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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 12:16:57 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2485
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Hardknox, i warn you:
I wont tolerate the talk about mens underwear and other unmentionables on this thread.
I am giving you 24 hous to delete the immodest, improper comment by editing your post.
I will delete my post as well after i see your complying with my request.
Thank you.
I presume substituting "underwear" for "socks" is as good as you can do ? you clearly did not comply with my request.
Is that the best of your ability ?
If yes, well.. i guess that is what can be expected. Thanks. Better then nothing.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 12:26:23 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 2066
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace opined:
quote:
Euty wrote:
Well, scripture describes all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. Rags as soaked with putrefied pus from an unclean leper open sores. Well, actually, that is not what the Hebrew indicates re: filthy rags. But, let's keep this thread as dignified as we can. 
I appreciate your deep knowledge of biblical definition, but all I had to go on are Bible scholars like Matthew Henry, who wrote:
We are all as an unclean thing, or as an unclean person, as one overspread with a leprosy, who was to be shut out of the camp. The body of the people were like one under a ceremonial pollution, who was not admitted into the courts of the tabernacle, or like one labouring under some loathsome disease, from the crown of the head to the sole of the foot nothing but wounds and bruises, ch. 1:6. We have all by sin become not only obnoxious to God’s justice, but odious to his holiness; for sin is that abominable thing which the Lord hates, and cannot endure to look upon. Even all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. (1.) "The best of our persons are so; we are all so corrupt and polluted that even those among us who pass for righteous men, in comparison with what our fathers were who rejoiced and wrought righteousness (v. 5), are but as filthy rags, fit to be case to the dunghill. The best of them is as a brier.’’ (2.) "The best of our performances are so. There is not only a general corruption of manners, but a general defection in the exercises of devotion too; those which pass for the sacrifices of righteousness, when they come to be enquired into, are the torn, and the lame, and the sick, and therefore are provoking to God, as nauseous as filthy rags.’’ Our performances, though they be ever so plausible, if we depend upon them as our righteousness and think to merit by them at God’s hand, are as filthy rags—rags, and will not cover us—filthy rags, and will but defile us.
(Isaiah 64:6)
But I won't haggle over the specific use Isaiah intended, the meaning is clear: we aren't kinda depraved, we are totally depraved prior to being born again - and afterwards only through Christ plus nothing.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 12:38:50 PM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
Joined: 11/6/2008
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Euty,
For once, FG is right. The Hebrew term "filthy rags" is unmentionable, especially with Ode lurking around policing my posts. She obviously has never seen how offensive a pair of chartreuse argyle socks can be.
Here's something everybody can chew on (there's nothing offensive in it that I know of):
The Thomistic view that Reason and the Arminian view that Volition were relatively untouched by the Fall remained fairly intact within the Roman Catholic and Anglican churches through most of the Reformation period while Calvinism/Augustinianism (the former doctrine of the RCC before reforming under Thomas Aquinas doctrines) reigned for 300 solid years. It only took on slight modifications in the 18th and early 19th centuries under Quakerism and fringe groups such as Mennonite and Amish. Arminianism began to fractionalize drastically in the late 19th century under American revivalism (led by the teaching of John Wesley ala Charles Finney) and industrialization which gave rise to modern individualism. Individualism lent itself easily to the teachings of Kant ala Friedrich Daniel Ernst Schleiermacher, the concept that religion is predominantly realized through human experience. The focus of evangelism shifted from the power of God in salvation in the Gospel to the power vested in the persuasive method of the evangelist. The proof of the evangelist was the immediate results of his preaching, displayed in the “altar call”. The “altar call” or “invitation” rested on a co-operative effort of the evangelist’s charisma and the hearer’s response to his persuasion and the ambiance of the meeting. This has been a leading idea behind evangelism throughout the 20th century and into the present one.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 1:49:21 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2036
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace opined:
quote:
Euty wrote:
Well, scripture describes all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. Rags as soaked with putrefied pus from an unclean leper open sores. Well, actually, that is not what the Hebrew indicates re: filthy rags. But, let's keep this thread as dignified as we can.
