Being Christ like (Full Version)

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deliveredarling -> Being Christ like (8/9/2008 7:09:32 AM)

This is a an inspired thread stemming from Liveloved's thread Are you a beast of Burden. (I felt like my responses were leaning toward this and didn't want to divert the thread.)

These are my thoughts and opinions, feel free to share yours. It's not an I'm right, your wrong kind of thing.

If the Hs is living in me, then I naturally carry the fruits of the spirit. I naturally possess some of the characteristics of Christ.
I cannot be Christ. I cannot do what Christ did for other people.
I have the power to love and that is about it. I can show tolerance, patience, kindness. I can't deliver, save, or fix another human being.

I can pray. God is going to do what He sees fit to do and do what is in our best interest no matter how much I pray or what I do.
I pray for that person and leave it in His hands. For me to continue to go to him in prayer over an issue I don't see an immediate fix too, is doubt or rather a mini fit. He's not doing what I asked Him to do or fix it the way that I want it fixed.

He's not a genie I can control or to do my bidding. We have to trust that He knows what is best for us, right down to the painful experience, allowing Him to carry us through it.

Your thoughts?



tapestry -> RE: Being Christ like (8/9/2008 9:56:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I can pray. God is going to do what He sees fit to do and do what is in our best interest no matter how much I pray or what I do.
I pray for that person and leave it in His hands. For me to continue to go to him in prayer over an issue I don't see an immediate fix too, is doubt or rather a mini fit. He's not doing what I asked Him to do or fix it the way that I want it fixed.

He's not a genie I can control or to do my bidding. We have to trust that He knows what is best for us, right down to the painful experience, allowing Him to carry us through it.

Your thoughts?

The Bible is full of examples of specific prayers. The people who did the prayer where just as human as we are, they had no special hot line to heaven. They did not know what Gods will was in the situation they where praying about, but they prayed anyway, many times for days even years. Sometimes they had very unusual prayers, but they prayed anyway.

In 1 Samuel Hanna prayed for years for a child
In Joshua 10, Josua prayed for the sun to stand still (talk about requesting the unusual!)
In 2 Kings Hezekiah prayed that he would not die and God added 15 years to his life
The Bible is full of examples, I just mentioned 3 of them here.

My point is that there is no "rule" for what you are allowed to pray for or how often you should pray for it or how long.

As parents we want to hear about everything our kids have to say, what thier dreams and hopes are, what is troubling them etc. Why would our heavenly Father want any less?



URForgiven -> RE: Being Christ like (8/9/2008 10:34:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

If the Hs is living in me, then I naturally carry the fruits of the spirit. I naturally possess some of the characteristics of Christ.


Only in as much as you are depending upon Him. The measure of the fruit you bear is directly proportional to the measure of your dependence upon Him.

quote:

I cannot be Christ. I cannot do what Christ did for other people.
I have the power to love and that is about it. I can show tolerance, patience, kindness. I can't deliver, save, or fix another human being.


Actually you can do none of these things. These are all fruit of the Spirit, produced by God in and through you, as you abide in Him.

quote:

I can pray. God is going to do what He sees fit to do and do what is in our best interest no matter how much I pray or what I do.
I pray for that person and leave it in His hands. For me to continue to go to him in prayer over an issue I don't see an immediate fix too, is doubt or rather a mini fit. He's not doing what I asked Him to do or fix it the way that I want it fixed.


We do not pray to change Gods mind, we pray to know Gods mind. Perhaps what you think a person needs is contrary to what Gods thinks? Prayer is as much, if not more, listening to God, as it is speaking to Him.

You pray for that person, and then make yourself available to God to use you in whatever way He sees fit to use you. That is allowing the Holy Spirit to lead you.

quote:

He's not a genie I can control or to do my bidding. We have to trust that He knows what is best for us, right down to the painful experience, allowing Him to carry us through it.

Your thoughts?


I think you answered it all at the very end...we have to trust.

