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RE: Once Again... - 8/3/2008 2:01:31 PM
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earthless
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I for one am glad they made a profit - when you consider all the work they do, the good they provide, the risk they take and the browbeating by anti-free-market, anti-capitalist, class envyists... it works for me. I need gas, they provide, I pay for it, everyone wins.
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RE: Once Again... - 8/3/2008 2:06:56 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1983
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quote:
I need gas, they provide, I pay for it, everyone wins.
I totally agreed with that mentality, until I saw the effects, financially on people. There are those who are hurting financially now, who never did in the past. My parents being some of them.
Not everybody is winning now. Choices are having to be made whether
to pay certain bills or put gas in the car to get to work. Minimum wagers are wondering what they are working for. How much is left per week after the fill up their cars?
Food or gas, for many people. Absolutely no room for extras and even some necessities.
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Luke 8:16
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RE: Once Again... - 8/3/2008 2:13:58 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I totally agreed with that mentality, until I saw the effects, financially on people. There are those who are hurting financially now, who never did in the past. My parents being some of them.
Not everybody is winning now. Choices are having to be made whether
to pay certain bills or put gas in the car to get to work. Minimum wagers are wondering what they are working for. How much is left per week after the fill up their cars?
And you do know that is not the fault of the oil companies, right? It's a free-market and because of the Democrats in both the House and Senate, we're stuck with our continual dependency on foreign oil.
For instance, I live in the county that has THE highest sales tax in the entire U.S. Our gas averages $4.90 a gallon. Why? Because of evil Exxon and other oil companies? Not so. Largely because I have to pay a HIGH city tax, a HIGH county tax, a HIGH state tax on every single gallon. All of those taxes implemented by a Democratic Mayor, a Democratic County Board President, a Democratic Governor.
All taxing something they had absolutely nothing to do with its provision.
We need to drill here and now.
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Food or gas, for many people. Absolutely no room for extras and even some necessities.
I had someone tell me that the other day... yet every member of their family have a cell phone, they have
cable, high-speed Internet, and several TV's, IPods, two vehicles, two fridges, better clothes than I have.
Heh.
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RE: Once Again... - 8/3/2008 2:24:22 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1983
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quote:
I had someone tell me that the other day... yet every member of their family have a cell phone, they have
cable, high-speed Internet, and several TV's, IPods, two vehicles, two fridges, better clothes than I have.
Heh.
I know about that too. Those aren't the ones I'm referring too.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
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RE: Once Again... - 8/3/2008 2:26:20 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6205
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
I had someone tell me that the other day... yet every member of their family have a cell phone, they have
cable, high-speed Internet, and several TV's, IPods, two vehicles, two fridges, better clothes than I have.
Heh.
I know about that too. Those aren't the ones I'm referring too.
Good, because many people in this country do indeed have a very skewed perspective on what real poverty is.
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RE: Once Again... - 8/3/2008 3:13:05 PM
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Rufas2000
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quote:
quote:
I say thank you exxon for everything you have created and manufactured that allows us to have a truly modern world.
quote:
I think the money they make, excessive or not, is thanks enough for them. I'm willing to say they've earned their money but I won't thank them for only doing what is in their best interest.
It's in our best interest as well.
Thats true but I'm not going to be grateful to anyone or anything that did something because it was in their best interest. The fact that I benefit as well is incidental. Again I'm not going to debate that they earned their money (the dollar amount seems excessive but the profit percentage appears more than reasonable so I offer no opinion on that) but they didn't do it for me or for any of you so my thanks comes from the money I pay for their product.
I am thankful that we have an economic system that features a healthy* balance between freedom and regulation that allows for innovation and a higher quality of life for everyone. But I refuse to ascribe any sort of nobility to corporations who only care about the bottom line.
* I originally said perfect but thats a very dangerous word. We should never be satisfied with the way things are. There is always room for improvement and we the American people should be constantly demanding it from our government (which in some cases but not all would mean getting out of the way).
