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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/22/2008 12:28:54 PM
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Hayseed
Posts: 558
Joined: 4/15/2006
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Yeah, I do know where you stand. And I'm saying that your "universal truths" ain't necessarily so.
You've brought up a couple of pieces of "evidence" and a scripture that don't quite fit and I'm simply questioning you about those.
I figured you had the ability to back up what you were saying, number 1, and number 2, I asked the questions because there is the possibility that I was misunderstanding what you were trying to say.
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/22/2008 12:30:56 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 9954
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
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I hope Kath don't mind but I am copying her post in the alcohol thread to this thread. Several of her points seem appropriate to this thread also.
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I also don't care if someone takes what I've offered or not. It's what worked for me, I can't say how Joe blow down the street did it now can I? I can only speak from my own personal experience.
It seems like you are posting as the authority because you've been there. But it's only your experience.
Jimbo's experience with cigs will be different that Sam's.
The same could be said with those involved with alcohol.
Threads like this are difficult because it gets personal stories involved.
Oh, I just read this somewhere else but it fits here, Quoting Sharon-Marie about a different issue entirely:
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There's an old saying in Twelfth Step Recovery Groups . . . "Principles before Personalities" . . . which basically means to discuss the actual issue; don't make it about the person.
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A friend gave me a report with Stats showing that 4,153,237 people got married last year. Now I don't want to start any trouble but I can't help but wonder. Shouldn't that be an even number?
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/22/2008 9:18:40 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3377
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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It took me three years of hell to quit smoking. ( I should say the first time )
It was not easy.
I guess I am a sissy....o well.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/22/2008 9:45:33 PM
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MindySue69
Posts: 321
Joined: 8/5/2008
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When my friend's husband quit smoking, about three weeks into it the kids were all begging him to start smoking again because he was so miserable to live with!
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/23/2008 1:20:08 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MindySue69
I don't know - I wish Christians would stick to the real, valid sins mentioned in the Bible. If we can get those mentioned in Romans 1 under control, then we can move on to the arbitrary stuff.
The bible says that which is not done in faith is a sin... And given the nature of sin and what is means to God He considers them all valid since it took the blood of His only begotten Son to quell His wrath for even the arbitrary stuff.
If one can squeeze knowingly ingesting a harmful and addicting substance into the body into an act of faith you have my vote for theologian of the year...
John
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/23/2008 6:44:10 AM
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MindySue69
Posts: 321
Joined: 8/5/2008
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SO if I eat a piece of apple pie without "faith" I'm sinning?
If I get up and take a shower without "faith" I'm sinning?
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/23/2008 11:15:31 AM
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Hayseed
Posts: 558
Joined: 4/15/2006
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If, for some weird reason, you were taught those things were a sin and you actually believed it deep down and did them with a guilty conscience thinking for some reason you were displeasing God by doing so... YES!
This is why I get so angry with people trying to teach people things that aren't necessarily sins, are. They pollute the conscience and stumble the weak.
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/23/2008 12:24:34 PM
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MindySue69
Posts: 321
Joined: 8/5/2008
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Like I said in another thread - there are enough *real* sins to worry about with out adding more to the list.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/23/2008 1:48:14 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MindySue69
SO if I eat a piece of apple pie without "faith" I'm sinning?
If I get up and take a shower without "faith" I'm sinning?
Is that your understanding of the verse? How are the above examples liken to smoking?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/23/2008 1:49:43 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MindySue69
Like I said in another thread - there are enough *real* sins to worry about with out adding more to the list.
What is a real sin as opposed to a invalid or sorta sin? Does the bible speak of such distinctions as if some are not offensive to God?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/23/2008 1:54:50 PM
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MindySue69
Posts: 321
Joined: 8/5/2008
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A sorta sin is something that someone decides is a sin - when in fact, there is nothing in scripture to support that assumption.
quote:
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: MindySue69
SO if I eat a piece of apple pie without "faith" I'm sinning?
If I get up and take a shower without "faith" I'm sinning?
Is that your understanding of the verse? How are the above examples liken to smoking?
Actually, I was kind of wondering how you managed to figure the verse applied to something like smoking...
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/23/2008 2:10:44 PM
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MindySue69
Posts: 321
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Furthermore, just because YOU say "Something" is offensive to God, doesn't make it so.
I'm wondering if God is happy about all these Christians saying things are offensive to Him - when in fact they probably are not. Just because they're offensive to YOU doesn't mean it's offensive to God.
I have had more than my share of legalistic Christians heaping guilt in my head with pseudo-sins to last a lifetime. Among them being that it's a sin to read any bible other than the KJV, it's a sin for me to wear pants, it's a sin to wear make up, it's a sin to be on the internet, it's a sin to drink caffeine, it's a sin to eat anything other than organic food...and I'm learning that for some it's a sin to feed a baby from a bottle instead of "the way God intended..."
