|
Users viewing this topic:
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 9:44:45 AM
|
|
|
Eutychus
Posts: 2066
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
|
I struck by the obituary of George Docherty today. It's not really odd now that I thinks about it, but the man that was instrumental in having "Under God" added to the Pledge of Allegiance was an old-fashioned Calvinist.
Oh, the LINK is HERE
He recalled in an interview with The Associated Press in 2004. “I came from Scotland, where we said ‘God save our gracious queen,’ ‘God save our gracious king.’ Here was the Pledge of Allegiance, and God wasn’t in it at all.”
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 9:50:44 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
If believing in Christ only for a while is "unsuccessful", then you apparently believe that God takes back salvation when the faith fails. Is that correct?
Nope, not what I believe at all. I understand that Scripture demonstrates different types of belief.
In the case of the 2nd soil there was nothing to "take away" since they never had saving faith, though, they did "appear" to truly believe - for awhile.
The problem for you is that Jesus NEVER said they "appeared to truly believe". He plainly said they believed. That is what you deny, but that is what He said. Your interp about what is "taken away" doesn't refer to salvation (certainly no clear proof from the text), but rather the fruit or production, which clearly IS supported in the context.
quote:
But, time showed they had no root, iow, they did not have the Lord Jesus Christ who is The Root. These would be indicative of the tares Christ speaks about.
Please don't mix and match. There is nothing of tares in this parable. Stay focuses. The point is that in 3 soils we have plants that sprung up, indicative of LIFE. Yet, 2 of the plants didn't grow to maturity due to various problems. You just miss the whole point of the parable.
quote:
quote:
We know from John 5:24 that eternal life is obtained the moment that one believes, so if one believes only for a while, their eternal life is taken back, according to your pov. You need to explain HOW short term believing results in not being saved since eternal life is given the moment one believes. Just did.
Just didn't. Jesus gives eternal life the moment one believes, and the second believed. If you insist the second soil ended up not saved, can only be from a pov that God took back the eternal life that He initially gave them for their believing.
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
The concept of believing other than salvificaly is clearly taught in Scripture.
Please show me some passages that clearly and plainly teach that "believing" is ever shown to be not salvific. I've already noted "believed in vain", and noted that "in vain" means without effect, or believing in something other than Christ.
What you've "noted" is not correct or at least not complete. Again "vain" means 1. inconsiderably, without purpose, without just cause 2. in vain a. without success or effort therefore your position is in error. Perhaps you've forgotten, I've repeatedly shown you those who believed but did not savingly believe.
Can you describe what is being believed when it isn't "savingly believed"? And can you provide any verses that demonstrate what is being believed for that "faith" to not be saving faith? The Bible clearly demonstrates a faith that is not saving faith. Now, you've repeatedly said you don't agree with that, which is, of course, your prerogative.
I asked you for verses that clearly demonstrate what you are claiming, and you haven't provided any. All you do is "claim" that the Bible clearly demonstrates a faith that is not saving faith. Where are those passages that deal with a faith that does not save? To prove your pov, you need to find a passage that speaks of believing in eternal life in anyone other than Jesus Christ. Where are they?
quote:
Besides, I guess we all missed those verses which say God saves BECAUSE man believes....care to share them?
I've shared many, but John 5:24 and 6:40 are plain enough. I know you will "fault" me for the fact that neither verses uses the word "because", but the concept is clear enough.
quote:
quote:
Once more, where is the "believe" word hiding in this passage (Ezek 36:25-27)? It just isn't there, is it. You know what God says...."seek and ye shall find."
How does that answer my question of where "believe" is hiding in that passage?
quote:
quote:
You've expressed your error again. God chooses to save all who believe, or do you disagree with that? Man believes, God saves. Sure we can say "God chooses to save all who believe"...but that doesn't explain what your theology really means, now does it?
Since that is exactly what my theology "really means", your claims are baseless. All you are doing is arguing against your very own strawman.
quote:
It goes on to be unbiblical when it declares God chooses to save BECAUSE of man's belief - you've got the cart before the horse on this one.
With all the verses that plainly condition salvation, justification, forgiveness and eternal life on believing, your comment here is comical.
quote:
quote:
Apparently you just will not listen. Believing the gospel is accepting God's will and rejecting my own will, but you don't want to understand that. Oh, I'm "listening" all right...but, it does appear you are not. You just don't seem to get those parts of the Bible which declare man is "desperately wicked and deceitful above all things". You don't get that man "walked...according to the prince of the power of the air". You don't think man fulfills "the desires of the flesh and of the mind and were by nature the children of wrath". You don't think that while man was in this condition of depravity "God ...hath quickened." No need for God to quicken if you already believe and are saved. No need for God to open your eyes, ears and heart since you've already done it for yourself.