Jesus Christ example to us is that to be like Him means to live in total dependence upon God. That is what Jesus showed us a true man is. We are never more Christlike than when we are depending and trusting in God. And we are never more un-Christlike than when we are depending on ourselves and our own self effort.

Peace



deliveredarling -> RE: Being Christ like (8/9/2008 11:51:32 AM)

quote:


quote:

I cannot be Christ. I cannot do what Christ did for other people.
I have the power to love and that is about it. I can show tolerance, patience, kindness. I can't deliver, save, or fix another human being.



Actually you can do none of these things. These are all fruit of the Spirit, produced by God in and through you, as you abide in Him.



This is where we differ. I can make choices based on knowing God. I can choose to be loving or unloving. Just because He lives in me, does not mean that I can not make a bad choice.
I choose how I react in every situation. At the HS prompting is when I know I have made a bad decision, I then need to repent and I know better the next time.

You make it sound like we are robots driven by an unseen force. I very much disagree with this thinking. Our whole lives on this earth are based on learning. Why learn? Because we have to. We don't learn if we don't make mistakes. The HS doesn't keep us from making mistakes, if that were the case then why did Jesus have to die such a horrible death. Mistakes are sin (some of them anyway). It's all about our choices. We either choose to live like Christ or live like the world.



URForgiven -> RE: Being Christ like (8/9/2008 12:39:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

quote:


quote:

I cannot be Christ. I cannot do what Christ did for other people.
I have the power to love and that is about it. I can show tolerance, patience, kindness. I can't deliver, save, or fix another human being.



Actually you can do none of these things. These are all fruit of the Spirit, produced by God in and through you, as you abide in Him.



This is where we differ. I can make choices based on knowing God. I can choose to be loving or unloving. Just because He lives in me, does not mean that I can not make a bad choice.
I choose how I react in every situation. At the HS prompting is when I know I have made a bad decision, I then need to repent and I know better the next time.

You make it sound like we are robots driven by an unseen force. I very much disagree with this thinking. Our whole lives on this earth are based on learning. Why learn? Because we have to. We don't learn if we don't make mistakes. The HS doesn't keep us from making mistakes, if that were the case then why did Jesus have to die such a horrible death. Mistakes are sin (some of them anyway). It's all about our choices. We either choose to live like Christ or live like the world.


Are you saying that you produce spiritual fruit?

Peace



deliveredarling -> RE: Being Christ like (8/9/2008 1:13:53 PM)

quote:

Are you saying that you produce spiritual fruit?


No.

Spiritual fruits are displayed naturally, without any effort. However, there are situations that arise, that I do have to make an instant choice in how I will react.

EX: My child talks back to me. Do I instantly yell at them to correct it or do I calmly correct it?

Do you see the difference?

Anger is something we have to make an effort at controlling. Some people are blessed to not have a temper. I am not one of those people. When I get angry or fearful, I have to be very conscious of my actions. I have an extremely sharp and wounding tongue. For me to not be conscious of it, would be irresponsible.

The point, I'm trying to make is that it takes action oriented effort on our part to be Christ like.

We can choose to do it or choose to not be like Him.

Take Peter as an example, given three different opportunities, he denied Christ in order to be like the world. Three times he made a choice. He finally choose to acknowledge Christ. The responsibility was His. Just as it is ours.



URForgiven -> RE: Being Christ like (8/9/2008 1:40:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

quote:

Are you saying that you produce spiritual fruit?


No.

Spiritual fruits are displayed naturally, without any effort. However, there are situations that arise, that I do have to make an instant choice in how I will react.

EX: My child talks back to me. Do I instantly yell at them to correct it or do I calmly correct it?

Do you see the difference?

Anger is something we have to make an effort at controlling. Some people are blessed to not have a temper. I am not one of those people. When I get angry or fearful, I have to be very conscious of my actions. I have an extremely sharp and wounding tongue. For me to not be conscious of it, would be irresponsible.