I appreciate your deep knowledge of biblical definition, but all I had to go on are Bible scholars like Matthew Henry, who wrote:
We are all as an unclean thing, or as an unclean person, as one overspread with a leprosy, who was to be shut out of the camp. The body of the people were like one under a ceremonial pollution, who was not admitted into the courts of the tabernacle, or like one labouring under some loathsome disease, from the crown of the head to the sole of the foot nothing but wounds and bruises, ch. 1:6. We have all by sin become not only obnoxious to God’s justice, but odious to his holiness; for sin is that abominable thing which the Lord hates, and cannot endure to look upon. Even all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. (1.) "The best of our persons are so; we are all so corrupt and polluted that even those among us who pass for righteous men, in comparison with what our fathers were who rejoiced and wrought righteousness (v. 5), are but as filthy rags, fit to be case to the dunghill. The best of them is as a brier.’’ (2.) "The best of our performances are so. There is not only a general corruption of manners, but a general defection in the exercises of devotion too; those which pass for the sacrifices of righteousness, when they come to be enquired into, are the torn, and the lame, and the sick, and therefore are provoking to God, as nauseous as filthy rags.’’ Our performances, though they be ever so plausible, if we depend upon them as our righteousness and think to merit by them at God’s hand, are as filthy rags—rags, and will not cover us—filthy rags, and will but defile us.
(Isaiah 64:6)
But I won't haggle over the specific use Isaiah intended, the meaning is clear: we aren't kinda depraved, we are totally depraved prior to being born again - and afterwards only through Christ plus nothing.
I would go with Mark Driscoll's version of filthy rags, but that might even be more unmentionable than argyle socks.
P.S. Trust me, no one really wants to go there.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 2:15:53 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2485
Joined: 8/10/2005
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I left it at that, hardknox, not because your "socks" substitute was any better – but because it became clear that asking for politeness from you would be , for the lack of better word, unrealistic.
I am however grateful to you for your posts really support my strong conviction that being a Calvinist or Arminian is not important for spiritual growth of a believer . It doesn’t help a person to become a better Christian; C or A or any variation of it doesn’t affect our spiritual maturity at all!
Nasty and mean people remain such even after conversion to Calvinism or Arminianism, etc. Being Calvinist, etc doesnt change their bad behaivor.
Your posts reveal more truth about you then about those terrible, wordly, humanistic , heretical anticalvinists that make you so angry and upset.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 2:30:58 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 2066
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
Euty,
For once, FG is right. The Hebrew term "filthy rags" is unmentionable, especially with Ode lurking around policing my posts. She obviously has never seen how offensive a pair of chartreuse argyle socks can be.
I've heard both descriptions, now that you mention it. It came from the pulpit and by a preacher I have a high regard for. And nobody in the congregation passed out from his explanation and, yes, it was less "polite" than a generic word for men's "unmentionables" - and it was also here in the very conservative Bible Belt.
quote:
Here's something everybody can chew on (there's nothing offensive in it that I know of):
The Thomistic view that Reason and the Arminian view that Volition were relatively untouched by the Fall remained fairly intact within the Roman Catholic and Anglican churches through most of the Reformation period while Calvinism/Augustinianism (the former doctrine of the RCC before reforming under Thomas Aquinas doctrines) reigned for 300 solid years. It only took on slight modifications in the 18th and early 19th centuries under Quakerism and fringe groups such as Mennonite and Amish. Arminianism began to fractionalize drastically in the late 19th century under American revivalism (led by the teaching of John Wesley ala Charles Finney) and industrialization which gave rise to modern individualism. Individualism lent itself easily to the teachings of Kant ala Friedrich Daniel Ernst Schleiermacher, the concept that religion is predominantly realized through human experience. The focus of evangelism shifted from the power of God in salvation in the Gospel to the power vested in the persuasive method of the evangelist. The proof of the evangelist was the immediate results of his preaching, displayed in the “altar call”. The “altar call” or “invitation” rested on a co-operative effort of the evangelist’s charisma and the hearer’s response to his persuasion and the ambiance of the meeting. This has been a leading idea behind evangelism throughout the 20th century and into the present one.