< Message edited by Rufas2000 -- 8/3/2008 3:24:06 PM >
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RE: Once Again... - 8/3/2008 4:26:53 PM
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colliefan
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Let's climb into the way-back machine into the days of Jimmy "the peanut farmer" Carter. Instead of the greenies holding us hostage, we were held hostage by OPEC.
We had to turn-down our thermostats and wear sweaters. We were to burn candles instead of using light bulbs. A practice which caused many a house fire.
The "brillant" climate experts were predicting that Miami would soon become a ski resort (snow sking, that is) and the peak oil experts were saying we would run out of oil in ten years.
Climbing back into our way-back machine, we arrive in today. We are being held hostage by Pope Al Bore of the Church of Global Warming. We cannot drill for new oil, we are going to melt as did the Wicked Witch of the West, and like the 70's, we will soon run out of oil.
The media makes little mention what profits the government made from the oil companies for no work at all. They don't mention the profits the evil oil companies make are returned to investors. These investors are Granny and Grandpa who need the money from their pension fund to augment their social security.
The ones who deserve the rath of the public are Al Bore, the media who give us Happy Feet and movies of similar ilk, and those who love penguins more than the poor.
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RE: Once Again... - 8/3/2008 5:40:23 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rufas2000
Thats true but I'm not going to be grateful to anyone or anything that did something because it was in their best interest. The fact that I benefit as well is incidental.
So when you go see your doctor and he helps you.. you don't say, 'thank you' because it benefited his practice and pocketbooks?
When your auto mechanic fixes your vehicle, do you not thank him?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Rufas2000
Again I'm not going to debate that they earned their money (the dollar amount seems excessive but the profit percentage appears more than reasonable so I offer no opinion on that) but they didn't do it for me or for any of you so my thanks comes from the money I pay for their product.
I am thankful that we have an economic system that features a healthy* balance between freedom and regulation that allows for innovation and a higher quality of life for everyone. But I refuse to ascribe any sort of nobility to corporations who only care about the bottom line.
It's those corporations that offer the quality of life you and I enjoy. Ever lived in a socialistic or communist country? I have and have family that still does, it's nothing nice.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Rufas2000
* I originally said perfect but thats a very dangerous word. We should never be satisfied with the way things are. There is always room for improvement and we the American people should be constantly demanding it from our government (which in some cases but not all would mean getting out of the way).
Agreed. I am for the free-market system and capitalism. From a secular standpoint, it is what this world needs more of.
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RE: Once Again... - 8/3/2008 7:23:55 PM
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Rufas2000
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quote:
So when you go see your doctor and he helps you.. you don't say, 'thank you' because it benefited his practice and pocketbooks?
When your auto mechanic fixes your vehicle, do you not thank him?
I see your point. But that's people to people relations. Its the polite thing to do. And its under the assumption that the doctor or mechanic went above and beyond for you.
Corporations are definitely not people, nor should they ever be considered people IMHO. Corporations are amoral (note I did not say immoral), people are moral actors (some more moral than others). People make up corporations but when taken together they become a different entity. Every person involved in a corporation "brain trust" (I'm not including the people who work for it, just the CEO types and board of directors and the voting stockholders) has a different set of moral beliefs but they all agree on one thing: they all want a profit.
So it stands to reason that the most profitable option is almost always going to win the day. That may mean cutting thousands of jobs, increasing employee workloads or decreasing benefits, lowering quality of products, moving production overseas. The people who make these decisions probably don't always feel good about them but they can't agree on what the right thing is except that they all agree that the survival and success of the corporation is paramount.
So there it is. And as I grow older I realize that it probably needs to be that way unless they are doing something illegal or close to the edge of it. I don't want to ascribe nobility to entities that do not operate in that realm. This thank you kinda said to me that Exxon was a great force for good in the world. I disagree, they're a great force for profit that has resulted in our good.