The point, I'm trying to make is that it takes action oriented effort on our part to be Christ like.

We can choose to do it or choose to not be like Him.

Take Peter as an example, given three different opportunities, he denied Christ in order to be like the world. Three times he made a choice. He finally choose to acknowledge Christ. The responsibility was His. Just as it is ours.


What makes you think that it is you who causes you to not react in the way your flesh would normally react? Is that not in fact the Holy Spirit? Your choice is always and at all times to abide by His desire, or to react in the flesh.

When you are angry, that is you. When you reply with that sharp tongue of yours, that is you [me too BTW]. And when we respond with love instead of anger that is the Holy Spirit within us.

You are correct when you say that Peters choice was to finally acknowledge Jesus. And so it is with us. In every situation we encounter we have the choice to either choose Jesus, or choose our own way. The choice is not to be like Him, the choice is to let Him be who He is in and through us...or not.

Jesus is alive and lives in you, and it is He who is big enough and sufficient for whatever situation we may encounter. What we learn as we grow in grace is not how to be like Him, He is God. What we learn is to be like He was when he walked this earth, and what He was, was completely and totally dependent upon God the father at all times. That is our goal. What we learn is to trust and depend on Him, because Jesus is God.

We have been given the marvelous privilege of being used by God to reach out to a hurting and lost world.

Peace



Liveloved -> RE: Being Christ like (8/9/2008 2:48:50 PM)

Great idea, dear! [:)]

Oh no, the passage I want to quote (and will quote) in response to your OP and other responses speaks of clothing and nakedness?!?!? But I'll proceed. It really does all tie together. . .

"For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven; inasmuch as we having put it on, shall not be found naked." IICor 5:2-3

In my understanding of this passage, Paul is speaking of our having put on Christ. . . our need to be clothed with Christ. . . and how the more we are covered/clothed by Him, the less of 'us', our nakedness, will be found. John the Baptist put it "He must increase and I must decrease."

And as URForgiven said, it's about His life being lived through me. We are the earthen vessels. The surpassing greatness of the power is of God not from ourselves.

It's a daily dying so that His life is manifested in me.



mvic -> RE: Being Christ like (8/9/2008 2:48:52 PM)

When you have the Holy Spirit in you, and you do something good: e.g. you are calm, serene, patient, understanding, loving, helpful etc ...

Is that the Spirit working within you?

Or is that you doing/being these things with the help of the Spirit?

If, (as DeliveredDarling said) "I can choose to be loving or unloving. Just because He lives in me, does not mean that I can not make a bad choice."

If you are un-loving, does that mean that for that instant the Holy Spirit has left you? Or is He still within you and you are overuling His desire for you to do good, be loving etc ...

How can He possibly still be within you, if you are shutting Him out and doing your own thing, your own choices?



URForgiven -> RE: Being Christ like (8/9/2008 3:53:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

When you have the Holy Spirit in you, and you do something good: e.g. you are calm, serene, patient, understanding, loving, helpful etc ...

Is that the Spirit working within you?


If you have the Holy Spirit living in you, He will produce spiritual fruit through you as you abide in Christ.

quote:

Or is that you doing/being these things with the help of the Spirit?


The Holy Spirit does not help us produce fruit, it is all Him, and none of us. Christians are in the abiding and bearing business, not the producing business.

quote:

If, (as DeliveredDarling said) "I can choose to be loving or unloving. Just because He lives in me, does not mean that I can not make a bad choice."

If you are un-loving, does that mean that for that instant the Holy Spirit has left you? Or is He still within you and you are overuling His desire for you to do good, be loving etc ...


The good choice or bad choice is whether to trust and depend upon Jesus or not. The Holy Spirit does not leave you, but neither does He coerce or force His way upon you.

quote:

How can He possibly still be within you, if you are shutting Him out and doing your own thing, your own choices?


Because He is God, and He loves you and He will never forsake you, and He is patient, and because He knows the end from the beginning, and....I think you get the idea.

