know...
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 10:57:40 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2473
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
If you don’t mind, I’m going to put your 1 John 5:1 verse out in ESV so FG, Ode, rwe, and mc can get the sense of the Greek verb tense:
1 John 5:1 “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whomever has been born of him.”
I'll check the tense, but 6 other translations say "is" and one says "will be".
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It’ll be interesting to see how the Jr. Woodchuck Interlineary Bible translates this verse. Free, why don't you give us your reference book so he'll be quiet?
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“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot
see the kingdom of God.” In other words, the only condition to salvation Jesus gives
is rebirth (rwe— NOT repentance, that’s a fruit, not a root), something totally out of
our control.
And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. Matt 22
"The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near.
Repent and believe the good news!"Mark 1
29The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas.
30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs | | |
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