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OneJohn410 -> Breaking down cultural walls (8/4/2008 9:52:57 PM)

Emails fly around these days. The following is purported to be a question asked an American who had worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years. The question was 'Can Muslims be good Americans?' Of course, the same could be asked of a Muslim, 'Can Americans be good Muslims?' I think the point of this was that Senator Obama was suggesting that three nationalities need to forgo what makes them who they are, and let's all just live in peace in his speech, and that suggesting such is incredibly naive.

Here were the answers in the email:

Theologically - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon God of Arabia.

Religiously - no. . . . Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256) (Koran).

Scripturally - no. . . Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars of Islam and the Quran.

Geographically - no . . . Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no. . . Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically - no. . . Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America, the great Satan.

Domestically - no. . . Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).

Intellectually - no. . . Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically - no. . . . Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually - no. . . . Because when we declare 'one nation under God,' the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as Heavenly Father, nor is he ever called love in The Quran's 99 excellent names.


So I read this, and I've also read of Muslim American missional outreaches. My take on this email is that it is geared toward the very strict Muslims and strict Christians who already have zero tolerance for how a neighbor would choose to live- that by design of long ago any talk about the need for such walls to come down will remain just that- talk. Mr. Obama's whay can't we all drop our differences and all be friends is therefore a suggestion to some to drop their faith and come out on the world playground and let's all have fun- and it just won't happen.

Comments, anyone? I've a hunch this was already covered, but no harm done in finding out.

OneJohn410



OneJohn410 -> RE: Breaking down cultural walls (8/5/2008 12:26:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: darren.beene

This here just goes to show you they aint no making peace with them Moslem devils. Nothing is going to stop them heetherns from wonting to kill us all, specially us patriottic God fearing Amercans. The best alternative is to just kill ever Moslem that infests the plannet. That woold take care of alot of problems in the world.


Well shucky darn an slop dem chikins! Here'n I's thinkin it say we's all set too fah fo ol' Bahrack AhBummer to be say'n fogit yo ways Christins, Mossums, an' Jewwwssss coz we all gonna be one big hap famlee if'n ya vote me prezdent uhv da Uniter States uv Merka. That that there OBammer he be painty dem rosie pictures trying to trackt dem MTV watchin folks bout whirl peas an all.


Seriously, Mr. Beene, that be alll the thinkin yew kan due? My dawg coulda typt yo thinkin' me tinks.



cow451 -> RE: Breaking down cultural walls (8/5/2008 7:03:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OneJohn410

Emails fly around these days. The following is purported to be a question asked an American who had worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years. The question was 'Can Muslims be good Americans?' Of course, the same could be asked of a Muslim, 'Can Americans be good Muslims?' I think the point of this was that Senator Obama was suggesting that three nationalities need to forgo what makes them who they are, and let's all just live in peace in his speech, and that suggesting such is incredibly naive.


Comments, anyone? I've a hunch this was already covered, but no harm done in finding out.

OneJohn410


The folllowing presidents have made similar statements:
Richard Nixon
Gerald Ford
Jimmy Carter
Ronald Reagan
George H. W. Bush
Bill Clinton
George W. Bush: "On June 24, 2002, I laid out a vision to make this goal a reality. We then drafted the road map as the route to get us there. The heart of this vision is the responsibility of all parties -- of Israel, of the Palestinian people, of the Arab states -- to fight terror, to embrace democracy and reform, and to take the necessary steps for peace."
John McCain: "Prime Minister Olmert and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas are engaged in talks that all of us hope will yield progress toward peace. "

Take out "Obama" and insert name of any US President.



kernsfamily -> RE: Breaking down cultural walls (8/6/2008 9:08:27 AM)

quote:

Intellectually - no. . . Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.


well, based partly on "biblical" principles....and, many other "influences", as well.

Take the U.S. Supreme Court, for instance. Within the court, there are "friezes".....images of individuals that over time, have been influential with regards to laws....and, their influence guided the development of our laws, constitution, and how they came to being...... etc...etc....