We learn through it all, and He uses it all to bring us into an ever closer faith/trust relationship with Himself.

Peace



deliveredarling -> RE: Being Christ like (8/9/2008 4:15:10 PM)

MVIC, it's called free will. It's called human nature.

Do you ever speak sharply? Act unbecoming? Get angry? Return evil for evil, even slightly, you know, that sneaky anger to repay a wrong?

Has the HS left you or did you decide to step aside, even if it's just for a moment.

I have done these things. It doesn't mean the Spirit left me, it means I ignored Him. I choose to react from my humanness.

For us to say that we do not do this, is untruthful.

Again, just because the HS lives in me, does not mean that I can't do something wrong. It's not the HS's choice for me, it's my choice.

I don't believe that there is a single person walking the face of this earth that doesn't face a choice like this at all in their lives. We all do it. Some are just better at overcoming it than others. We don't get to the point that the choice is lost, until we are with Him in heaven.



mvic -> RE: Being Christ like (8/9/2008 6:10:39 PM)

Sorry to come back again.

URForgiven and Deliveredarling - You seem to be saying the same thing.

The Holy Spirit is within you - I accept that.

He produces good fruit - I accept that too.

When you choose to do wrong, He is still within you, patiently waiting and loving you.

It's this last bit that needs further explanation.

Say you're a Christian, you have the Holy Spirit within you, but for some reason you do something wrong/bad. Just like the examples Deliveredarling gave.

Then one thing leads to another, and your sins become more serious and more frequent.

According to you - the HS is still within you; even though you've gone into a rampage of sin and evil doing.

What makes you so different from the un-believer, who never had the HS within him, who also sins as much and as deeply as you.

Why is the HS within you, despite your bad behaviour, and not within him?



deliveredarling -> RE: Being Christ like (8/9/2008 7:06:36 PM)

quote:


What makes you so different from the un-believer, who never had the HS within him, who also sins as much and as deeply as you.


because I've accepted His free gift of salvation. It's not that I can continually sin and sin, it means that I am forgiven. Eventually, I will receive a HS bip upside the head[:D].

If we sin, their are consequences, whether the come as discipline from the Lord or they are just the natural consequence from our actions. If He disciplines and we continually reject it.......for another thread.



Theophile2 -> RE: Being Christ like (8/9/2008 7:07:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

For me to continue to go to him in prayer over an issue I don't see an immediate fix too, is doubt or rather a mini fit. He's not doing what I asked Him to do or fix it the way that I want it fixed.


Deliveredarling - everything in your OP seems to be a fair representation of the Word of God, except the part I quote above.

While I completely understand the sentiment, and I myself have a hard time revisiting some of my prayer request topics, I presume that you derive your perspective from the following:

Ja 1:6-8 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. (7) For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; (8) he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

But I do not believe the concept that we should not be persistent in our prayers a result of what James is saying in praying without doubt:

Take for instance this parable given just after teaching us to pray, and right before stating that we should ask Him:

Lk 11:5-10 And he said to them, "Which of you who has a friend will go to him at midnight and say to him, 'Friend, lend me three loaves, (6) for a friend of mine has arrived on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him'; (7) and he will answer from within, 'Do not bother me; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed. I cannot get up and give you anything'? (8) I tell you, though he will not get up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his impudence he will rise and give him whatever he needs. (9) And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. (10) For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

Or what of this parable:

Lk 18:1-8 And he told them a parable to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart. (2) He said, "In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor respected man. (3) And there was a widow in that city who kept coming to him and saying, 'Give me justice against my adversary.' (4) For a while he refused, but afterward he said to himself, 'Though I neither fear God nor respect man, (5) yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will give her justice, so that she will not beat me down by her continual coming.'" (6) And the Lord said, "Hear what the unrighteous judge says. (7) And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them? (8) I tell you, he will give justice to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?"