Again, you fail to understand. I fully recognize all of what you've posted. Yet, you won't accept as my pov that God opens the eyes and ears so one can understand the gospel. You just won't accept that God gave man the freedom to believe or reject. You tenaciously cling to the idea that God causes belief, but you have no support for that.
quote:
quote:
The Bible very clearly tells us it is God who decides who will be saved, and it is only believers that He has already decided who He will save. And YOU decide WHO the believers are - God doesn't.
I don't "decide who the believers are". I simply believed the gospel. As the Bible wants man to do.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 9:51:22 AM
|
|
|
HardKnox
Posts: 448
Joined: 11/6/2008
Status: offline
|
Manna,
If you don’t mind, I’m going to put your 1 John 5:1 verse out in ESV so FG, Ode, rwe, and mc can get the sense of the Greek verb tense:
1 John 5:1 “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whomever has been born of him.” It’ll be interesting to see how the Jr. Woodchuck Interlineary Bible translates this verse.
Rebirth (regeneration) first. Belief follows. Classic Eph.2:8 salvation and not an “argument” based on eisegetical presumption. Arminoids love John 3:16 only because of their impression of the word “whosoever”. I doubt they’re as comfortable with John 3:3-8, though. Jesus puts regeneration first, clearly: [v.3] “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” In other words, the only condition to salvation Jesus gives is rebirth (rwe— NOT repentance, that’s a fruit, not a root), something totally out of our control. (mcleod: That means we can’t give birth to ourselves. I don’t even see how FG can make that work, but he’ll not disappoint me. If he hasn’t proven anything, he’s proven that his POV has plenty of elasticity.) Verse 5: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. [v.6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” In other words, don’t get them mixed up, which is the sole basis for the humanistic argument, an admix of flesh and spirit. Lesson one in hermeneutic, “Keep flesh and spirit separate.” [v.7] “Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' [v.8] The wind (pneuma) blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit (Pneumatos).” So much for altar calls.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 9:59:38 AM
|
|
|
HardKnox
Posts: 448
Joined: 11/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
Since he does, what does he think is false in my gospel, which is exactly the same as what Paul claimed that he preached to the Corinthians in 1 Cor 15:1-4?
In fact, what Paul preached to those in Corinth during his first missionary journey there was this: "Christ died for our sins", as he notes in v.3.
So, Hnox, how could Paul look a crowd of strangers in the eye and claim that Christ died for our sins, given your pov that Christ didn't die for the sins of everyone?
Do you have an explanation?
Simple. Verse one, “brethren”. Next. BTW, FG, it isn’t enough to identify the Gospel by the supply of grace alone and Paul isn’t stuck there. The whole Gospel includes how it is applied as well and Paul has much to say about that as well. The supply of grace is not the direct issue here, though I think we may differ on that as well, i.e. limited vs universal atonement. The direct issue is application, how does Christ apply salvation. Truncating the argument is a game, not debate.
BTW, there's a "K" in my moniker. Try not to forget it, please. Thankee! 
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 10:02:18 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
God did reveal Himself in creation and man is accountable and without excuse. I have always said this because this is what Paul says in Romans 1. Your conjecture is that some respond positively to this revelation by seeking God, which Romans 1 says nothing about – mere conjecture.
The conjecture is eliminated by the life of Cornelius.
quote:
quote:
quote:
I don’t think he meant “seeking God” at all. What is the appropriate response to seeing and knowing God? It is loving Him with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and loving your neighbor as yourself. This is the only appropriate response to God.
You keep going to the 'end result', when I'm talking about initial response.
For the second time, I am not “going to the ‘end result’” I am speaking about the initial response. The “initial response” of all men to the revelation of God found in creation is sinful – he does not honor God or give thanks, and his behavior proves this true.
In spite of the example of Cornelius.
quote:
He does not love God with all of his heart, mind, soul and strength and he does not love his neighbor as himself. This is the initial response to God’s revelation of Himself found in creation and it is why Paul says that all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God.
No it isn't. The response from Romans 1 is to recognize God as God and to be thankful, which Cornelius clearly was.
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Your theory still has no foundation. Paul does not say "seeking God," but "honor God."
But, it should be clear to you that seeking God after He reveals himself is honoring Him as God.
Whether that is true or not is not the point.
