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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 12:33:39 AM
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makarizo
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John 1:1 and the word was God............1:14 and the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us.
Joh 14:6 "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Mat 14:33 And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God's Son!"
(Jesus didn't stop them like that angel in Rev 19 did, why was it okay with Jesus for them to worship Him?)
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 12:37:11 AM
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armydude
Posts: 16899
Joined: 2/12/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
Mat 14:33 And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God's Son!"
(Jesus didn't stop them like that angel in Rev 19 did, why was it okay with Jesus for them to worship Him?)
That is actually excellent proof. For someone to accept worship (which is acceptable only for God) and not be worthy of that worship that person would be a blasphemer. That would take away from the "spotless lamb" idea unless Jesus is actually God like He said.
_____________________________
You can choose to be pitiful. Or you can choose to be powerful. But you cannot choose to be both.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 1:38:29 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1767
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fortydays
I know he claimed to be the Messiah or son of God. BUT did he ever say he was GOD. When I pray, I do pray to Jesus or God. BUt I really was wondering if I am doing this right. Did Jesus say he was God. Someone told me on my fishing website that Jesus never said he was God.
Fortydays:
Jesus of Nazareth generally referred to Himself as "the Son of Man", but even this title, according to the book of Daniel, was a reference to the Son of God. To the Jews, the Son of God was God, and because of this, the Jews accused Him of blasphemy because Christ made Himself EQUAL to God (Jn. 5:18).
However, there are specific occasions recorded in Scripture where He outright called Himself "I AM" and that is a name reserved exclusively for the LORD God Almighty. When He said "Before Abraham was, I AM" (Jn.8:58) or "Except ye believe that I AM, ye shall die in your sins" or when He said "I and my Father are one" (Jn. 10:30) or "I am in the Father, and the Father in me" (Jn.14:10,11), Jesus was plainly stating that He is God.
quote:
This is what was posted to me while I was trying to defend. I was at a lose for words! Help please....
"The plain fact is that there is not a single verse in the entire New Testament that makes the claim that Jesus is God. If such verses did indeed exist, then Christianity wouldn’t be splintered into so many hundreds, if not thousands, of sects, and the councils of Nicea and Constantinople would not have taken place to determine Jesus’ divinity."
This is simply a bold-faced lie (no doubt inspired by the Father of Lies -- the Devil). We read in 1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness, GOD [THEOS] was manifest in the flesh" (KJV). Then we have in Colossians 2:9 "For in Him dwelleth ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD bodily".
quote:
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (KJV)
Jesus clearly states that he is less than God. That which is less than God cannot be the same as God.
It is true that within the Godhead, God the Father is "the Head" of Christ (1 Cor. 11:3). But this in no way indicates that Christ is "less than God", since God the Father addresses God the Son in this manner: "But unto the Son He saith, Thy throne O GOD is for ever and ever... therefore GOD, even thy God hath anointed thee with the oil of glandess above thy fellows..." (Heb. 1:8-12).
quote:
Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. (KJV)
Would God grow in wisdom and stature? Would God grow in His own favor?
Jesus was fully Man as well as fully God. As a man He grew in wisdom and stature, but as God He remained God. This is a mystery -- "the mystery of godliness".
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 7:17:26 AM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
(earthless) Seeing that you want to focus on John chapter 10 where Jesus said in verse 30, “I and the Father are one.” I want to repeat again that at first glance, this might not seem to be a claim to be God.
However, look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement, “We are not stoning you for any of these, replied the Jews, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33).
The Jews understood Jesus’ statement to be a claim to be God. In the following verses, Jesus never corrects the Jews by saying, “I did not claim to be God.” That indicates Jesus was truly saying He was God by declaring, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30).
(theo) The Jews did not "understand Jesus' statement" at all. In fact, the Jews never understood a thing he taught them. THAT is why he spoke to them in parables and hidden sayings. They had no love for God's word, and could not understand what Jesus preached.
John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
There are many things Jesus did not say. You are making the wrong argument, "Jesus never corrects the Jews by saying, I did not claim to be God.” That is true. He never said "I did not claim to be God. You know what? I never said "I did not claim to be God." Does that make me God? It is a fallacious argument. You really should read my post before you respond to it.
Jesus very much DID correct the Jewish crowd. I will post it again for those who can't read the fine print of my first post.