Or what of this event:

Mt 15:22-28 And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon." (23) But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, "Send her away, for she is crying out after us." (24) He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (25) But she came and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, help me." (26) And he answered, "It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." (27) She said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." (28) Then Jesus answered her, "O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed instantly.

What of this example:

Mk 14:39-41 And again he went away and prayed, saying the same words. (40) And again he came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were very heavy, and they did not know what to answer him. (41) And he came the third time and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and taking your rest? It is enough; the hour has come. The Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

... I took a short cut on this last example and went to the part that by inference counted Jesus praying for the third time that evening on the same topic.

Do not all four of these passages from scripture speak of persistence in prayer?

Blessings ...

[sm=icon_smile_fish.gif]



Theophile2 -> RE: Being Christ like (8/9/2008 7:26:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

What makes you so different from the un-believer, who never had the HS within him, who also sins as much and as deeply as you.

Why is the HS within you, despite your bad behaviour, and not within him?

When you choose to do wrong, He is still within you, patiently waiting and loving you.

It's this last bit that needs further explanation.


mvic -

You are getting some good advice here, although your line of questioning seems to be worthy of a different thread.

First and foremost, I would offer that a study of Romans 7 would be beneficial for you.

Second, the reason a Christian does not "lose" the seal of the HS (2 Cor 1:22; 2 Cor 5:5; Eph 1:13-14) when he/she sins is because when we accept Christ as our Savior, Christ "translates" us from being spiritually dead into being spiritually alive (Co 1:13), and the Holy Spirit is given as the seal of our guarantee of adoption as sons and daughters of the Kingdom of God.

What DOES happen, is that our ability to communicate with God is cut off until we repent of our sins: Ps 66:18; Jn 9:31; Job 27:8, Job 27:9; Pr 15:8, Pr 15:29, Pr 21:13, Pr 28:9; Isaiah 1:15.

As deliveredarling says, sometimes, that requires a royal kick in the rear-end from a Holy Spirit - sized boot.

None of this is afforded the person who has not accepted Christ as their Savior. Because that person, is still spiritually dead.

comprende amigo?

[sm=icon_smile_fish.gif]



URForgiven -> RE: Being Christ like (8/9/2008 7:37:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

Sorry to come back again.

URForgiven and Deliveredarling - You seem to be saying the same thing.

The Holy Spirit is within you - I accept that.

He produces good fruit - I accept that too.

When you choose to do wrong, He is still within you, patiently waiting and loving you.

It's this last bit that needs further explanation.

Say you're a Christian, you have the Holy Spirit within you, but for some reason you do something wrong/bad. Just like the examples Deliveredarling gave.

Then one thing leads to another, and your sins become more serious and more frequent.

According to you - the HS is still within you; even though you've gone into a rampage of sin and evil doing.

What makes you so different from the un-believer, who never had the HS within him, who also sins as much and as deeply as you.

Why is the HS within you, despite your bad behaviour, and not within him?


In other words, if you are forgiven then you might as well sin like the devil, right? At least you do understand grace. Yes you can go ahead and sin like the devil, even after you are saved. Obviously. But why would you want to? If sin is bondage, and grace is freedom, why would you choose to place yourself back under the bondage of sin.

Your question reminds me of the beggar who was offered free meals at a restaurant for the rest of his life. He was taken inside and shown all the different foods he could enjoy, as much as he wanted, anytime he wanted. The proprietor asked him what he thought of all the good food that he could have and the beggar responded,

"All this looks too good to be true, I have been hungry for so long I hardly know what it would be like to eat good food like this." He then hesitated for a moment and the proprietor asked him if anything was the matter. The beggar said in a low voice,

"This is all really great....but would it be alright if I went and scrounged through your dumpster instead?"

That's just plain stupid isn't it? And yet that what people say will happen if we truly believe we are forgiven. Christ has set us free from the bondage of sin, why would we want to return to that? You can try it if you like, but it will be like a butterfly trying to be a worm again. Sure you can act like the worm you were, but you will still be a butterfly. And eventually God will show you that.