It is not only true, but it IS the point. You just won't even consider it, because it contradicts your theology.
Nice try, but I’ll repeat myself. I won’t consider it because it is not in the Bible. You have not shown that it is and cannot show that it is.
Here is what is IN the Bible. Romans 1 says that God reveals Himself to everyone, and no one has any excuse for not recognizing Him as God and being thankful.
Acts 10 demonstrates an unbeliever who DID recognize God as God and was thankful.
quote:
quote:
What you want to deny is that to be without excuse means being able to. You just won't have that, will you.
I have always and consistently said that natural man is without excuse because he has the faculties needed to obey (he has the heart, the mind, the power of will, etc.) but he has no desire to honor God and give thanks; he has no ultimate desire to love God and love others. Based upon these deep seated desires that go contrary to the desires of God he is unable. Thus, man has no excuse and yet, because of his unwillingness, is unable.
Unwillingness is a choice, which eliminates being "unable". You are wrong. If you are able but unwilling, you are still able. If you are unable, you are also not accountable. But since we are accountable, we are able.
quote:
quote:
quote:
This is the point that the apostle has made; not that some seek God.
He didn't have to. That point is made in Acts 17:27.
Paul’s point in Acts 17:27 was not that some seek God. You speculate that he did, but you can’t find it there either.
The point of Acts 17:27 is that man was created for that purpose. So, man is ABLE to do so, and is accountable for not doing so.
quote:
Here is what is really silent in the Bible. Any notion that God causes man to believe the Bible, and that He chose who would believe.
Making this claim does not prove that anyone seeks God based upon the revelation of God found in creation alone. Your theory has no foundation whatsoever.
My pov has much more support than yours.
quote:
quote:
Cornelius was motivated by his knowledge that God existed as Creator of the universe and he began to seek Him. That is so obvious.
Based upon speculation alone.
That is your opinion which is necessary to defend your pov.
quote:
quote:
OK. There is nothing in my pov that contradicts anything in Scripture.
Great argument  . What you say is true because you choose it to be true  .
No. If there is anything in my pov that contradicts anything in Scripture, it should be easy to prove me wrong. I'm waiting.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 10:05:59 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
quote:
KJ, how do you grow? Just wait around for God to do it to you? How?
Of course not.
It is me that eats the food but I still blame my wife for being a great cook and I know God gave her to me.
She might as well just shove the stuff down my throat.
In the context of spiritual growth your response is a cop out.
Let me ask it plainly. Does God expect anything from you in regards to your own spiritual growth?
Or, do you think from your pov that God alone determines who will and who will not grow spiritually?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 10:06:06 AM
|
|
|
TheosCentric
Posts: 2036
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
Man, it's hard to follow so many posts after being gone eating Mom's home-cooking.
Anyways, got back and had the following in my mailbox regarding where the origin of our faith comes from. I'll just post the verses.
(Eze 36:26 ESV) And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
(Eze 36:27 ESV) And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
(Mat 11:26 ESV) yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
(Mat 11:27 ESV) All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
(Joh 6:44 ESV) No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
(Joh 6:45 ESV) It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--
(Joh 6:64 ESV) But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
(Joh 6:65 ESV) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
(Act 5:31 ESV) God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
(Act 13:48 ESV) And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
(Act 16:14 ESV) One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.
(Php 1:29 ESV) For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,
(2Ti 2:25 ESV) correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
(2Ti 2:26 ESV) and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
(1Co 2:4 ESV) and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
(1Co 2:5 ESV) that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
(Php 1:6 ESV) And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
(Eph 1:3 ESV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
(Eph 1:4 ESV) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
(Mat 11:25 ESV) At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;
This is a repost since it got overlooked. Let's not overlook scripture, please.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 10:13:49 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
quote:
Since he does, what does he think is false in my gospel, which is exactly the same as what Paul claimed that he preached to the Corinthians in 1 Cor 15:1-4?
In fact, what Paul preached to those in Corinth during his first missionary journey there was this: "Christ died for our sins", as he notes in v.3.
So, Hnox, how could Paul look a crowd of strangers in the eye and claim that Christ died for our sins, given your pov that Christ didn't die for the sins of everyone?
Do you have an explanation?
Simple. Verse one, “brethren”.
Yes, it seems simple, but "brethren" doesn't address the question, nor provide any answer, unless you would add some explanation. Paul is cleraly speaking to those who believed his message initially.