WHAT JESUS SAID:
"I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE" - John 10:30
WHAT THE JEWS HEARD JESUS SAY:
"I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE." - John 10:30
WHAT THE JEWS SAID JESUS' WORDS MEANT:
"THOU BEING A MAN, MAKEST THYSELF GOD" - John 10:33
(WHAT FOLLOWS IS A CORRECTION OF WHAT THE JEWS SAID HIS WORDS MEANT. WHAT JESUS SAID HIS WORDS MEANT:
"I SAID I AM THE SON OF GOD." - John 10:36
Furthermore, and I notice you did not address this;
The Jews made themselves God if your argument is a true standard;
John 8:41 "...we have one Father, even God."
If the Jews really believed that saying God is their father is equivalent to "making thyself God," then they were all guilty of the same claim.
Again, you did not address this one either.
John 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself THE SON OF GOD.
Which is what Jesus claimed his words meant in John 10:36
"I SAID I AM THE SON OF GOD." -
So the Jews not only lied, and attempted murder, they purjured themselves at his trial. And ANYONE who claims Jesus did not correct the Jews does not know what he is talking about. They must explain Jesus' words in John 10, as well as why the Jews changed their accusation between this attempt to murder him, and his trial when they changed their testimony to coincide with what he said his words meant.
_____________________________
The most profound thing I learned in scripture is -
That God, who knows me best -
Loves me anyway.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 7:59:55 AM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fortydays
I know he claimed to be the Messiah or son of God. BUT did he ever say he was GOD. When I pray, I do pray to Jesus or God. BUt I really was wondering if I am doing this right. Did Jesus say he was God. Someone told me on my fishing website that Jesus never said he was God.
This is what has me wondering:
This is what was posted to me while I was trying to defend. I was at a lose for words! Help please....
"The plain fact is that there is not a single verse in the entire New Testament that makes the claim that Jesus is God. If such verses did indeed exist, then Christianity wouldn’t be splintered into so many hundreds, if not thousands, of sects, and the councils of Nicea and Constantinople would not have taken place to determine Jesus’ divinity."
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (KJV)
Jesus clearly states that he is less than God. That which is less than God cannot be the same as God.
Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. (KJV)
Would God grow in wisdom and stature? Would God grow in His own favor?
Look at all the missed opportunities, IF indeed Jesus IS God:
JESUS AND THE MISSED OPPORTUNITIES
With all the times Jesus said "I am..." Something, why did he never say "I am God?"
John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
John 6:48 I am that bread of life.
John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
John 10:36 ... I am the Son of God?
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Jesus even admitted being king, before Pilate. Another opportunity missed to proclaim himself deity.
John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
ANOTHER missed opp-ortunity to proclaim Jesus as God, is made by John
John 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Some claim Jesus raised himself from the dead, proving himself to be God. But even Paul missed the opportunity to proclaim Jesus as God - Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
All who make claims have testified Jesus is shown to be the son of God by the miracles and wonders that surrounded his life.
_____________________________
The most profound thing I learned in scripture is -
That God, who knows me best -
Loves me anyway.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 8:14:18 AM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
Mat 14:33 And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God's Son!"
(Jesus didn't stop them like that angel in Rev 19 did, why was it okay with Jesus for them to worship Him?)
That is actually excellent proof. For someone to accept worship (which is acceptable only for God) and not be worthy of that worship that person would be a blasphemer. That would take away from the "spotless lamb" idea unless Jesus is actually God like He said.
It is a fallacy to teach that no one was to receive worship but God. God never said any such thing. He said "Thou shalt worship no other GOD BEFORE me." The old testament is full of examples that show people doing the same thing before other people, as they did when they worshipped before God.
In the Old Testament, "Worship" is translated from a Hebrew word pronounced approximately "shaw-khaw;" Which word is used in many referent passages of scripture not pertaining to worship to God, but rather to obeisence such as a wife to her husband, people to their king, men to angels, and brothers to brothers.
