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RE: Do you like being told how to worship? - 7/30/2008 7:16:45 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
I remember one preacher telling us that if we were "Jesus Fans" we would run and shout.
If I had a dollar for every time a pastor, worship leader, music minister, elder, deacon, etc.. used that line. One very recent example my family experienced at a church we were visiting had the preacher telling the congregation that it is wrong for so many Christians to be quiet at church, during worship.
That they have no problem "acting a fool" at a football game or at a concert - hollering, shouting, clapping, whistling, making noise.. but that in church they were quiet and not doing those things.
My sister turned to me.. sighed.. and said, "I don't go to any sporting events.. and I never act like a fool in that manner.. it's not who I am." (she does not)
An individual sitting quietly during worship can be as worshipful as the individual hooting and hollering down the aisle.
God sees the heart - and knows our character, our temperament.
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RE: Do you like being told how to worship? - 7/30/2008 7:19:42 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
IMHO people who are more emotional in church tend to be less ratrionale/scripture oriented than the average person. I suspect those of us on this forum tend to be the some of the more rationale/scripture oriented people in our churches or we would not be on here.
If the more emotional people were commenting on this thread, their positions on this issue could be very different. Just a thought.
You hit on something that I cannot say with any absolute sense.. but that, boy oh boy, has rung true time and time again in my personal walk with the Lord. In visiting thousands of churches throughout the years.... and interacting with those there.
*ducks*
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RE: Do you like being told how to worship? - 7/30/2008 7:42:29 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Well, I would suggest that Drfuss is probably right in many cases, but some people are just plain ol' emotional, and that doesn't make them any less a student of the Bible than anyone else.  I love the Bible, and I love Bible study, but there are times when I think about where I was and the boulders the L-rd had to remove, the roads He had to straighten, the people He had to bring into my pathway, and I can get pretty emotional about His incredible love and unfathomable Fatherhood.
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"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Do you like being told how to worship? - 7/30/2008 7:46:33 PM
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Qtman
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Maybe it's just me but I find the older I get the more emotional I have become.
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RE: Do you like being told how to worship? - 7/30/2008 8:16:29 PM
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Zhi
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quote:
If I had a dollar for every time a pastor, worship leader, music minister, elder, deacon, etc.. used that line. One very recent example my family experienced at a church we were visiting had the preacher telling the congregation that it is wrong for so many Christians to be quiet at church, during worship.
That they have no problem "acting a fool" at a football game or at a concert - hollering, shouting, clapping, whistling, making noise.. but that in church they were quiet and not doing those things.
My sister turned to me.. sighed.. and said, "I don't go to any sporting events.. and I never act like a fool in that manner.. it's not who I am." (she does not)
An individual sitting quietly during worship can be as worshipful as the individual hooting and hollering down the aisle.
God sees the heart - and knows our character, our temperament.
I went to a baseball game a few weeks ago (it was for a work function for my husband, it's not something I do regularly).
Nobody seemed terribly upset that I was sitting there knitting a cabled cardigan while watching rather than shouting or hollering.
If I'm hollering, you'd probably better get out of the way of whatever large, uncontrolled object is bearing down on you.
I've heard preachers say that if we were in the presence of God, we would be more "excited" and making more noise and motions. Personally I think I would be too busy falling on my face before His holiness.
I think God is more concerned about the condition of our heart toward Him than about how much we're flapping around and yelling. Or how much we're not flapping around and yelling. hee.
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RE: Do you like being told how to worship? - 7/30/2008 8:25:24 PM
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nicole6598
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
I remember one preacher telling us that if we were "Jesus Fans" we would run and shout.
If I had a dollar for every time a pastor, worship leader, music minister, elder, deacon, etc.. used that line. One very recent example my family experienced at a church we were visiting had the preacher telling the congregation that it is wrong for so many Christians to be quiet at church, during worship.
That they have no problem "acting a fool" at a football game or at a concert - hollering, shouting, clapping, whistling, making noise.. but that in church they were quiet and not doing those things.
My sister turned to me.. sighed.. and said, "I don't go to any sporting events.. and I never act like a fool in that manner.. it's not who I am." (she does not)
An individual sitting quietly during worship can be as worshipful as the individual hooting and hollering down the aisle.
God sees the heart - and knows our character, our temperament.
This is done in my denomination all.the.time. I can't stand it. I don't have to raise my hands because YOU tell me to, i will raise my hands because I want to surrender to my Heavenly Father. It's all like others have said, worship in Spirit and truth.
We had our pastor brother say "you have to fake it til you can make it" talking about worship, how you sometimes don't want to "get into it" but you just keep faking it til you do. Ummmmm doesn't he know God sees our hearts, knows what we are thinking? I think he would rather we get ourselves sorted and worship in TRUTH instead of "faking" it.
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RE: Do you like being told how to worship? - 7/30/2008 8:38:52 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nicole6598
We had our pastor brother say "you have to fake it til you can make it" talking about worship, how you sometimes don't want to "get into it" but you just keep faking it til you do. Ummmmm doesn't he know God sees our hearts, knows what we are thinking? I think he would rather we get ourselves sorted and worship in TRUTH instead of "faking" it.
Oh, Nicole! In my opinion, this is just working something up. I have seen people work stuff up, and I have to admit that when I was in the old church, I felt pushed to work up emotion. I am So Glad to be away from that.