The reason the Holy Spirit will not leave you is because the only thing that could cause Him to leave is sin, and the sin issue, as far as God is concerned, has already been dealt with.

When we turn from our self sufficiency, and turn to dependency upon Jesus and His sufficiency, then the Holy Spirit will lead us, and the Holy Spirit will not lead us to sin.

Peace



mvic -> RE: Being Christ like (8/9/2008 8:09:21 PM)

URForgiven - thanx for your input.

I am concerned lest we invoke the wrath of the mods and be judged off topic.

Let me pick one comment you make: "In other words, if you are forgiven then you might as well sin like the devil, right?"

I agree with you that I wouldn't want to "eat from the dumpster". However, the fact remains that there are instances where saved Christians, for one reason or another, totally lose their Faith and are totally led astray by the devil - i.e. they are Christian no longer and don't behave as such.

To claim that the Holy Spirit is still with them in these circumstances is what I don't understand.

"The reason the Holy Spirit will not leave you is because the only thing that could cause Him to leave is sin, and the sin issue, as far as God is concerned, has already been dealt with."

It's your quotation above that's difficult to understand. Sure, a Christian who has repented and confessed, then his sin has been dealt with. But what if he's subsequently totally led astray as in my example?



Forever_flying -> RE: Being Christ like (8/9/2008 8:28:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

URForgiven - thanx for your input.

I am concerned lest we invoke the wrath of the mods and be judged off topic.

Let me pick one comment you make: "In other words, if you are forgiven then you might as well sin like the devil, right?"

I agree with you that I wouldn't want to "eat from the dumpster". However, the fact remains that there are instances where saved Christians, for one reason or another, totally lose their Faith and are totally led astray by the devil - i.e. they are Christian no longer and don't behave as such.

To claim that the Holy Spirit is still with them in these circumstances is what I don't understand.

"The reason the Holy Spirit will not leave you is because the only thing that could cause Him to leave is sin, and the sin issue, as far as God is concerned, has already been dealt with."

It's your quotation above that's difficult to understand. Sure, a Christian who has repented and confessed, then his sin has been dealt with. But what if he's subsequently totally led astray as in my example?


When we are forgiven, we are forgiven forever. Everything we have, or will do is already dealt with. Except for subsequent conquences of course, but that is the gist of things. So, even if we mess up big time, we still have our salvation, we can't lose it. We can try and ignore it, but we can't lose it.



deliveredarling -> RE: Being Christ like (8/9/2008 9:04:00 PM)

quote:


I agree with you that I wouldn't want to "eat from the dumpster". However, the fact remains that there are instances where saved Christians, for one reason or another, totally lose their Faith and are totally led astray by the devil - i.e. they are Christian no longer and don't behave as such.

To claim that the Holy Spirit is still with them in these circumstances is what I don't understand.


I would then have to question whether or not that peron was truly saved to begin with.



deliveredarling -> RE: Being Christ like (8/9/2008 9:12:38 PM)

quote:


What of this example:

Mk 14:39-41 And again he went away and prayed, saying the same words. (40) And again he came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were very heavy, and they did not know what to answer him. (41) And he came the third time and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and taking your rest? It is enough; the hour has come. The Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.


My Bible does not say He prayed the same prayer three times, but that He woke them saying the same things three times.

I have no problem with people who choose to be repetitive in prayer. I just don't.

Like I said earlier, if I have to keep going to Him with an issue, it's because I haven't trusted Him to handle it and I'm not seeing things done in the fashion I want.
Repetitive prayer for me is when it's about what I want, not what He wants or even trusting that He is doing it.
I'm not saying it's this way for everyone, just me. I'm relaying personal testimony here and not a favorable or becoming side of me either.
It happens and I'm probably not the only one to do this. However, I am pleased to say that it is a lot less than it used to be[;)]



deliveredarling -> RE: Being Christ like (8/9/2008 9:28:01 PM)

I got to thinking about it and I do repetitively prayer for the same people, but just not praying the same prayer over and over, unless it's thy will be done.