Abraham's servant "bowed his head and worshipped Jehovah." [Gen 24:26]
Israel worshipped Jehovah [Exo 4:31;12:27]
When three men appeared to Abraham, he "bowed himself toward the
ground" in greeting them. It is the same word "shaw-khaw" that pertains to worship toward Jehovah. [Gen 18:2]
Lot also "bowed himself with his face toward the ground, (Shaw-khaw) upon seeing two men approach. [Gen 19:1]
Abraham "shaw-khaw" himself to the children of Heth [Gen 23:7,12]
Isaac's blessing upon his son Jacob, thinking he was Esau, had this to say - "Let people serve thee, and nations bow down (shaw-khaw) to thee; Be Lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons (shaw-khaw) bow down to thee..." [Gen 22:29]
Jacob (shaw-khaw) bowed himself to the ground seven times when he met his brother Esau. [Gen 33:3]
Jacobs wives handmaidens and their children (shaw-khaw) bowed themselves to Esau. [Gen 33:6]
Leah and her children bowed down (shaw-khaw) to Esau [Gen 33:7]
Joseph angered his brothers in telling his dream, wherein their sheaves of wheat bowed (shaw-khaw) to his sheaf of wheat [Gen 37:7]
Joseph had another dream in which the sun, moon, and stars (shaw-khaw) bowed down to Joseph. [Gen 37:9]
Joseph's brothers did indeed (shaw-khaw) bow down their heads in obesience to Joseph [Gen 43:28]
Jacob told Judah "thy father's children shall (shaw-khaw) bow down before thee" [Gen 49:8]
Moses (shaw-khaw) bowed down to his father-in-law [Exo 18:7]
Israel was told to (shaw-khaw) reverence Jehovah's sanctuary [Lev 26:2]
Joshua (shaw-khaw) did worship to the captain of the host of Jehovah [Josh 5:14] He bowed to an angel.
Ruth (shaw-khaw) bowed herself to the ground before Boaz [Ruth 2:10]
David (shaw-khaw) to Jonathan [1 Sam 20:41]
David (shaw-khaw) to King Saul [ 1 Sam 24:8]
Abigail (shaw-khaw) to David [1 Sam 25:23]
King Saul (shaw-khaw) to the deceased Samuel [1Sam 28:13-14]
An Amelekite, who slew King Saul, (shaw-khaw) to David [2Sam 1:2]
Mephibosheth, son of jonathan (shaw-khaw) before David the king [2Sam 9:6]
David (shaw-khaw) Jehovah [2 Sam 12:20]
A woman of Tekoah (shaw-khaw) to david [2 Sam 14:4]
Joab (shaw-khaw) to David [2 Sam 14:22]
Kushi (shaw-khaw) to Joab [2 Sam 18:21]
Bathsheba (shaw-khaw) before David [1 Kngs 1:15]
Nathan the prophet (shaw-khaw) before David the king [1 Kngs 1:23]
King David "bowed himself (shaw-khaw) upon the bed" [1 kngs 1:47]
King Solomon bowed himself (shaw-khaw) unto Bathsheba, his mother [1 Kngs 2:19]
Sons of the prophets bowed (shaw-khaw) to Elisha [2 Kngs 2:15]
Shunamite woman bowed (shaw-khaw) to Elisha [2 Kngs 4:37]
Namman bowed to (shaw-khaw) Rimmon [2 Kngs 5:17]
Ornan bowed (shaw-khaw) himself to David [1 chron 21:21]
Israel worshipped (shaw-khaw) Jehovah and king David [1 Chron 29:20]
princes of Judah made obeisance (shaw-khaw) to the king [2 Chron 24:17]
The host of heaven worshipped (shaw-khaw) Jehovah [Neh 9:6]
Servants reverenced (shaw-khaw) Haman [Esther 3:2]
all Gods worship (shaw-khaw) Jehovah [Psa 97:7]
In the New Testament, "worship" is translated from Greek "proskuneo"
Magi wanted to worship (proskuneo) the newborn Jesus [Mat 2:2]
Satan requested worship (proskuneo) from Jesus [Mat 4:9]
Thou shalt worship (proskuneo) the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou worship. [Mat 4:10]
A leper worshipped (proskuneo) Jesus [Mat 8:2]
A Ruler worshipped (proskuneo) Jesus [Mat 9:18]
Disciples worshipped (proskuneo) the son of God [mat 14:33]
Canaanite woman worshipped (proskuneo) Jesus [Mat 15;25]
Zebedee's children's mother worshipped (proskuneo) Jesus [Mat 20:20]
Mary Magdaline and Mary worshipped (proskuneo) Jesus [Mat 28:9]
eleven disciples worshipped (proskuneo) him [Mat 28:17]
Legion worshipped (proskuneo) Jesus [Mark 5:7]
Soldiers, mocking, worshipped (proskuneo) Jesus [Mark 15:16]
Disciples worshipped (proskuneo) Jesus [Luke 24:52]
True worshippers will worship (proskuneo) the father [John 4:23]
Blind man, cured, worshipped (proskuneo) Jesus [John 9:38]
Cornelius worshipped (proskuneo) Peter and was corrected [Acts 10:25]
Angels are told to worship (proskuneo) Resurrected Christ [Heb 1:6]
Argument has been made that Jesus failed to correct those who worshipped him, therefore he must be God. BUT, what is overlooked is that they did not WORSHIP HIM AS GOD. They worshipped him as THE SON OF God. "Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth Thou art the SON OF GOD." [Mat 14:33] Those who worshipped him did not understand that they were worshipping God, but indeed, were worshipping his son.