Courtroom friezes - The South Wall Frieze includes figures of lawgivers from the time before Jesus and includes Menes, Hammurabi, Moses, Solomon, Lycurgus, Solon, Draco, Confucius, and Augustus. The North Wall Frieze shows lawgivers from the time after Jesus and includes representations of Justinian, Muhammad, Charlemagne, John of England, Louis IX of France, Hugo Grotius, Sir William Blackstone, John Marshall, and Napoleon.

quote:

Domestically - no. . . Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).


taking passages out of context, perhaps? This does not describe MY muslim neighbors, at all.

You do know, that Muslims could do the same to us Christians. By taking passages out of context and making us look like total "weirdos", just like those e-mails try to make Muslims look like "weirdos".....they could claim that Christians believe in killing their own children:

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. And they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.' Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear.

Exodus 21:17
He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

and, we ALL KNOW that there are many, many more "examples" of such passages.....that, if "followed" as it is "written" in Scripture, we'd look like the "strange" religion.....

quote:

Socially - no. . . Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.


wow...that's a new one to me. we're good friends with our Muslim neighbors....and their "extended" family....and other friends....

As far as "good Muslims"? Hmmm......perhaps it's the people of Westboro Baptist Church....or the Branch Davidians....or the FLDS-cult....who think THEY are living the way "good Christians" should live.....and, all others are not. (Could it be that they are all just as radically "fundamentally radical" as any Muslim who would entirely AGREE with the items in the OP?)

more than anything.....the e-mails that contain that "information" preys upon the American's ignorance, and lack of knowledge, of Islam....



Leon_Figg3 -> RE: Breaking down cultural walls (8/6/2008 10:29:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kernsfamily

As far as "good Muslims"? Hmmm......perhaps it's the people of Westboro Baptist Church....or the Branch Davidians....or the FLDS-cult....who think THEY are living the way "good Christians" should live.....and, all others are not. (Could it be that they are all just as radically "fundamentally radical" as any Muslim who would entirely AGREE with the items in the OP?)

more than anything.....the e-mails that contain that "information" preys upon the American's ignorance, and lack of knowledge, of Islam....

kernsfamily,
I think you make an important point.

Many people, myself included (at times) get caught up in histaria caused by "information" that is designed (puposely, or unitentionally) to target America's ignorance and general lack of knowledge.

It may be that part of the point, of this thread is to point out how easily our ignorance and lack of knowledge could be played on by both sides. The sense I get is that Obama believes that it is very easy for all of us (a a country) to break down cultural walls and all get along. The truth of the matter is that it is not at all that easy. How long have we Americans been dealing with the issue of slavery in our history and the resulting racism? This is why it is important for us to have some idea about the people and institutions that have influenced a person who is seeking the highest office in the land.

Obama should know better than to indicate that breaking down cultural walls is an easy matter.

People within cultures tend to jealously hold onto their beliefs, and protect them. In the case of Islam, from my own listening and understanding, it is made more difficult because much of it is so contradictory, clouded, and dependent on who one talks to and their own understanding (much like us Christians).

The key, as I believe you pointed out, was that it is up to each of us to break down our own "cultural walls", and avoid the "ignorance" pedlers rather than to look to the government or a political candidate to break down those wals for us.



OneJohn410 -> RE: Breaking down cultural walls (8/6/2008 3:56:56 PM)

I personally didn't like the email.

It takes on the opinion that for someone to be 'good' to their faith, they are going to have to be 'bad' to the laws, culture, way of life, whatever of whatever country in which they live. It also presupposes that anyone that looks like they are Muslim are truly of that persuasion, and couldn't possibly have converted to another faith, or dropped faith entirely from their own beliefs.

It also suggests that someone visiting overseas is not going to be welcome at all whatsoever.

Now, to leave the USA and go visit a country in the middle of factional uprisings, and unstable government, then sure, you might find yourself very unwelcome indeed.

Kettle responding to the pot, there's definitely going to be some cultural differences that are held very preciously and viewed as very important in one's belief that get knocked around by others quite often. The email mentioned had an ending that shouldn't all persons of Arabian appearance be scrutinized more closely since they subscribe to such radical differences in everything that was mentioned. As was mentioned, it's not just stir up the hysteria, it's prove in an email 'burp' why the world can't be civil- that we've been written out of peaceful coexistence.

For this to be true, there'd be no good reason whatsoever to think of helping a country to establish its own police force and own government.