What you have ducked is my point of what Paul told that initial crowd of unbelievers. "Christ died for our sins." How could he do that if Christ hadn't died for everyone's? You have yet to explain your pov.
quote:
Next. BTW, FG, it isn’t enough to identify the Gospel by the supply of grace alone and Paul isn’t stuck there. The whole Gospel includes how it is applied as well and Paul has much to say about that as well. The supply of grace is not the direct issue here, though I think we may differ on that as well, i.e. limited vs universal atonement. The direct issue is application, how does Christ apply salvation. Truncating the argument is a game, not debate.
There is no game on my side. The question is very legitimate. Why did Paul tell that inital crowd in Cornith that "Christ died for our sins" if He hadn't died for everyone's sins?
quote:
BTW, there's a "K" in my moniker. Try not to forget it, please. Thankee!
By gollee, there it is. 
btw, just curious, do you pronounce the "k", or knot?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 10:16:35 AM
|
|
|
HardKnox
Posts: 448
Joined: 11/6/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
There is no game on my side. The question is very legitimate. Why did Paul tell that inital crowd in Cornith that "Christ died for our sins" if He hadn't died for everyone's sins?
Because Christ died for their sins. Simple. Next.
quote:
btw, just curious, do you pronounce the "k", or knot?
I never pronounce it. I just quietly type it.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 10:49:10 AM
|
|
|
mcleod
Posts: 1068
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
quote:
WADR, KJ, you have no way of knowing whether you recognized your own sin or God made you recognize it because you were specially chosen.
Believe me, I know it. I thank Him for it.
Again......100%
The sin or chosen?
This seems to be a typical answer I have notice from certain people in this thread.
They know they are the chosen ones, mc.
How they know, they don't really know.........because repentance starts in the mind
of the sinner, whether God caused it or they realized their own condition.
You see, its not a matter of "who gets the credit" (even though Abraham's faith
was credited to HIM as righteousness - no mention of faith being a gift of God).
Its a matter of whether one understands man has a role to play in his own salvation.
Salvation is conditioned upon repentance and faith - this is the simple gospel message.
Did Christ die for all sinners................or just some select ones?
Does God desire all men to be saved..........or just a few?
Does God command all men everywhere to repent...........or just a few?
Did God send his son that whosoever believes will be saved.............or just a few?
I'll tell you, there are verses that seem to say yes, just a few chosen ones,
and there are verses that say Christ died for all who will believe.
Election is a biblical doctrine, but they cannot provide one example of a
person saved because they were chosen for salvation only - not for a
special purpose, too.
Amen and a halluiah on those words. It is why Paul wrote about the renewing of the mind everyday of the week not just one day, but everyday. Eph.4:20-28
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 10:50:58 AM
|
|
|
umcbee
Posts: 1781
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
Man, it's hard to follow so many posts after being gone eating Mom's home-cooking.
Anyways, got back and had the following in my mailbox regarding where the origin of our faith comes from. I'll just post the verses.
(1Co 2:5 ESV) that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
This is a repost since it got overlooked. Let's not overlook scripture, please.
This is the only verse in all those you posted that even contained the word faith . It states where one's faith should rest ; it in no way says where faith comes from .
Neither do any of the other verses you quoted tell us where the origin of our faith comes from .
And don't tell that faith and believe mean the same thing , they are two different words in the Greek , with two different meanings .
I didn't overlook your post the first time : there was simply nothing in it concerning the origin of one's faith ; so there was really nothing to respond too .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 10:58:10 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
quote:
There is no game on my side. The question is very legitimate. Why did Paul tell that inital crowd in Cornith that "Christ died for our sins" if He hadn't died for everyone's sins?
Because Christ died for their sins. Simple. Next.
Not so fast. His gospel message was "Christ died for our sins". That's exactly what he reveiwed with them, and what he said he preached. So, as a travelling evangelist, that was his message.
Please deal with the issue created by his phrase "for our sins", since he preached where Christ wasn't known.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 10:59:26 AM
|
|
|
TheosCentric
Posts: 2036
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
Man, it's hard to follow so many posts after being gone eating Mom's home-cooking.
Anyways, got back and had the following in my mailbox regarding where the origin of our faith comes from. I'll just post the verses.
(1Co 2:5 ESV) that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
This is a repost since it got overlooked. Let's not overlook scripture, please.
This is the only verse in all those you posted that even contained the word faith . It states where one's faith should rest ; it in no way says where faith comes from .
Neither do any of the other verses you quoted tell us where the origin of our faith comes from .
And don't tell that faith and believe mean the same thing , they are two different words in the Greek , with two different meanings .