Worship in the old Testament was the same as giving obeisance to any authority, whether king, judge, prince, or husband.
Worship in the New testament was limited to God and his son. Jesus was never worshipped as God, but only as the son of God.
Worship in both testaments involves yielding one's self to another's authority, or acknowledging another's importance.
_____________________________
The most profound thing I learned in scripture is -
That God, who knows me best -
Loves me anyway.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 8:43:21 AM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
(fortydays) This is what was posted to me while I was trying to defend. I was at a lose for words! Help please....
"The plain fact is that there is not a single verse in the entire New Testament that makes the claim that Jesus is God. If such verses did indeed exist, then Christianity wouldn’t be splintered into so many hundreds, if not thousands, of sects, and the councils of Nicea and Constantinople would not have taken place to determine Jesus’ divinity."
(ezra) This is simply a bold-faced lie (no doubt inspired by the Father of Lies -- the Devil). We read in 1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness, GOD [THEOS] was manifest in the flesh" (KJV).
(theo)
Consider the proper approach to reaching proper conclusions.
Premise: WORKS OF GOD WERE MANIFESTED IN MAN BORN BLIND,
Example: "And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him." [John 9:2-3]
CONCLUSION: God was manifested in the flesh of the man born blind.
PREMISE: The life of Jesus is manifested in our bodies:
2 Cor 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest "in" our body. 11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest "in" our mortal flesh.
CONCLUSION: The life of Jesus is manifested in our bodies; that does not make us Jesus.
PREMISE: Apostles are manifested in our conscience:
"Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest "IN" your consciences." [II Cor 5:11]
CONCLUSION: "Manifested" does not mean "to become in." It means "made known to."
"GOD WAS MANIFESTED IN FLESH" DOES NOT MAKE GOD FLESH:
1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: (He who) was manifest "IN" flesh, justified "IN" spirit, seen of angels, preached "UNTO the Gentiles, believed on "IN" the world, received up "INTO" glory.
"Manifest in flesh" does not mean God became flesh, but rather, God made himself known "IN," or "UNTO" those who are flesh. "THE" is not in the passage. It is flesh, not "the flesh." God was manifest in flesh, or clearly revealed in flesh, as flesh came to understand clearly, the wonderful things of God.
SCRIPTURE PLAINLY TELLS US THAT GOD DID NOT COME "IN" THE FLESH, BUT SENT HIS SON:
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own son "in" the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin "in" the flesh." [Rom 8:3]
And just in case you try to make a case for Christ being in the "likeness" of flesh, instead of being "in the flesh" let me offer this bit of scripture - "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God. Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ is come "IN" flesh, is of God." [I John 4:2]
Exactly how was God "manifest" in flesh?
"This is now the third time that Jesus "SHEWED" himself to his disciples after that he was risen from the dead." [John 21:14]"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
"God" was made known to flesh every time a miracle was performed, every time one was raised form the dead, every time a leper was healed, God was made know in the act. And it was in FLESH that this aknowledgment took place in the form of gratitude and prayer.
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby ye must be saved.
Now, when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
And beholding the man which was healed standing with them, they could say nothing agianst it.