BTW: this is strictly applying to huge corporations. I am sure there are many small businesses in this great land of ours that operate with a great sense of moral clarity. Sam Walton started Walmart in such a way but Walton died and Walmart grew. While I certainly won't say they're evil they are not exactly wonderful either.
quote:
It's those corporations that offer the quality of life you and I enjoy. Ever lived in a socialistic or communist country? I have and have family that still does, it's nothing nice.
I don't doubt that for a second.
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RE: Once Again... - 8/3/2008 9:24:09 PM
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colliefan
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And what would happen if the drug companies that develop life-saving medicine didn't turn a profit? People would die needlessly. What happens when government spends money as if they didn't need to make a profit? Government waste.
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RE: Once Again... - 8/3/2008 9:26:41 PM
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earthless
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Exactly - colliefan. The free-market/capitalism system is the best option to have when we have a fallen world. This is why I cringe when some people want American medicine to be socialized, don't they know what that will cause?
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RE: Once Again... - 8/3/2008 10:39:01 PM
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Rufas2000
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quote:
And what would happen if the drug companies that develop life-saving medicine didn't turn a profit? People would die needlessly. What happens when government spends money as if they didn't need to make a profit? Government waste.
Just in case thats a response to my post right before yours let me clarify, nothing wrong with profit. Its what gives us all the good stuff. I was just explaining why I don't find corporations to be heroic or benevolent. And when someone is saying thank you in a public forum to someone or something they don't know personally that is the message it sends, or so it seems to me.
The problem with the Government is that they don't need to turn a profit and its really tough to fire them for poor performance. A CEO would never survive what these people do. They can only be fired once every 2, 4 or 6 years and even then we can't interview a bunch of applicants for the job. Any big corp would panic if the only two people they could choose from for CEO are Barack Obama and John McCain.
Big corporations have to make tough choices to ensure their survival. Examples:
Do we fire 10,000 people now or do we let the whole company go under in two years because of our bloated work force? Then 100,000 people are deprived of jobs and nobody benefits from our products, even ourselves.
Do we move production offshore, which will deprive Americans of jobs, or do we allow our competitors to rocket ahead of us because our costs of production are too high?
Health insurance now or job next year? What do our employees prefer?
Many times its not a decision of money or more money, its success, survival or death. Big corps don't have the luxury of being heroic or making the most noble decisions.its tough enough to balance keeping it legal and making a profit.
The fact that we are hearing about so much illegal or shady activity from big businesses doesn't mean that they are an evil that needs to be stopped. Rather it means somehow the opportunity costs of those activities needs to be increased to discourage them. Whether this involves more or perhaps less government involvement is an open question. I suspect it means a revamp of governmental involvement, increasing in some areas while deregulating in others but I'll leave that question to those who know more about business & economics. I just like to dabble in philosophy a little when I can't find anything better to do. Or am too lazy to do it. 
< Message edited by Rufas2000 -- 8/3/2008 10:45:41 PM >
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RE: Once Again... - 8/5/2008 9:10:16 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 777
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
I need gas, they provide, I pay for it, everyone wins.
I totally agreed with that mentality, until I saw the effects, financially on people. There are those who are hurting financially now, who never did in the past. My parents being some of them.
Not everybody is winning now. Choices are having to be made whether
to pay certain bills or put gas in the car to get to work. Minimum wagers are wondering what they are working for. How much is left per week after the fill up their cars?
Food or gas, for many people. Absolutely no room for extras and even some necessities.
The only thing to really say is that if the oil companies were not making profit, and therefore went under, those who think they have financial hardships now would not even know what hit them. See how hard it is when everyone is forced to live without almost every modern convenience because some people dislike the evil PROFIT.
I am not exactly thrilled with the cost of gasoline and groceries and everything else that has risen in price, but I tell you I would rather have the option to spend loads of money on it than not have it there at all.
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RE: Once Again... - 8/5/2008 3:30:28 PM
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OneJohn410
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
I just have no intrest in seeing people such as yourself base their perceptions on falsehoods and attack any company based on those perceptions. I showed you where mcdonalds makes a far higher profit margin but you don't care about that because you appear to have an axe to grind with oil companies.