I just don't think I have the power to change God's mind or sway a decision of His, one way or the other. Besides that, why would I want to, knowing that the Father only gives good gifts to His children. Wouldn't what I want as the outcome be far less than what the Father has already deemed necessary?



URForgiven -> RE: Being Christ like (8/10/2008 8:16:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

URForgiven - thanx for your input.

I am concerned lest we invoke the wrath of the mods and be judged off topic.

Let me pick one comment you make: "In other words, if you are forgiven then you might as well sin like the devil, right?"

I agree with you that I wouldn't want to "eat from the dumpster". However, the fact remains that there are instances where saved Christians, for one reason or another, totally lose their Faith and are totally led astray by the devil - i.e. they are Christian no longer and don't behave as such.

To claim that the Holy Spirit is still with them in these circumstances is what I don't understand.

"The reason the Holy Spirit will not leave you is because the only thing that could cause Him to leave is sin, and the sin issue, as far as God is concerned, has already been dealt with."

It's your quotation above that's difficult to understand. Sure, a Christian who has repented and confessed, then his sin has been dealt with. But what if he's subsequently totally led astray as in my example?


Christians do not loose their faith, for their faith is in Christ, and Christ has promised to never leave us nor forsake us. They may loose their way, they may get caught up in sins and they may stay caught up for a very long time, but that does not mean they are no longer Christians. Your assumption is that God will not complete the work He has begun in us, but we know that He has said He will.

The reason you have difficulty is because you do not truly believe that Christs shed blood on the cross is where God took away our sins. You still think that God is judging us based on our sins, but He is not. Christ has taken all of the punishment for our sins, there is none left for us. God is judging us based on life. And that life is Jesus Christ. God sees us as either in Christ, and alive, or not in Christ, and dead.

For God, the sin issue between Him and man is over. And it is over because He has accepted His Son's one sacrifice as payment in full; the Just for the unjust, the One who had no sin for the ones who had nothing but sin. The Christian life is Christ, and only He can live it. We give Him all that we are, which is nothing, and He gives us all that He is, which is everything.

So, the question is not how do we be Christlike, the question is how do we let Christ be who He is in our lives? And we do that in the same way that Jesus let God the Father be who He was in Jesus earthly life...by living in total and complete dependency upon Christ at all times.

Peace



deliveredarling -> RE: Being Christ like (8/10/2008 8:31:36 AM)

Correct me if I am wrong here URF, your reply seems based on the assumption that everyone who claims to be a Christian is one. I disagree. There are many people out there who have falsely been deceived. Many that think a simple reading of a tract, a rehearsed prayer or regular church attendance makes them a Christian. With these, there is no new creature or life changing experience, no desire to give up the old way of life.
I understand what you are saying about the "beginning a good work", however if the work was never truly begun, our expectations are null and void. Time tells the truth. For a person to speak and not act, well we know what the Word says about that......



URForgiven -> RE: Being Christ like (8/10/2008 8:48:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

Correct me if I am wrong here URF, your reply seems based on the assumption that everyone who claims to be a Christian is one. I disagree. There are many people out there who have falsely been deceived. Many that think a simple reading of a tract, a rehearsed prayer or regular church attendance makes them a Christian. With these, there is no new creature or life changing experience, no desire to give up the old way of life.
I understand what you are saying about the "beginning a good work", however if the work was never truly begun, our expectations are null and void. Time tells the truth. For a person to speak and not act, well we know what the Word says about that......


My reply is to a question about Christians. Whether one is or is not, is an entirely different subject.

Peace



deliveredarling -> RE: Being Christ like (8/10/2008 8:50:29 AM)

Maybe I got lost in the repartee[:(]

ETA: I went back and reread. You made the same point as I did, but worded it much, much, much more eloquently.



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