But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves. Saying, what shall we do to these men? For that indeed A NOTABLE MIRACLE HATH BEEN DONE BY THEM IS MANIFEST TO ALL THEM THAT DWELL IN JERUSALEM; AND WE CANNOT DENY IT."
The miracle was not manifested; what was manifested was the knowledge that a miracle had been performed BY THEM.
But, that it spread no further among the people, let us straitly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name.And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.
But Peter and John answered and said unto them, WHETHER IT BE RIGHT IN THE SIGHT OF GOD TO HEARKEN UNTO YOU MORE THAN GOD, JUDGE YE.
Peter and John continued to manifest God to those of flesh, by "speaking the things we have seen and heard." And GOD WAS GLORIFIED, BECAUSE HE WAS MANIFESTED IN THEIR TESTIMONY.
For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.So, when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people; FOR ALL MEN GLORIFIED GOD FOR THAT WHICH WAS DONE. [Acts 4:10-21]
"Made manifest" is from the Greek "phaneroo" which means to "render apparent." It is used in such passages as John 14:22 "Judas saith unto him, (Not Iscariot), Lord, how is it that thou
wilt manifest thyself to us, and not unto the world?"
The word does not mean "come in the flesh" because Jesus Christ came in the flesh whether the apostles believe it or not, and whether the world accepts it or not. But whatever Jesus did when he "manifested" himself to his disciples, and not to the world, it had nothing to do with "coming in the flesh."
Second: God was "manifest" in the unholy and unrighteous men of the earth; And in the man who we know as Jesus Christ. "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is MANIFEST in THEM; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: [Rom 1:18-20]
THAT WHICH MAY BE KNOWN OF GOD IS MANIFEST IN UNRIGHTEOUS MEN. Unrighteous men are NOT GOD, and God did not come to earh in the flesh of unrighteous men.
"21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. "...dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen." [Rom 1:21-25]
"28 And even as they did not like to retain God "in" their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. [Rom 1:28-32]
While it is a fact that theologians have taught for centuries, that God came to earth in the flesh of Jesus Christ, it is not what the scriptures teach, by virtue of the inherent meaning in the words used by the new testament authors.
And Jesus Christ is not the ONLY means by which the mysteries of God are made manifest; "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ,according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is MADE MANIFEST, and BY the SCRIPTURES OF THE PROPHETS, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: [Rom 16:25-26]
God being manifested in flesh does NOT mean God came to earth in flesh. It means God was aknowledged by flesh as men learned that God is the source of the miracles, signs, and wonders performed by the apostles.
_____________________________
The most profound thing I learned in scripture is -
That God, who knows me best -
Loves me anyway.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 9:27:07 AM
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Abishua
Posts: 53
Joined: 8/2/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
Actually this is untrue. When Elohim is used as a title, it always refers to God (the Almighty).....
benelchi,
I think you may have your titles confused. "Adonai" is a title which always refers to God in Scriptures. Elohim is a title given to God, and on special occasions to men (trees and mountains too!)
Here are some examples:
* Exo 4:16 “And he shall speak for you to the people. And it shall be that he shall be a mouth for you, and you shall be an elohim for him."
* Exo 7:1 "So YHWH said to Mosheh, “See, I have made you an elohim to Pharaoh, and Aharon your brother is your prophet."
* Jdg 13:22 "And Manowahò said to his wife, “We shall certainly die, because we have seen Elohim!”
* Psa 8:5 "Yet You have made him a little less than Elohim, And have crowned him with esteem and splendour."
* Psa 82:6 "I, I said, “You are elohim, And all of you are sons of the Most High."
in each of the above verses, the title elohim is given to a single man or angel(s)
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 9:36:36 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6134
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Any response to those that had the Jews in John 10 were not going to stone Jesus because of His claim that He is God? I have shown that Scripture plainly shows that it was that exact reason they were going to stone Him.
For Theo, Abishua, and the others - are you Christian? Sorry I have to ask, but your posts and their context would be a lot clearer if we all (just like in a round table discussion of adults) laid our cards on the table and stopped with the shadowy pretenses.
Is that too much to ask? Am I overstepping bounds here by asking?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 11:49:04 AM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Any response to those that had the Jews in John 10 were not going to stone Jesus because of His claim that He is God? I have shown that Scripture plainly shows that it was that exact reason they were going to stone Him.