I believe Eve was the first one to "add" to the sins - she said not only was it a sin to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, but it was also a sin to touch it. Since the early days in the Garden, man has been trying to add to what's a sin and what isn't...and yet. they still. sin.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/23/2008 2:53:39 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MindySue69
Actually, I was kind of wondering how you managed to figure the verse applied to something like smoking...
I asked the following in a prior post...
If one can squeeze knowingly ingesting a harmful and addicting substance into the body into an act of faith you have my vote for theologian of the year...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/23/2008 3:32:33 PM
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MindySue69
Posts: 321
Joined: 8/5/2008
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I never said smoking a cigarette WAS an "act of faith" and never even implied as such. It is no more an "act of faith" than drinking a glass of water or going to bed or making dinner. It's just something someone does.
To turn it into a spiritual act is silly.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/23/2008 5:03:43 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 387
Joined: 6/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
Sissy?? Okay, you've added over-sensitive (or maybe delusional) to arrogant. Last I looked, those two aren't fruits of the Spirit. Hayseed's right, you should just debate with the only opponent worthy of your wisdom. 'later.
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You're on a roll aren't you. If you can paint me delusional, then your points must have substance.
You're delusional if you think I was calling you a sissie. That's why I put it parenthetically with over-sensitive.
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Okay, to the point. You wrote:
quote:
What severe effects? My dad uncle, sister and brother all quit smoking years ago without a problem. More people have quit smoking in our society than smoke now. It may have been difficult for you, but it's not that hard for most people.
[Most people just decide to quit and that's it. Meanwhile, sissies have a difficult time
Those aren't your words, but that was the message that came across.
Well, if those weren't my words, then that's not the message I was sending. I wouldn't call you a sissie. You called me (and those who agreed with me) that on another thread, and it was weak. I WOULD accuse you of being overly dramatic in your arguments (and maybe if I had family members pass from cancer like yours, I might be a little dramatic, too.). But if you can go as many days as you have without nicotine, and not think about it most of the time, then you've got it beat, dude! Real addicts (heroin, alcoholics, prescription drugs) don't have that kind of control over their addictions.
Cigarettes are not healthy, and very well COULD end one's life a few, or many, years sooner than if one didn't smoke. That doesn't justify the hyperbolic over-kill and down right rudeness of the anti-smoking police. Yeah, Hayseed would probably be wise to quit, but if he enjoys it and can manage it, I'd say he should have a Marlborough for me. In the grand scheme of social problems today, I'd rate smoking way down the list.
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Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/24/2008 10:58:11 AM
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Hayseed
Posts: 558
Joined: 4/15/2006
Status: offline
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One thing people forget is that God created us all to come individually packaged with different likes and dislikes; dreams; health issues; etc.
What you or I may like, somebody else might dislike. That's okay.
What works for you may not work for me.
And here's the real shocker: The fact that we are a certain way and we like it; we have a set of goals and achievements; we have the experiences; we think we dress stylish and cool; etc.... guess what - not everybody WANTS to be like me or you.
Which is fine and to be expected.
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/24/2008 2:47:30 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MindySue69
I never said smoking a cigarette WAS an "act of faith" and never even implied as such.
It is no more an "act of faith" than drinking a glass of water or going to bed or making dinner. It's just something someone does.
To turn it into a spiritual act is silly.
The act of smoking isn't a spiritual act and I haven't tried to turn into one...
I simply asked that how can one knowingly do something that is harmful to themselves and do it in faith... If a person mutilates themselves is that ok to? What about killing yourself? It's just a matter of the degree of harm?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/24/2008 2:52:26 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MindySue69
Furthermore, just because YOU say "Something" is offensive to God, doesn't make it so.
True, just as much as your claim of it noting being offensive doesn't make it ok...
quote:
I'm wondering if God is happy about all these Christians saying things are offensive to Him - when in fact they probably are not. Just because they're offensive to YOU doesn't mean it's offensive to God.
The first sin was offensive to Him enough that it condemned mankind and only the blood of His only begotten Son was enough to cover it...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/24/2008 2:54:19 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hayseed
One thing people forget is that God created us all to come individually packaged with different likes and dislikes; dreams; health issues; etc.
What you or I may like, somebody else might dislike. That's okay.
What works for you may not work for me.
And here's the real shocker: The fact that we are a certain way and we like it; we have a set of goals and achievements; we have the experiences; we think we dress stylish and cool; etc.... guess what - not everybody WANTS to be like me or you.
Which is fine and to be expected.
How does the fact that we are unique by God's design come into play in regards to something being right or wrong?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Question about tobacco - 8/24/2008 3:56:21 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1743
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
I simply asked that how can one knowingly do something that is harmful to themselves and do it in faith
So a Christian cannot enjoy junk food, or drink sodas?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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