McDonald's profits don't make groceries go up, it doesn't cause people to lose their jobs, it doesn't keep wars going. Helllooooo!
What's the point of comparing the profit margin of a fast-food restaurant to those of oil refineries? I don't have an axe to grind with either one. That'd be a lot of beef patties to equate to the same bottom line of profit of RESALE of petroleum. McDonald's keeps getting brought up, _jjp_, but the subject is gas for the car, not two all-beef patties, special sauce...
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The Lord is my strength and shield. I trust Him with all my heart. He helps me, and my heart is filled with joy. I burst out in songs of thanksgiving. Psalm 28:7
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RE: Once Again... - 8/5/2008 4:02:58 PM
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Sophie11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OneJohn410
What's the point of comparing the profit margin of a fast-food restaurant to those of oil refineries? I don't have an axe to grind with either one. That'd be a lot of beef patties to equate to the same bottom line of profit of RESALE of petroleum. McDonald's keeps getting brought up, _jjp_, but the subject is gas for the car, not two all-beef patties, special sauce...
It seems to me it's not so much about an axe to grind, but the fact that if one is to blame the current price of gasoline on the oil companies then their profit margin obviously must come into play. It's just to point out the double standard where it is ok for one company to make a 20% profit but atrocious for another to make a 10% profit, it doesn't make sense. In reality then what some seem to be leaning towards is that they would prefer a profit cap to be in place. Just my opinion, I'm not necessarily directing this at you alone....
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RE: Once Again... - 8/5/2008 4:54:28 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
Big corps don't have the luxury of being heroic or making the most noble decisions.its tough enough to balance keeping it legal and making a profit.
And a small company has this luxury. Regardless of aize, the mission of the owner's of a company is to see those who risked involvement in the company are rewarded for their investment. Yes, workers must be well treated just as they must work for the owner in the same way as they were as if they were working for God.
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RE: Once Again... - 8/5/2008 4:55:04 PM
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_jjp_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OneJohn410
What's the point of comparing the profit margin of a fast-food restaurant to those of oil refineries? I don't have an axe to grind with either one. That'd be a lot of beef patties to equate to the same bottom line of profit of RESALE of petroleum. McDonald's keeps getting brought up, _jjp_, but the subject is gas for the car, not two all-beef patties, special sauce...
The profit margin example goes a long way to show that those who are whining either have an axe to grind or are not at all concerned with the fact that oil companies make much less of a margin than many businesses. Oil companies sell A LOT so they profit a lot. If I were to make 60% of what you make per hour and i worked 4 times as many hours as you would it be unfair that i make more than you do? That is essentially what you are saying by ignoring the fact that the profit margins the oil companies make are far from exhorbitant. Let us not forget that Exxon alone employs more than 100,000 people.
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RE: Once Again... - 8/5/2008 4:58:02 PM
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colliefan
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From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
but the fact that if one is to blame the current price of gasoline on the oil companies then their profit margin obviously must come into play
The taxes the government reaps from the oil companies for no investment of its on must come into play. How much revenue per second does big government get from big oil?
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RE: Once Again... - 8/5/2008 5:03:57 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1333
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
but the fact that if one is to blame the current price of gasoline on the oil companies then their profit margin obviously must come into play
The taxes the government reaps from the oil companies for no investment of its on must come into play. How much revenue per second does big government get from big oil?
The taxes Exxon pays is TRIPLE the amount of their "profits"......(11.68 Billion in "profit"......more than $32 Billion in taxes paid......for Q208)
betcha Obama doesn't mention that in his "big oil=evil" commercial he's running right now.....
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RE: Once Again... - 8/5/2008 5:08:32 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1333
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quote:
Let us not forget that Exxon alone employs more than 100,000 people.
good point!
and, many of those employees are MY neighbors! (ExxonMobil's headquarters is in my neighborhood....right around the corner)........all are good, hardworking people.....
they certainly don't want to pay any more for gas than they absolutely need to.....just like everyone else!