I've known my share of mediocre "evangelists" that, when few or none came forward after a sermon, inserted stories about people resisting his compelling calls to the altar in the past that subsequently were hit by a Mac truck on their way to the church parking lot afterward. They also majored on trying to make everyone feel guilty for not effectively convincing others to get saved because the Gospel & the Holy Spirit didn't seem powerful enough without embellishment.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 3:25:09 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2473
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
rw, HK posted this to you:
quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
If God says, “Seek me with all you heart and all your soul” the inappropriate answer from me is, “O.K. No problem.” The appropriate answer from me is, “Lord, I cannot. Help thou mine unbelief.”
Interesting. HK acknowledges that he is able to recognize his inability to do the impossible, and willingly asks God for help. iow, he not only is able to recognize his position and function (lack thereof) but wants God to help him to do what God commands that he do.
rw, how is this materially different from what I've been saying?
Good point, Free.
Did you catch HK's admission his theology is flawed? So lets use
that as the backround for his rhetoric, OK?
But you must understand he is asking for help as a regenerated person.
What is lost on him is that intent behind a command is what's important, not
whether we are capable of perfect obedience.
Funny how it seems the regenerate are unable to obey either, even
after receiving the Holy Spirit? I don't get that, do you?
How is it that regenerate man is now "able" to do righteousness, but
his new found free will gives him the choice to obey or not?
It just seems to me the depravity thing is more about man's condition than
his ability, but hey, I'm just an "Arminiopelaginomolinoid".
(Translation, HK: I'm just plain stupid)
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 4:05:25 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2473
Status: offline
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FreeGrace,
HK said
quote:
Whatever his will is behind a command, whether for grace or for judgment,
he gets what he wants. So, if God commands me to seek him, I have no choice
but to respond to that command if his will is that I should seek.
Either I am missing something here, or this statement not only makes no biblical
sense, it is simply not true.
"Whatever his will is behind a command"? His will is for us to disobey? I don't get it.
How can God give a command and his will wouldn't be obedience?
I think all commands are given with a view toward obedience, agree?
God commands "all men everywhere to repent", so why don't they all repent -
his will isn't for all men everywhere to repent? Makes no sense.
Is it "God says so, man does (does not) so, depending on how God wills so"???
The truth is HK and all of us have been commanded by God to do many things,
but yet we do not always do them - by our own choice, not God's will.
Are we to assume he might love his "Arminioid" brothers by repenting
of his rhetoric, but only if God wills it? 
I think just as soon as he will admit that God can give a command knowing man
cannot obey it (or will not) - saved OR lost, he will be much closer to the truth.
Watcha think, FG? The lost disobey, and cannot obey, the saved disobey, but can obey?
If man cannot because God will not enable him, then how come man will not
once God says he can? Who's in charge now?
HK - don't bother posting back if its just more venomous rhetoric and name calling.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 4:15:35 PM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
Joined: 11/6/2008
Status: offline
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Euty,
quote:
I've heard both descriptions, now that you mention it. It came from the pulpit and by a preacher I have a high regard for. And nobody in the congregation passed out from his explanation and, yes, it was less "polite" than a generic word for men's "unmentionables" - and it was also here in the very conservative Bible Belt.
Egg-zackly!
quote:
I've known my share of mediocre "evangelists" that, when few or none came forward after a sermon, inserted stories about people resisting his compelling calls to the altar in the past that subsequently were hit by a Mac truck on their way to the church parking lot afterward. They also majored on trying to make everyone feel guilty for not effectively convincing others to get saved because the Gospel & the Holy Spirit didn't seem powerful enough without embellishment.
Did you here those stories, too? The funny thing is that every evangelist claimed it happened at one of his tent meetings and changed his life forever about not doing altar calls. Most of the stories I heard, though, the truck was Kentworth.
Oh, Euty, would you do me a favor. Tell Ode I wish I could respond to her post, but I promised her already I wouldn’t respond to any of her posts after she asked me so lovingly not to. ‘Course, if I did respond to her, which I wouldn’t want to offend her by doing it, I’d tell her that being plucky and defending the Gospel from innovators goes all the way back to Paul. You see, the really loving thing to do for sinners is not to let a watered down Gospel go by without attacking it full force. Watered down Gospels don’t save and those who listen to them wind up in hell. So, as one person who really, lovingly doesn’t like to think about souls in eternal hell, I lovingly (for their sakes) attack false Gospels, so they can be saved. If that offends the preachers of false Gospels, tough. They shouldn’t be tampering with it in the first place. Lives depend on the integrity of the Gospel. Thanks.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 4:17:29 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hardknox
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Hardknox
If God says, “Seek me with all you heart and all your soul” the inappropriate answer from me is, “O.K. No problem.” The appropriate answer from me is, “Lord, I cannot. Help thou mine unbelief.”