Thanks for the replies, all.
OneJohn410



Rufas2000 -> RE: Breaking down cultural walls (8/6/2008 11:04:01 PM)

quote:

Seriously, Mr. Beene, that be alll the thinkin yew kan due? My dawg coulda typt yo thinkin' me tinks.


You do realize its satire, right? Reread the post, look at some of the words he spelt correctly, which are much harder than some that he misspelt (intenionally). I think our friend fashions himself a mini Colbert.

On one thread where he posted I explained what all the misspellings were referring to (The "Rush Signs New Deal" thread, a fun one to be sure). I confess that he (or she but the character is definitely a "he") got me this time. The only one I'm fairly sure about is "patriottic", which is saying that maybe some people have been brainwashed into thinking America is so great and so their "declarations of loyalty" for America are involuntary, almost like a tic.

And of course its a general slam against ultra conservatives and their (perceived) lack of intelligence & critical thinking skills.

Note that I don't agree with those thoughts but that is what I believe he / she is saying.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Breaking down cultural walls (8/7/2008 12:01:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OneJohn410

Emails fly around these days. The following is purported to be a question asked an American who had worked in Saudi Arabia for 20 years. The question was 'Can Muslims be good Americans?' Of course, the same could be asked of a Muslim, 'Can Americans be good Muslims?' I think the point of this was that Senator Obama was suggesting that three nationalities need to forgo what makes them who they are, and let's all just live in peace in his speech, and that suggesting such is incredibly naive.

Here were the answers in the email:

Theologically - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to Allah, The moon God of Arabia.

Religiously - no. . . . Because no other religion is accepted by His Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256) (Koran).

Scripturally - no. . . Because his allegiance is to the five Pillars of Islam and the Quran.

Geographically - no . . . Because his allegiance is to Mecca, to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no. . . Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically - no. . . Because he must submit to the mullahs (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and destruction of America, the great Satan.

Domestically - no. . . Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34).

Intellectually - no. . . Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically - no. . . . Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran does not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually - no. . . . Because when we declare 'one nation under God,' the Christian's God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as Heavenly Father, nor is he ever called love in The Quran's 99 excellent names.


So I read this, and I've also read of Muslim American missional outreaches. My take on this email is that it is geared toward the very strict Muslims and strict Christians who already have zero tolerance for how a neighbor would choose to live- that by design of long ago any talk about the need for such walls to come down will remain just that- talk. Mr. Obama's whay can't we all drop our differences and all be friends is therefore a suggestion to some to drop their faith and come out on the world playground and let's all have fun- and it just won't happen.

Comments, anyone? I've a hunch this was already covered, but no harm done in finding out.

OneJohn410

I think there is a clear difference between "I'm OK, You're OK." and "Live and let Live." Christianity tells us that we're going to have to go through life dealing with people who have other views about God than we do, and that's ok. We should do our best to show these people the way to being disciples of Jesus, but religious differences have always been a fact of life.

The one thing, though, that I think we do need to do is to get Muslims to accept a government that was formed on )ever so slightly Christian-leaning) Enlightenment values. We need to make sure that every man, woman, and child in this country accepts that even if we become 90% Muslim, freedom of religious expression (including Evangelism- which is contrary to law under most Muslim states) will always be a fact of life.



huangshan -> RE: Breaking down cultural walls (8/7/2008 8:51:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OneJohn410

Emails fly around these days.

Yeah.

Don't trust them.



Jhud -> RE: Breaking down cultural walls (8/7/2008 1:30:40 PM)

quote:

The one thing, though, that I think we do need to do is to get Muslims to accept a government that was formed on )ever so slightly Christian-leaning) Enlightenment values. We need to make sure that every man, woman, and child in this country accepts that even if we become 90% Muslim, freedom of religious expression (including Evangelism- which is contrary to law under most Muslim states) will always be a fact of life.


Who are you trying to convince here - Muslims worldwide, or every American man, woman and child?

Because the latter don't seem to have a problem accepting the 1st amendment.



OneJohn410 -> RE: Breaking down cultural walls (8/7/2008 10:12:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rufas2000

quote:

Seriously, Mr. Beene, that be alll the thinkin yew kan due? My dawg coulda typt yo thinkin' me tinks.