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Once Again... - 8/5/2008 5:50:42 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 387
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OneJohn410
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
I just have no intrest in seeing people such as yourself base their perceptions on falsehoods and attack any company based on those perceptions. I showed you where mcdonalds makes a far higher profit margin but you don't care about that because you appear to have an axe to grind with oil companies.
McDonald's profits don't make groceries go up, it doesn't cause people to lose their jobs, it doesn't keep wars going. Helllooooo!
What's the point of comparing the profit margin of a fast-food restaurant to those of oil refineries? I don't have an axe to grind with either one. That'd be a lot of beef patties to equate to the same bottom line of profit of RESALE of petroleum. McDonald's keeps getting brought up, _jjp_, but the subject is gas for the car, not two all-beef patties, special sauce...
How 'bout comparing the profits of oil companies to the profits of trial lawyers? Talk about windfall profits! What damage do they wreak on society? Or hollywood studios? Rap music labels? Why single out oil companies?
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RE: Once Again... - 8/6/2008 3:51:50 AM
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Rufas2000
Posts: 1312
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
How 'bout comparing the profits of oil companies to the profits of trial lawyers? Talk about windfall profits! What damage do they wreak on society? Or hollywood studios? Rap music labels? Why single out oil companies?
Because everyone needs gas but they don't need rap CDs or trial lawyers. When people get angry they feel a need to do something and to lay blame on somebody. When they hear half a story (Exxon's total dollar profit) but not the whole story (percentage of profit) they get angry. The news media is feeling the economic crunch too and people would rather read about how terrible these gas companies are (since its conceivable something could be done about them) than a detailed analysis that does not provide one easy target but rather a mess of a problem that is everybody's fault.
As far as trial lawyers I'm not a fan but what are their services worth? Its harder to get a fix on the value of someone's time. Ultimately it is whatever someone is willing to pay for it but without hard economic data how can a profit level be established? Hollywood studios and music labels are also a toughie because how can we place a value on someone's creativity?
Just some thoughts. But the overall point of being singled out (scapegoated) is well taken.
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RE: Once Again... - 8/6/2008 8:10:11 AM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1333
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From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
As far as trial lawyers I'm not a fan but what are their services worth? Its harder to get a fix on the value of someone's time.
the cost/profit of a good trial lawyer may seem "outrageous".....until you NEED one....then, they are worth every penny.
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Once Again... - 8/6/2008 8:53:24 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 777
Joined: 1/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
but the fact that if one is to blame the current price of gasoline on the oil companies then their profit margin obviously must come into play
The taxes the government reaps from the oil companies for no investment of its on must come into play. How much revenue per second does big government get from big oil?
Oh I fully agree. I wonder how many people ignore this when ranting about the oil companies, listening to the politicians and government do the same. It's absurd.
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RE: Once Again... - 8/9/2008 9:26:39 AM
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trivownr
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Wow, quite a thread! Have to add my $.02. Lot of factors contribute to the high cost of gasoline--global demand, quality of crude oil, EPA requirements, Congress' refusal to allow us to drill in ANWR, off the coast, etc, our lack of refineries, taxes, etc.
I think the main thing we don't like is the high cost of gas per gallon. If the oil companies make a record profit (the $32B Exxon profit for instance) but gas costs us $2.00/gallon do we really care? I don't think so. What we don't like is paying $4.00 or more for a gallon of gas that was less than $3.00 a year ago.
With today's economy and all of the factors above, we need to pull out the stops. Wind power? Yes! Nuclear? Yes! Solar? Yes! Drill offshore? Yes! Drill in ANWR? Yes? Build more refineries? Yes! Fuel Celled cars powered by hydrogen and a new hydrogen infrastructure? Yes! Clean Coal? Yes! Oil Shale? Yes! US companies can do this and do it in a safe manner! Turn them loose!!!!
Alternative energy can help us meet our energy needs, but it will take at least a decade before they provide any (significant) relief. The solution for the short term is to drill, drill, drill! 535 people (Congress) are holding the rest of us hostage! How's that for tyranny?
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