Interesting. HK acknowledges that he is able to recognize his inability to do the impossible, and willingly asks God for help. iow, he not only is able to recognize his position and function (lack thereof) but wants God to help him to do what God commands that he do.
You don't understand the power of God's command. Whatever his will is behind a command, whether for grace or for judgment, he gets what he wants. So, if God commands me to seek him, I have no choice but to respond to that command if his will is that I should seek.
Again, interesting. I think you need to read what you posted. That isn't what you said.
quote:
Homework assignment for FG: Read Psalm 29. It is the basis for the doctrine of Effectual Call.
I love that Psalm. But, what is your point? I didn't read anything about God causing anyone to believe. Deer calving, but nothing about believing or repenting.
{edited to fix quote box}
< Message edited by FreeGrace -- 12/1/2008 4:37:09 PM >
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 4:18:38 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2473
Status: offline
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HK: quote:
No. There are no tensions in the Bible.
Really?
God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for
him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us
AND
there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
AND
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard
so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and
fall from your secure position.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
AND
Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
AND
For every man shall bear his own burden.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 4:20:24 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace opined:
quote:
Euty wrote:
Well, scripture describes all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. Rags as soaked with putrefied pus from an unclean leper open sores. Well, actually, that is not what the Hebrew indicates re: filthy rags. But, let's keep this thread as dignified as we can.
I appreciate your deep knowledge of biblical definition, but all I had to go on are Bible scholars like Matthew Henry, who wrote:
We are all as an unclean thing, or as an unclean person, as one overspread with a leprosy, who was to be shut out of the camp. The body of the people were like one under a ceremonial pollution, who was not admitted into the courts of the tabernacle, or like one labouring under some loathsome disease, from the crown of the head to the sole of the foot nothing but wounds and bruises, ch. 1:6. We have all by sin become not only obnoxious to God’s justice, but odious to his holiness; for sin is that abominable thing which the Lord hates, and cannot endure to look upon. Even all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. (1.) "The best of our persons are so; we are all so corrupt and polluted that even those among us who pass for righteous men, in comparison with what our fathers were who rejoiced and wrought righteousness (v. 5), are but as filthy rags, fit to be case to the dunghill. The best of them is as a brier.’’ (2.) "The best of our performances are so. There is not only a general corruption of manners, but a general defection in the exercises of devotion too; those which pass for the sacrifices of righteousness, when they come to be enquired into, are the torn, and the lame, and the sick, and therefore are provoking to God, as nauseous as filthy rags.’’ Our performances, though they be ever so plausible, if we depend upon them as our righteousness and think to merit by them at God’s hand, are as filthy rags—rags, and will not cover us—filthy rags, and will but defile us.
(Isaiah 64:6)
But I won't haggle over the specific use Isaiah intended, the meaning is clear: we aren't kinda depraved, we are totally depraved prior to being born again - and afterwards only through Christ plus nothing.
I've never argued anything less than 100% myself, just for the record. Seems you were referring to rw.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 4:24:51 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
rw, HK posted this to you:
quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
If God says, “Seek me with all you heart and all your soul” the inappropriate answer from me is, “O.K. No problem.” The appropriate answer from me is, “Lord, I cannot. Help thou mine unbelief.”
Interesting. HK acknowledges that he is able to recognize his inability to do the impossible, and willingly asks God for help. iow, he not only is able to recognize his position and function (lack thereof) but wants God to help him to do what God commands that he do.
rw, how is this materially different from what I've been saying?
Good point, Free.
Did you catch HK's admission his theology is flawed? So lets use
that as the backround for his rhetoric, OK?
But you must understand he is asking for help as a regenerated person.