You do realize its satire, right? Reread the post, look at some of the words he spelt correctly, which are much harder than some that he misspelt (intenionally). I think our friend fashions himself a mini Colbert.

On one thread where he posted I explained what all the misspellings were referring to (The "Rush Signs New Deal" thread, a fun one to be sure). I confess that he (or she but the character is definitely a "he") got me this time. The only one I'm fairly sure about is "patriottic", which is saying that maybe some people have been brainwashed into thinking America is so great and so their "declarations of loyalty" for America are involuntary, almost like a tic.

And of course its a general slam against ultra conservatives and their (perceived) lack of intelligence & critical thinking skills.

Note that I don't agree with those thoughts but that is what I believe he / she is saying.

Yes, I recognized it as satire, and maybe it is more beautiful a reply than I gave it credit for. Why, I am honored to have been found worthy of such a well-thought reply. Right up to the kill them all bit. That's when I knew Beene had more to say than was said.

Thanks the same, and for helping clear that up for anyone else who wondered what that was.

OneJohn410



OneJohn410 -> RE: Breaking down cultural walls (8/7/2008 10:23:32 PM)

quote:

Blessedinnyc:
The one thing, though, that I think we do need to do is to get Muslims to accept a government that was formed on )ever so slightly Christian-leaning) Enlightenment values. We need to make sure that every man, woman, and child in this country accepts that even if we become 90% Muslim, freedom of religious expression (including Evangelism- which is contrary to law under most Muslim states) will always be a fact of life.


If I read this right, Muslims migrating to become U.S. citizens should be provided the knowldge to understand that they are not expected to drop their faith and/or not feel they cannot practice it. Also, that though they believe theirs is the one true faith, there's going to be many other U.S. citizens with freedom of public expression of their faith all about them?

OneJohn410



lightshineon -> RE: Breaking down cultural walls (8/8/2008 1:29:55 AM)

I do not think, we can live in peace, because we are very different. Beware of false prophets who say peace, peace.



huangshan -> RE: Breaking down cultural walls (8/8/2008 6:21:47 AM)

I imagine people thought the same way in France and Germany sixty years ago. Seventy years ago, it would have been even more unthinkable. Look at them today.

War is too destructive these days, and is the last (and very remote) resort between rational actors. War is something that poor countries do to each other, whereas in the past it was the exclusive realm of wealthy countries. The paradigm has flipped. Where the world gets richer, the wars will be smaller and less frequent.



OneJohn410 -> RE: Breaking down cultural walls (8/9/2008 2:08:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OneJohn410

quote:

Blessedinnyc:
The one thing, though, that I think we do need to do is to get Muslims to accept a government that was formed on )ever so slightly Christian-leaning) Enlightenment values. We need to make sure that every man, woman, and child in this country accepts that even if we become 90% Muslim, freedom of religious expression (including Evangelism- which is contrary to law under most Muslim states) will always be a fact of life.


If I read this right, Muslims migrating to become U.S. citizens should be provided the knowldge to understand that they are not expected to drop their faith and/or not feel they cannot practice it. Also, that though they believe theirs is the one true faith, there's going to be many other U.S. citizens with freedom of public expression of their faith all about them?

OneJohn410

I'm asking, because if that's what you were saying, I certainly agree with it.



OneJohn410 -> RE: Breaking down cultural walls (8/9/2008 2:34:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

I do not think, we can live in peace, because we are very different. Beware of false prophets who say peace, peace.


We are very different, and legal emigrants arrive here with that difference, and now they live in the USA. They have been. There was incredible disbelief expressed by nationalities here of the destruction of the lives in and around the Twin Towers. Churches are in ministry to newcomers all the time. Flip the coin over, and a US citizen try to emigrate there. See if churches there are also in outreach. Ask them are they welcomed.

To boldly say those walls that devide us must come down, what of those walls? Do they create quarrel, anger, mistrust? Or have they been up there so long that they create a medium for communication, a sense of security, a feeling of close distance. Consider such before pushing heavy change. Given the option to move everyone out of their comfort zone, would that be the thing to do? And for what good? The way it sounded, it wasn't just move them out, there was also a sense of everyone will like it, and so why try to return.

OneJohn410



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