I didn't overlook your post the first time : there was simply nothing in it concerning the origin of one's faith ; so there was really nothing to respond too .
Believe is the verb form of faith, but we have no verb form of faith in the English language. If we did, it would be "faithing" as my pastor so puts it.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 11:03:50 AM
|
|
|
Odeliya
Posts: 2485
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
It came from the pulpit and by a preacher I have a high regard for. And nobody in the congregation passed out from his explanation and, yes, it was less "polite" than a generic word for men's "unmentionables" - and it was also here in the very conservative Bible Belt.
Eutychus,
There is nothing wrong in using a biblical word and giving an explanation of it meaning -or even casually joking about undies, but not saying "your underwear, Eutychus (or your filthy rags, to a woman, for that matter ) is showing"
I know you are a wonderful godly man, but am very disappointed in your latest comments on this thread.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 11:07:32 AM
|
|
|
Odeliya
Posts: 2485
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
I struck by the obituary of George Docherty today. It's not really odd now that I thinks about it, but the man that was instrumental in having "Under God" added to the Pledge of Allegiance was an old-fashioned Calvinist.
Oh, the LINK is HERE
He recalled in an interview with The Associated Press in 2004. “I came from Scotland, where we said ‘God save our gracious queen,’ ‘God save our gracious king.’ Here was the Pledge of Allegiance, and God wasn’t in it at all.”
Maybe i was unfair to you in my previous post.
This is a wonderful addition to the debate. Sounds like he was a great man.
RIP.
There surely are many nice, godly Calvinists.
And appreciate another support of my strong conviction - C or A theology is not important in making a decent Christian. That doesnt affect ones Spiritual maturity level. Look - this man Docherty was a calvinist, but a very good christian.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 11:16:30 AM
|
|
|
Odeliya
Posts: 2485
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
Tell Ode I wish I could respond to her post, but I promised her already I wouldn’t respond to any of her posts after she asked me so lovingly not to. ‘Course, if I did respond to her, which I wouldn’t want to offend her by doing it, I’d tell her that being plucky and defending the Gospel from innovators goes all the way back to Paul. You see, the really loving thing to do for sinners is not to let a watered down Gospel go by without attacking it full force. Watered down Gospels don’t save and those who listen to them wind up in hell. So, as one person who really, lovingly doesn’t like to think about souls in eternal hell, I lovingly (for their sakes) attack false Gospels, so they can be saved. If that offends the preachers of false Gospels, tough. They shouldn’t be tampering with it in the first place. Lives depend on the integrity of the Gospel. Thanks.
I read you posts, my brother. I just dont see any benefits in our ( mine and ours) debate.
If you think that FWillers on this thread think that answered altar calls means one is saved, you are wrong for nobody here thinks that.
And another - you are a rascal.
I am saying that in good faith and love, to prevent you from getting into trouble. I want you to stay, even you are mean at times. You are smart and honest, i like that quality in people.
You just implied that non calvinists preach different gospel that doesnt save and end people in hell.
There are many noncalvinists here on these forums. Not only you offend them , but, by questioning there salvation status you are violating the rules of the forum. Please, do stop it.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 11:19:23 AM
|
|
|
Eutychus
Posts: 2066
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
It came from the pulpit and by a preacher I have a high regard for. And nobody in the congregation passed out from his explanation and, yes, it was less "polite" than a generic word for men's "unmentionables" - and it was also here in the very conservative Bible Belt.
Eutychus,
There is nothing wrong in using a biblical word and giving an explanation of it meaning -or even casually joking about undies, but not saying "your underwear, Eutychus (or your filthy rags, to a woman, for that matter ) is showing"
I know you are a wonderful godly man, but am very disappointed in your latest comments on this thread.
Odeliya, all I can think of is that there must be a cultural difference that is causing a serious misunderstanding. Perhaps, it's a generation thing, I don't know. But that expression doesn't have any awful hidden meaning in the US and there's no evil or unsavory meaning intended.
Perhaps, this is something like saying, "you're drinking the koolaid," which has a horrific meaning to people old enough to remember 1978 as an adult but seems to be somewhat humorous to some younger people that don't understand its sinister origin.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 11:24:44 AM
|
|
|
Odeliya
Posts: 2485
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
|
Appreciate the explanation, Euty, and gladly believe you.
If that is the case wish someone was kind enough to explain it to me yesterday instead of making the mean comments.