What is lost on him is that intent behind a command is what's important, not whether we are capable of perfect obedience.
Funny how it seems the regenerate are unable to obey either, even
after receiving the Holy Spirit? I don't get that, do you?
How is it that regenerate man is now "able" to do righteousness, but
his new found free will gives him the choice to obey or not?
It just seems to me the depravity thing is more about man's condition than
his ability, but hey, I'm just an "Arminiopelaginomolinoid".
(Translation, HK: I'm just plain stupid)
No, rw, you aren't the just plain stupid one.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 4:32:17 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
FreeGrace,
HK said
quote:
Whatever his will is behind a command, whether for grace or for judgment, he gets what he wants. So, if God commands me to seek him, I have no choice but to respond to that command if his will is that I should seek.
Either I am missing something here, or this statement not only makes no biblical sense, it is simply not true.
Correct both times.
quote:
"Whatever his will is behind a command"? His will is for us to disobey? I don't get it.
That is just one of the many things a calvinist cannot explain intelligently, because their theology doesn't have one.
quote:
How can God give a command and his will wouldn't be obedience?
I think all commands are given with a view toward obedience, agree?
Yep.
quote:
God commands "all men everywhere to repent", so why don't they all repent - his will isn't for all men everywhere to repent? Makes no sense.
They have no intelligible answer.
quote:
The truth is HK and all of us have been commanded by God to do many things, but yet we do not always do them - by our own choice, not God's will.
Their theology will not let them admit this.
quote:
Are we to assume he might love his "Arminioid" brothers by repenting of his rhetoric, but only if God wills it?
Probably. They sure have a neat system of non accountability, don't they!
quote:
I think just as soon as he will admit that God can give a command knowing man cannot obey it (or will not) - saved OR lost, he will be much closer to the truth.
I think he has quite a ways to go, rw.
quote:
Watcha think, FG? The lost disobey, and cannot obey, the saved disobey, but can obey? If man cannot because God will not enable him, then how come man will not once God says he can? Who's in charge now?
Great questions. I imagine that Hnox will give you some snippy retort rather than actually engage the issue.
quote:
HK - don't bother posting back if its just more venomous rhetoric and name calling.
rw, I assume you know that you just gave Hnox a choice. Do you think he'll be able to recognize it?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 4:47:29 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
WADR, KJ, you have no way of knowing whether you recognized your own sin or God made you recognize it because you were specially chosen.
Believe me, I know it. I thank Him for it.
Again......100%
The sin or chosen?
This seems to be a typical answer I have notice from certain people in this thread.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 5:10:58 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
My weakness. That is what I will preach to you. I could never repent unless He caused me to. I will preach to you of His awesome power in my life and my total weakness.
I still stick with the numbers. 100% my weakness and 100% His power.
You would really love to see a 20%-80% , 10%-90%......or a 50%-50% out of me?
I have this feeling that all the other Reformed Calvies on this thread will give you the same numbers on their ability and power to repent and His power and ability in causing them to repent.
100% His power and 100% their weakness.
I dont think they feel like preaching about their ability and power in that regard.
So if it is God through you. If you happen to treat someone unkind is it God, or you, who has caused this crime?
This is from some one will say that God has control in their daily walk in life. And I have meet quite a few who believe in this theory. Yet when having their life put up for a display, for the world to see a difference. Like what Jesus taught; "let your light shine before humans . So that they (world)may see you good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
I would think this would not include going to a building, weekly to be worshipful.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 5:40:06 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
Your admonition is not taken. I have not accused persons of being in another camp, but Christians do borrow from the world and if you don’t think so, you need to turn your radio on to any given contemporary Christian music station.
What are you thinking.... let see first God controls everything about his chosen. You seem to think that,..right? Then what is this slam on contemporary christian music? It must mean in your mind, God lost that issue and gave it to the evil one.
One ,more thing this issue(music) has gone on forever in christian circles.
Just think some of those great songs of the past which are probably sitting in front of in your sunday gathering. The music, not the lyrics, but the music came from those great pubs.
Like the psalmist wrote everthing was created by God and for God. Just as the words that come out your mouth can either be for evil or good.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 6:21:37 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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Here is something you can choose to do;
Finally brothers, what is true, what is noble, what is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable---if anything is excellent or praiseworthy---think about such things. Whatever you have learned or recieved from me (Paul) or seen in me----put into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.
