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RE: satan has fun in hell? - 8/18/2008 8:42:50 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 470
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
Earthless: "Satan and the demonic are not in Hell right now. Satan and the demonic will not be ruling Hell, they will be there as captives, not over-rulers."
Where are Satan and the demonic now?
Where does it say they will be captives not over-rulers?
URForgiven: "Hell will not be a home to them, it will be a place of eternal torment."
Who will torment them? Satan tormenting Satan?
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
They will torment themselves.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
Are you serious? Have we taken away the power of God's wrath and elevated the l "power' of mere angels? May I ask what lead to you to believe such a thing?
I can't be sure where URForgiven has gotten that idea but where do you get the idea that demons where ever angels?
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: satan has fun in hell? - 8/18/2008 8:47:50 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 470
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quote:
I don't mean to sound harsh but were do you get these silly idea's from?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lufia
Well sorry for been silly. To tell the truth i don't know where it's coming from ( Dante or old school teachings maybe) but i asked other people and nobody knew the answer. I'm new born christian for only 6 months and i have silly questions ...
The advice I can give you is to get in the word and read it for yourself. Don't just take the word of the pastor or anyone who is teaching you. The Holy Spirit will lead you but you have to want to be lead. I also want to say welcome to the body of Christ.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: satan has fun in hell? - 8/18/2008 9:54:14 PM
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turtleman
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Satan original name was Lucifer one of God's Archangels. However he became filled with pride and rebelled against God. In the course of his rebellion he persuaded one third of the angels to side with him. after he was beaten he was cast out of heaven and landed on Earth. As to demons punishing souls in hell I get that idea from the accounts of people who have had near death experiences and went to hell before being brought back.
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just a few simple thoughts
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RE: satan has fun in hell? - 8/18/2008 11:11:28 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 470
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quote:
ORIGINAL: turtleman
Satan original name was Lucifer one of God's Archangels. However he became filled with pride and rebelled against God. In the course of his rebellion he persuaded one third of the angels to side with him. after he was beaten he was cast out of heaven and landed on Earth. As to demons punishing souls in hell I get that idea from the accounts of people who have had near death experiences and went to hell before being brought back.
Scripture says no such thing. Not only does it not say that Lucifer is the devil, it doesn't say that he is a angel much less and Archangel. The only archangel mentioned in scripture is Micheal. Neither does it say that the devil became filled with pride and rebelled against God. It also doesn't say he persuaded any angels to come to his side.
Also please stick with what scripture says about hell and not peoples wild imaginations.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: satan has fun in hell? - 8/18/2008 11:30:30 PM
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TheBibleTRUTH
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I don't know what kind of relationship God will have with hell, but I know that there will be no tears in heaven so maybe there won't be much of a relationship between the two. What I do know is that satan and his minions will be tormented because they will have all this evil and they will not be able to use it. The ultimate culmination of sin is death, and death will be abolished so there is no evil in the third heaven and third Earth.
Think about if you were a big evil power and you couldn't do any of your evil. I'd say that is pretty tormenting.
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RE: satan has fun in hell? - 8/19/2008 12:07:12 AM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
Earthless: "Satan and the demonic are not in Hell right now. Satan and the demonic will not be ruling Hell, they will be there as captives, not over-rulers."
Where are Satan and the demonic now?
Where does it say they will be captives not over-rulers?
URForgiven: "Hell will not be a home to them, it will be a place of eternal torment."
Who will torment them? Satan tormenting Satan?
They will torment themselves.
Are you serious?Have we taken away the power of God's wrath and elevated the l"power' of mere angels?May I ask what lead to you to believe such a thing?
Actually no, you may not.
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: satan has fun in hell? - 8/19/2008 3:14:40 PM
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wreid77
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Yeah, Dante is definitely misleading (WRONG!) for the description of hell, but is is an interesting read.
There are actually 2 different words used in the bible that are translated as hell, and the lake of fire in Rev. is our typical mental image of hell.
Gehenna is one word that got translated as hell. The reality of Gehenna was a burning trash dump of sorts: human waste, wasting human flesh, and the things that go along with that would be found there.
Sheol is the other and I believe the literal translation is "The Grave", but it has also been translated as hell.
The difference in the two word is the imagery Gehenna being a place of torment that could be identified with. Sheol being a place below where you are when you're dead. Maybe the combination of the two is responsible to the modern secular view of hell being in the center of the earth and always burning.
The lake of fire is the final destination for all of the fallen angels and for the unsaved of humanity. No one will have fun there, from the image that is created in Rev. no one will be doing anything there except suffering without end.
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RE: satan has fun in hell? - 8/21/2008 10:55:56 AM
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sparkleingsnow
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quote:
Original: Lufia
I'm new born christian for only 6 months and i have silly questions ...
There are no silly questions. Any honest question asked to try to understand something is a good question. As a new born christian you will have lots of questions. Thats good. 
quote:
Original: Lufia
My question is about satan, demons and hell. God said that hell was for satan and his demons, not for mankind. So obviously satan will be thrown into hell. But isn't that a reward for him and his demons to be thrown into hell? It is their home, after all. They will 'enjoy' it there, playing with poor souls there... So to me it doesn't sound too hellish for those demons. It sounds like, Ok you did your job, now go home and never leave for all eternity.