We can safely close the issue now :)
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 11:39:24 AM
|
|
|
Odeliya
Posts: 2485
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
O:i am however grateful to you for your posts really support my strong conviction that being a Calvinist or Arminian is not important for spiritual growth of a believer. It doesn’t help a person to become a better Christian; C or A or any variation of it doesn’t affect our spiritual maturity at all!
Nasty and mean people remain such even after conversion to Calvinism or Arminianism, etc. Being Calvinist, etc doesnt change their bad behaivor.
KJ:
That is exactly what Calvinoids (Hey......I like kinda that name ) have been saying for 256 pages.
That is wonderful , KJ! Honestly, I only saw you and SH, if i understood his last post to me right, admitting that being a calvinist by itself doesnt affect the spiritual growth
quote:
Your post shows the futility of mere men.People are unable. Total inability.God is what makes believers and God is what grows them Spiritually.
....
If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
And this;
My dear children, I'm writing this to you so that you will not sin. Yet, if anyone does sin, we have Jesus Christ, who has God's full approval. He speaks on our behalf when we come into the presence of the Father.
Sure. By ourselves we can neither save ourselves no become better Chirstians. Nothing.
But why does that deny free will? FW doesnt say we are able to save ourselves!
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 11:44:04 AM
|
|
|
mcleod
Posts: 1068
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
All this being said, I ministered a part of the gospel to one of my employees
a few weeks back and the responses to a few simple questions I got
revealed a person totally clueless about right and wrong and where
morality comes from.
This is what I fear is happening to our society today. Because we become a people of what some would call tribe mentality.
Which means we think of ourselves and not of others. When Jesus the creator of everything and with his Father responsibile for our guide lines. Speak to us of not being about ourselves. Yet looking out for the needs of others.
Which I learned from my past,and my Dad a being a great exsample to follow. We would go to great lenghts that after hiring individuals seeing that they also knew of a God who actual loved them and care for them. Not everone accepted it and we didn't immediately remove them from their job. But we keep showing them God's love through us.
The person whom I took this quote from I am not trying to find fault in you. For you did make a move to have a discussion to the indiviual about a change of heart.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 11:50:38 AM
|
|
|
HardKnox
Posts: 448
Joined: 11/6/2008
Status: offline
|
FG,
quote:
Not so fast. His gospel message was "Christ died for our sins". That's exactly what he reveiwed with them, and what he said he preached. So, as a travelling evangelist, that was his message.
Please deal with the issue created by his phrase "for our sins", since he preached where Christ wasn't known.
He doesn’t tell us what pronoun he used when he was preaching to the whole crowd, FG, and I don’t play the speculation game you build your pov on. “for our sins” is addressed to the Church in Corinth. Those who were “in the crowd” are now in the church and are brethren and are “ours” now. There’s no Whole World in the word “our” outside of the Jr. Woodchuck, sorry. As many of the general population of Corinth as were appointed unto eternal life believed, as in Antioch Pisidia. Next!
Umcbee,
quote:
And don't tell that faith and believe mean the same thing , they are two different words in the Greek , with two different meanings .
The only difference in meaning is that one believe has action involved whereas faith gives name to that from which the action proceeds. Other than that, “faith” and “believe” are as intimately connected in definition as “run” and “runner”. Now, forget about “mention of faith” and try reading Theos’s passages again, why don’tcha? See if you see “ability” in them. Here, I’ll help you with the first one:
(Eze 36:26 ESV) And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
See any self-surgery going on here? Who’s removing the stone and putting in the flesh? The patient or the Physician? See how easy it is? Now, you try the next one....
Rwe,
Please tell your friend, Ode, I have no idea how to deal with her. She won’t let me talk to her, but keeps talking to me.  Reminds me of my sister when I was young. Dad told us he’d kill us if we ever hit her, so she hit me repeatedly trying to get me to hit back so I’d get in trouble. I never did, though, and I won’t now. But it would’ve been nice if my sister had just left me alone. Tell her I’m not attacking non-Calvinists though, I’m attacking false Gospels that teach human ability and condition, clearly condemned by Paul in the book of Galatians, so, unless this forum has changed to another Bible while I was asleep, I’m way inside its TOS and intend to stay there, but thank her anyway for her concern to my mean ole self.
< Message edited by HardKnox -- 12/2/2008 11:57:45 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/2/2008 12:36:51 PM
|
|
|
HardKnox
Posts: 448
Joined: 11/6/2008
Status: offline
|
Mark 5:1-20. Arminoids! Achtung! How in the world do you deal with this (and other passages of demon possession.) Why do demons get to violate human freedom, but God can’t?
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