If I read this correctly, Paul is writing to certain people and telling them to choose their thought patterns.
Or you can wait to see if God will change you.
I can see it now in front of the almighty. But God you didn't get those evil thoughts out of my mind. I thought you had chosen me and I'd sit back and do nothing. Because you know Paul wrote that it is not by works but by grace. And I was just testing your grace.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 6:29:03 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8251
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Here is something you can choose to do;
Finally brothers, what is true, what is noble, what is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable---if anything is excellent or praiseworthy---think about such things. Whatever you have learned or recieved from me (Paul) or seen in me----put into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.
If I read this correctly, Paul is writing to certain people and telling them to choose their thought patterns.
Or you can wait to see if God will change you.
I can see it now in front of the almighty. But God you didn't get those evil thoughts out of my mind. I thought you had chosen me and I'd sit back and do nothing. Because you know Paul wrote that it is not by works but by grace. And I was just testing your grace.
This is another of the things that calvinists cannot provide a reasonable answer for: God causes everything including our thoughts. They can't explain why or how we sin.
Their view of spiritual growth is that God determines whether one does or not. Oh, wait. If one doesn't grow, that must mean they really weren't saved in the first place. So, they can just sit back and wait for the sprouts to sprout, since God controls everything.
yeah.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 6:40:54 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Here is something you can choose to do;
Finally brothers, what is true, what is noble, what is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable---if anything is excellent or praiseworthy---think about such things. Whatever you have learned or recieved from me (Paul) or seen in me----put into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.
If I read this correctly, Paul is writing to certain people and telling them to choose their thought patterns.
Or you can wait to see if God will change you.
I can see it now in front of the almighty. But God you didn't get those evil thoughts out of my mind. I thought you had chosen me and I'd sit back and do nothing. Because you know Paul wrote that it is not by works but by grace. And I was just testing your grace.
This is another of the things that calvinists cannot provide a reasonable answer for: God causes everything including our thoughts. They can't explain why or how we sin.
Their view of spiritual growth is that God determines whether one does or not. Oh, wait. If one doesn't grow, that must mean they really weren't saved in the first place. So, they can just sit back and wait for the sprouts to sprout, since God controls everything.
yeah.
So who's acid kool-aid is the worst?
Chose or let the world go to hell.
I would rather try to help someone in need then to say them good luck and hope God will start loving you. Because I am waiting for him to change my mind.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 6:41:05 PM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
Joined: 11/6/2008
Status: offline
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FG and rwe (if you’re listening),
Ooo. I must have hit a nerve. Is it possible you guys see that the origin of your doctrine is not scripture but worldly philosophy? I’ve just given a skim off the top of my noggin’. I can certainly expand on that theme if you like.
quote:
Did you catch HK's admission his theology is flawed? So lets use
that as the backround for his rhetoric, OK?
Playing the FG game now, ay, rwe? I’m disappointed. I thought better of you than that. You ask me if I think my theology could be flawed because I’m a sinner (saved by grace) and then use it against me. That’s low.
quote:
But you must understand he is asking for help as a regenerated person.
“As you received him, so walk ye in him.” We received him by grace through faith, we walk the same way. 10 million years from now, rw, (when you agree that I’m at least mostly right on the Gospel) you and I will still be upheld 100% by God for our life, existence, and faithfulness. Unregenerate and coming to salvation or regenerate and working out salvation, we are totally dependent on the power of God.
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What is lost on him is that intent behind a command is what's important, not
whether we are capable of perfect obedience.
Intent is revealed in results. If God commands and man disobeys, it is God’s intent to show his power in them by destroying them. Romans 9:17 (Notice how I go to scripture and not just give off my opinions?) “For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.” Romans 9:22 “What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:”
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Funny how it seems the regenerate are unable to obey either, even
after receiving the Holy Spirit? I don't get that, do you?
You don’t think we believe the regenerate receive the Holy Spirit? Where do you think we’ve been telling you for thousands of posts where the power comes from? What kind of nonsense are you trying to pull?
quote:
How is it that regenerate man is now "able" to do righteousness, but
his new found free will gives him the choice to obey or not?