First, the word hell is used in different ways. According to Strong's:
1.) hades hahdace; unseen, ie"Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls. -grave, hell.
2.) yeevva geenna, ghehennah; of Heb. or valley of (the son of) Hinnom; a valley of Jerusalem, as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment.
Two Greek words with different meanings, but both are interpreted as "hell" in our English Bible. (I don't claim to be a Greek scholar.) And I'm telling you this not to confuse you, but so you will know that the word means different things when it's used in different places in the Bible.
So useing hell as the everlasting punishment (also called the lake of fire), the Bible says that:
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
So satan (who was cast out of heaven for wanting to make himself greater than God) will be in hell, not to rule it, but as punishment and will be tormented himself, not taking pleasure in tormenting others.
Our culture (and others) have portrayed hell as a place where satan rules, but that is not what the Bible says.
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
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RE: satan has fun in hell? - 8/21/2008 1:41:23 PM
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Lufia
Posts: 187
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From: Canada, quebec province
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thanks a lot everybody for your answers
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RE: satan has fun in hell? - 8/31/2008 11:38:48 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Scripture says no such thing. Not only does it not say that Lucifer is the devil, it doesn't say that he is a angel much less and Archangel. The only archangel mentioned in scripture is Micheal. Neither does it say that the devil became filled with pride and rebelled against God. It also doesn't say he persuaded any angels to come to his side.
I wouldn't be so quick to write off what has been the traditional teaching of Christianity just because you haven't found the Scripture to support it.
I wonder, Child4Jesus, where do you believe Satan originated?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: satan has fun in hell? - 9/1/2008 12:31:58 AM
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sanctificare
Posts: 13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Scripture says no such thing. Not only does it not say that Lucifer is the devil, it doesn't say that he is a angel much less and Archangel. The only archangel mentioned in scripture is Micheal. Neither does it say that the devil became filled with pride and rebelled against God. It also doesn't say he persuaded any angels to come to his side.
I wouldn't be so quick to write off what has been the traditional teaching of Christianity just because you haven't found the Scripture to support it.
I wonder, Child4Jesus, where do you believe Satan originated?
Isaiah 14:12-15
12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.
I believe that's what you're looking for.
_____________________________
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is - His good, pleasing and perfect will. [Romans 12:2]
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RE: satan has fun in hell? - 9/1/2008 12:35:28 AM
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sanctificare
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One more...
And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.
Revelation 12:9-10
_____________________________
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is - His good, pleasing and perfect will. [Romans 12:2]
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RE: satan has fun in hell? - 9/1/2008 12:38:17 AM
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sanctificare
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Sorry, there's more to it -
"But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."
Revelation 12:12
_____________________________
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is - His good, pleasing and perfect will. [Romans 12:2]
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RE: satan has fun in hell? - 9/1/2008 3:26:23 AM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 470
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Sanctificare,
First if you read the entire chapter you will see that it is talking about the king of Babylon.
Isaiah 14
15"Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol,
To the recesses of the pit.
16"Those who see you will gaze at you,
They will ponder over you, saying,
'Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17Who made the world like a wilderness
And overthrew its cities,
Who did not allow his prisoners to go home?'
18"All the kings of the nations lie in glory,
Each in his own tomb.
Nowhere in the entire chapter does it even hint that it is talking about someone other that the king of Babylon who is a man, a human being.
Oh by the way that other book and chapter that supposedly is talking about someone other than a man is:
Ezekiel 28: 1-19
1 The word of the LORD came to me again, saying, 2 “Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD:
“ Because your heart is lifted up,
And you say, ‘I am a god,
I sit in the seat of gods,
In the midst of the seas,’
Yet you are a man, and not a god,
Though you set your heart as the heart of a god
3 (Behold, you are wiser than Daniel!
There is no secret that can be hidden from you!
4 With your wisdom and your understanding
You have gained riches for yourself,
And gathered gold and silver into your treasuries;
5 By your great wisdom in trade you have increased your riches,
And your heart is lifted up because of your riches),”
6 ‘Therefore thus says the Lord GOD:
“ Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god,
7 Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you,
The most terrible of the nations;
And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom,
And defile your splendor.
8 They shall throw you down into the Pit,
And you shall die the death of the slain
In the midst of the seas.
9 “ Will you still say before him who slays you,
‘ I am a god’?
But you shall be a man, and not a god,
In the hand of him who slays you.
10 You shall die the death of the uncircumcised
By the hand of aliens;
For I have spoken,” says the Lord GOD.’”
Lamentation for the King of Tyre
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD:
“ You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 “ You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you. 16 “ By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within, And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.
17 “ Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.
18 “ You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror, And shall be no more forever.”’”