(theo) Try post #79
quote:
(earthless) For Theo, Abishua, and the others - are you Christian? Sorry I have to ask, but your posts and their context would be a lot clearer if we all (just like in a round table discussion of adults) laid our cards on the table and stopped with the shadowy pretenses.
(theo) Why are you in shadows, pretending? Pretending what? And you already know the answer to your question.
quote:
(earthless) Is that too much to ask? Am I overstepping bounds here by asking?
(theo) I think you are desparate. I fail to see where anyone's background is going to change whether, in scriptures, Jesus claimed he is God.
Jesus is my elder brother, and he did not tell ME of any such.
_____________________________
The most profound thing I learned in scripture is -
That God, who knows me best -
Loves me anyway.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 12:28:47 PM
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makarizo
Posts: 2980
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Even in Acts!!
Act 9:3 As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him;
Act 9:4 and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"
Act 9:5 And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" And He said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting,
Act 9:6 but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do."
If this is not Jesus claiming to be God, than what is it?
it is just like I said in post #48......
without the revelation, one can never understand.
just beware of the spirit of the antichrist
1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus - is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. ........
It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that testify:
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 1:56:29 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6134
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
(theo) Why are you in shadows, pretending? Pretending what? And you already know the answer to your question.
No, I do not know the answer to my question. Are you a Christian? Is Abishua a Christian? I do not know the answers to those questions.
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
(theo) I think you are desparate.
No, I just tire of the games many with hidden agendas play.
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
I fail to see where anyone's background is going to change whether, in scriptures, Jesus claimed he is God.
It makes a world of a difference if someone is a Muslim, a Oneness Pentecostal, a Mormon, a JW, etc..
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
Jesus is my elder brother, and he did not tell ME of any such.
Is Jesus God, your Lord and Savior?
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 2:02:53 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11469
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quote:
God spoke of Himself in those terms, not Jesus.
From Isaiah: "Thus said YHWH, Sovereign of Israel, and his Redeemer, YHWH of hosts, ‘I am the First and I am the Last, besides Me there is no Elohim."
From the book of Revelation: “I am the ‘Alpha’ and the ‘Omega’, Beginning and End,” says God “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Check out Revelation 1:17-18
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Jesus here DID claim to be the First and the Last!
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Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 4:09:39 PM
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terryjohn
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"JESUS AND THE MISSED OPPORTUNITIES"
With all the times Jesus said "I am..." Something, why did he never say "I am God?"
Matthew 16: he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?" 14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 20 Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.
Notice the difference between what men say and what men of God say.
Note also that men cannot ever be convinced of Peters confirmation by words, argument or logic for if God Himself does not reveal it to men how could we?
You will also notice that Jesus was also intent on keeping this secret for a very good reason much in the same way faith should not be attaind by argument or logic for God gives it least men think they can blunder the grace of God.
Much of the problem with beleiving that Christ was not God in the flesh is that you then have to say who he was then if he was not God and once having said that he is not God, then you really have nothing against the cults who say the same thing. Why even men of great learning and no faith can say he was not God.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 4:48:04 PM
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Kath
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Lets not forget, we are suppose to be helping Fortydays with his discussions with other people about Jesus claiming to be God. With all this arguing amongst yourselves how is he suppose to glean what to say to others? You guys are losing focus.
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Dilbert's TRUE QUOTES FROM INDUHVIDUALS
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 5:01:21 PM
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justasheep
Posts: 44
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quote:
Jesus is my elder brother, and he did not tell ME of any such.
When I see Mormons sharing their faith and living seemingly "good" lives, I am often convicted. While I love to share the gospel, I don't seem as dedicated as these. But then when I see a quote such as yours, well I thank God that he has caused me to trust soley in the finished work of Christ which is the only way to the Father. Can I share a passage with you that could shed some light on your heretical views.
In Colosians 1: 13-18 says,
13] Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
[14] In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
[18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Mormonism often uses this passage to show that Jesus was not eternal and was literally born of God. God does not have any spiritual wives and he's certainly not procreating up in heaven. You see firstborn is not first in the line of those who are born but rather is a word that means preeminence in rank or order. The original reader would have understood this and so does today's reader due to context. Your religion must take things out of context, because you don't believe in the finished work of Christ as the sole propitiation for your sin.