This is where you are planting your pov on us. Non sequitur.
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It just seems to me the depravity thing is more about man's condition than
his ability, but hey, I'm just an "Arminiopelaginomolinoid".
(Translation, HK: I'm just plain stupid)
I keep hearing, “It seems to me...” You might develop your doctrine better if you stuck to scripture.
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Either I am missing something here, or this statement not only makes no biblical
sense, it is simply not true.
"Whatever his will is behind a command"? His will is for us to disobey? I don't get it.
How can God give a command and his will wouldn't be obedience?
I think all commands are given with a view toward obedience, agree?
God commands "all men everywhere to repent", so why don't they all repent -
his will isn't for all men everywhere to repent? Makes no sense.
It makes no sense to me that one would hold a doctrine in which the Sovereign of the Universe does not get what he wants, but we do. So, who’s running the universe? Maybe what you call “making no sense” is the actions of a Being who is infinitely superior to you, or, as Paul puts it, “Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?” Romans 9:19-20
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Is it "God says so, man does (does not) so, depending on how God wills so"???
See previous verse, O man.
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The truth is HK and all of us have been commanded by God to do many things,
but yet we do not always do them - by our own choice, not God's will.
You know, I’d really like to see a verse or two that says this without your grid-glosses, imaginary abilities you read into them. Got any? Something, maybe as powerful as the passages I’ve given you that say your truth (opinion) is wrong?
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Watcha think, FG? The lost disobey, and cannot obey, the saved disobey, but can obey?
If man cannot because God will not enable him, then how come man will not
once God says he can? Who's in charge now?
Why don’t you take that up with Christ. He told Peter he would deny him [Christ] when the cock crowed. Was that Peter’s intention? Did Jesus want him to deny him? And what happened. You might reply, look how it all turned out in the end. Sure, “all things work for good to those who love him and are called according to his purposes.” What about Judas, though. (But the easy answer is that Judas is in heaven... right? The “son of perdition”?) Both sides of regeneration and what happens? God moving in accordance with his will. BTW, I don’t suppose you guys believe in demon possession, do you? God can’t touch the freewill, but O boy can the devils. Interesting.
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HK - don't bother posting back if its just more venomous rhetoric and name calling.
Grow up.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 7:23:10 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2473
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
"Whatever his will is behind a command"? His will is for us to disobey? I don't get it.
That is just one of the many things a calvinist cannot explain intelligently, because their theology doesn't have one.
Free, I have been giving this some thought, and I think there is some aspect
of truth in looking to God's will behind a command.
I see three possible motives:
1) his decretive will, which HK and other reformists see as the only
possible choice - God decrees everything, etc, etc.
But if we understand all aspects of God's will such as
2) his prescriptive will, that is what God desires or God puts forth as the ideal
(imagine that - God having a desire ) which describes a command with
a view toward obedience, a "more excellent way" if you will. Yes, God knows
we are going to disobey, but he has set standards and goals. We disobey,
but this is not Gods' will.
3) his permissive will, by which sin is allowed to occur. A command can
be given even knowing we will disobey or cannot possibly obey. He
permits us to disobey by our own choice.
Make any sense?
Example: We see the command "love the Lord with all your heart, mind,
soul and strength". Is it possible to obey this command? I think the answer
is yes -- IF we are Spirit-filled enough (but of course we will never
be able to perfectly obey it as long as we have sin).
But the reality is will we obey the command? The answer is, of course
no, for the reason given above - we are not completely Spirit-filled,
as long as there is 1% sin in us we will never be completely loving God.
So what kind of command is this? According to HK, God's will is for
us to obey it, so we will obey it. I think it is an example of God's
prescriptive will -- his desire is for us to obey. Making or forcing us
to obey proves nothing but leads us down the path of sinless perfection.
All this being said, HK could be right in that if God wants us to obey a command
of course we will obey it, but this is not the question and I don't know why
he makes a statement like this, seeing how overall we are probably more
disobedient than we are obedient.
Later.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/1/2008 7:34:06 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2473
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
quote:
WADR, KJ, you have no way of knowing w | | |
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