This as you can see is address the king of Tyre. He called a man over and over again. He is also said to have been in Eden. Yet we know that this king was never there. Also if this is supposedly talking about Satan, who was supposedly an archangel, he seems to called a cherub here. The only cherub that scripture says was in the garden was the one guarding the way into Eden.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: satan has fun in hell? - 9/1/2008 10:00:43 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
This as you can see is address the king of Tyre. He called a man over and over again. He is also said to have been in Eden. Yet we know that this king was never there. Also if this is supposedly talking about Satan, who was supposedly an archangel, he seems to called a cherub here. The only cherub that scripture says was in the garden was the one guarding the way into Eden.
You seem to have a very limited interpretive scope. Just because the prophecies here were addressing human kings does not exclude the possibility of them also addressing deeper spiritual issues. If this were not so, then pretty much all of our modern interpretations of the OT prophets are way off.
To address the concept of Satan bringing angels with him in his rebellion - Revelation 12:4.
Also, you didn't answer my question - where did Satan come from in your view?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: satan has fun in hell? - 9/1/2008 12:28:04 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 470
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: offline
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quote:
This as you can see is address the king of Tyre. He called a man over and over again. He is also said to have been in Eden. Yet we know that this king was never there. Also if this is supposedly talking about Satan, who was supposedly an archangel, he seems to called a cherub here. The only cherub that scripture says was in the garden was the one guarding the way into Eden.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
You seem to have a very limited interpretive scope. Just because the prophecies here were addressing human kings does not exclude the possibility of them also addressing deeper spiritual issues. If this were not so, then pretty much all of our modern interpretations of the OT prophets are way off.
To address the concept of Satan bringing angels with him in his rebellion - Revelation 12:4. Also, you didn't answer my question - where did Satan come from in your view?
Yeah they could be addressing deeper spiritual issues however they are not addressing the devil. There is no hint that it is. The language is symbolic of the things and glory these kings had. In a later chapter a king is called a tree in Eden. Obviously he was never a tree or was he ever in Eden.
So you believe that the devil was head of music, the most beautiful angel, etc.? Again scripture says no such thing.
John 8:43-45
43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.
1 John 3:8
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
Scripture has very little to say about the devil. It tells us about his nature, what he does, and how he will end up. It doesn't say he started out as an angel, that he rebelled against God trying to take His throne or any of that nonsense that people impose on scripture or are told that is what it means.
As for where Satan comes from. He was obviously created by God. What he was created as we are not told.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: satan has fun in hell? - 9/1/2008 1:18:36 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: online
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quote:
Yeah they could be addressing deeper spiritual issues however they are not addressing the devil. There is no hint that it is. The language is symbolic of the things and glory these kings had. In a later chapter a king is called a tree in Eden. Obviously he was never a tree or was he ever in Eden.
You admit that the language is symbolic, but you deny the possibility that it could be talking about Satan? Think about it - Satan would have been in a position of authority, and the allusion to Eden makes sense, in that he was present during the Eden events.
If those prophecies only speak about those kings, what use are they for us as Christians today?
quote:
So you believe that the devil was head of music, the most beautiful angel, etc.? Again scripture says no such thing.
I never said that. I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth.
quote:
As for where Satan comes from. He was obviously created by God. What he was created as we are not told.
Do you believe God made him specifically for the purpose of being evil?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: satan has fun in hell? - 9/2/2008 12:02:35 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 470
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: offline
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MrFribbles,
I wasn't trying to say that you believed that. However that is one of the things that are thought about Satan. There is no scripture to support such a position or is it ever hinted that Satan was anything other than what he is.
There is no reason under the sun to think Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 is talking about Satan. Just because that is what has always been thought means it is correct. People need to read scripture and study it, not just assume what they are being thought is right. I used to believe what you seem to think those scriptures are saying. However after reading them a few times and seeing that the Bible says nothing about Satan's origin meaning how it is that he came to be as he is, I don't impose the understanding that you seem to be imposing on those scriptures because there is no reason to.
Is it possible that it is talking about Satan? Yes it is. Is it necessarily talking about Satan? I don't believe there is any reason to assume it is. Believing or not believing those are talking about Satan doesn't change how I live my life. I don't see why I have to believe that it is talking about him or why it seems so important to you that I do.
Why is it that you believe it is talking about Satan?
Oh as for what I believe about Satan. I believe what Jesus says about him. That he is the way he is from the beginning.
< Message edited by Child4Jesus -- 9/2/2008 12:55:54 PM >
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: satan has fun in hell? - 9/2/2008 1:09:41 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1886
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: online
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quote:
There is no reason under the sun to think Isaiah 14 ... is talking about Satan. ... Why is it that you believe it is talking about Satan?
Just looking at Isaiah 14, it seems that some cosmic imagery is being brought into play here. It speaks of one falling from heaven, of becoming like God. It calls this being the morning star, and son of the dawn. While this prophecy is certainly speaking of a certain earthly king, the unique cosmic language seems to suggest something more.
quote:
Oh as for what I believe about Satan. I believe what Jesus says about him. That he is the way he is from the beginning.
So you believe God created a being for the sole purpose of evil?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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