If Jesus as this passage so clearly states was the creator of all things, and ruler of all things; How could he also be created. And how on earth could he be your elder brother? Paul's purpose in this passage was to show that Jesus is preeminent in every way. He was before all things thus Jesus is eternal and while this certainly is a mystery, the book of mormon cannot shead any light.
In the final analysis, it is not the strange story of Jesus visiting some indigenous people in South America, nor the Holy Undergarments, nor the burning in the bosom that makes your religion so strange and heretical but rather your views on Jesus and the Gospel that ultimately proves that yours is a cult of the first order.
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Life is wasted if we do not grasp the glory of the cross, cheerish it for the treasure that it is, and cleave to it as the highest price of every pleasure and the deepest comfort of every pain.
John Piper
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 5:32:49 PM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fortydays
I know he claimed to be the Messiah or son of God. BUT did he ever say he was GOD. When I pray, I do pray to Jesus or God. BUt I really was wondering if I am doing this right. Did Jesus say he was God. Someone told me on my fishing website that Jesus never said he was God.
This is what has me wondering:
This is what was posted to me while I was trying to defend. I was at a lose for words! Help please....
"The plain fact is that there is not a single verse in the entire New Testament that makes the claim that Jesus is God. If such verses did indeed exist, then Christianity wouldn’t be splintered into so many hundreds, if not thousands, of sects, and the councils of Nicea and Constantinople would not have taken place to determine Jesus’ divinity."
John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (KJV)
Jesus clearly states that he is less than God. That which is less than God cannot be the same as God.
Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. (KJV)
Would God grow in wisdom and stature? Would God grow in His own favor?
I have tried to stick to your theme, but realize that much of the rhetoric coming back at me is involved with proving Jesus IS God instead of dealing with whether he CLAIMED to be God. THAT makes it a very different argument. And THAT can be very confusing.
If the administration allows a response to the issue of "Is Jesus God" I will try to deal with THAT issue.
In the interum, I will simply apply myself to the issue of "Did Jesus ever CLAIM to be GOd."
Jesus never made such a claim? When the apostles or Pilate, or Herod, or anyone asked him who he was, he always responded with a question, "Who do YOU...", "Who do people...?" and etc.
There is no scripture that can be pointed out and it be said, "Look, here it is, here is the one where Jesus claimed to be God."
There are many scriptures however, from which people can make claims as to the inherent teaching we are to glean therefrom. And the internet is rampant with great claims about what scripture alledgedly said, or meant by what it DID say. These are highly interpretative though, and subject to much discussion.
I would be willing to debate any ONE person on the issue of whether Jesus IS God; but there would have to be rules strictly enforced as to what claims can be made and what constitutes rebuttal.
But I digress. Jesus never made such a claim. The question under consideration is "Did Jesus ever SAY I am God?" The answer is no!
_____________________________
The most profound thing I learned in scripture is -
That God, who knows me best -
Loves me anyway.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 5:34:40 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6134
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
But I digress. Jesus never made such a claim. The question under consideration is "Did Jesus ever SAY I am God?" The answer is no!
Jesus did claim to be God, repeatedly.
theo_book, is Jesus God, your Lord and Savior? Or simply your elder brother and 'a' god, one of many that exists and will exist, each with their own spirit families and planets?
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 5:44:25 PM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
But I digress. Jesus never made such a claim. The question under consideration is "Did Jesus ever SAY I am God?" The answer is no!
Jesus did claim to be God, repeatedly.
theo_book, is Jesus God, your Lord and Savior? Or simply your elder brother and 'a' god, one of many that exists and will exist, each with their own spirit families and planets?
Clear it with administration first.
_____________________________
The most profound thing I learned in scripture is -
That God, who knows me best -
Loves me anyway.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 6:03:12 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6134
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Moderators/Administrators
Is it OK for theo_book to answer my questions in post 93?
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 6:11:51 PM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Moderators/Administrators
Is it OK for theo_book to answer my questions in post 93?
Moderators/Administrators
What is the board policy on one/on/one debates? Can a debate be set up with rules of engagement? Or are debates not allowed?
The issue is based on the deity of Christ.
Thank you.
_____________________________
The most profound thing I learned in scripture is -
That God, who knows me best -
Loves me anyway.
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