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Do you like being told how to worship? - 7/30/2008 8:42:35 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nicole6598
We had our pastor brother say "you have to fake it til you can make it" talking about worship, how you sometimes don't want to "get into it" but you just keep faking it til you do. Ummmmm doesn't he know God sees our hearts, knows what we are thinking? I think he would rather we get ourselves sorted and worship in TRUTH instead of "faking" it.
Ugh, sigh.
The meaning of the New Testament Greek word most often translated “worship” (proskuneo) is “to fall down before” or “bow down before.”
Worship is a state (an attitude) of spirit - since it’s an internal, individual action, it could/should be done most of the time (or all the time) in our lives, regardless of place or situation (John 4:21).
Therefore, Christians worship all the time, seven days a week. When Christians formally gather together in worship, still the emphasis should be on individually worshiping the Lord.
Even in a congregation, participants need to be aware that they are worshiping God fully on an individual basis.
You brought up a good point - that the nature of Christian worship is from the inside out and has two equally important parts. We must worship “in spirit and in truth” (John 4:23-24).
Worshiping in the spirit has nothing to do with our physical posture. It has to do with our innermost being and requires several things.
First, we must be born again. Without the Holy Spirit residing within us, we cannot respond to God in worship because we do not know Him. “No one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God” (1 Corinthians 2:11).
The Holy Spirit within us is the one who energizes worship because He is in essence glorifying Himself, and all true worship glorifies God.
Second, worshiping in spirit requires a mind centered on God and renewed by Truth. The Apostle Paul exhorts us to “present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind” (Romans 12:1, 2).
Only when our minds are changed from being centered on worldly things to being centered on God can we worship in spirit. Distractions of many kinds can flood our minds as we try to praise and glorify God, hindering our true worship.
Third, we can only worship in spirit by having a pure heart, open and repentant. When King David’s heart was filled with guilt over his sin with Bathsheba (2 Samuel 11), he found it impossible to worship.
He felt that God was far from him, and he “groaned all day long” feeling God’s hand heavy upon him (Psalm 32:3,4). But when he confessed, fellowship with God was restored and worship and praise poured forth from him. He understood that “the sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart” (Psalm 51:17).
Praise and worship toward God cannot come from hearts filled with unconfessed sin.
The second part of true worship is worship “in truth.”
All worship is a response to truth, and that which is truth is contained in the Word of God. Jesus said to His Father, “Thy word is truth” (John 17:17b).
Psalm 119 says, “Thy law is truth” (v. 142b) and “Thy word is true” (v. 160a).
To truly worship God, we must understand who He is and what He has done, and the only place He has fully revealed Himself is in the Bible. Worship is an expression of praise from the depths of our hearts toward a God who is understood through His Word. If we do not have the truth of the Bible, we do not know God and we cannot be truly worshiping.
Since external actions are unimportant in Christian worship, there is no rule regarding whether we should sit, stand, fall down, be quiet, or sing praises loudly while in corporate worship.
These things should be decided based on the nature of the congregation. The most important thing is that we worship God in spirit (in our hearts) and in truth (in our minds.)
The above was taken from an excerpt from an entry from my blog that touched upon this topic.
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RE: Do you like being told how to worship? - 7/30/2008 8:50:55 PM
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nicole6598
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Thanks for sharing that earthless.
I don't care if someone wants to holler and dance around that may be their way of expressing their worship and praise for God, but I don't like that there is this mindset that we must all be worshipping a certain way.
Our pastor has asked the worship team to watch themselves on DVD and critique themselves. They have to "look the part" and "lead the congregation into worship".
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RE: Do you like being told how to worship? - 7/30/2008 9:13:22 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nicole6598
Our pastor has asked the worship team to watch themselves on DVD and critique themselves. They have to "look the part" and "lead the congregation into worship".
Please tell your pastor to read Matthew chapter 6.
The following is a small excerpt from a sermon I preached many years ago..
quote:
“A Christian is a man who feels repentance on a Sunday for what he did on Saturday and is going to do on Monday”
Regarding Matthew chapter 6
In the first verses we can see Jesus pauses to give us a stern warning:
“Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.” (v.1)
Now, let me take you back to those times when for a first-century Jew – the three fundamental ways of practicing righteousness were giving, praying and fasting.
And as we will see, Jesus never disputes the importance of these; rather He cautions against practicing them as the hypocrites do and then gives instructions on the right way to model each one.
Lets take a look at the first problem or giving to impress others..
Giving
“When therefore you give alms, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be honored by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full”. (v.2)
Hypocrites love to give publicly.. they strive off it. So that they can be honored publicly.
Their primary interest isn’t in meeting a need but in putting their own generosity on display.
And this kind of giving to impress others not only displeases God, it also forfeits any future reward we might have received from Him. How then should we give?
Lets look at verses 3 and 4..
“But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing that your giving may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will repay you.” (v.3-4)
Humble, righteous giving is characterized by spontaneity, not always giving the same amount on the same day;
by anonymity, not announcing or parading your gift for others to see;
and with joy, not with an attitude of grim duty, but with overflowing joy!
God promises to remember and reward our giving when it is marked by these three traits. (see also Hebrews 6:10)
In a similar way, Jesus warns against hypocrisy in one of our most important spiritual disciplines: prayer. come with me to verse 5
Praying
“And when you pray, you are not to be as the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners, in order to be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.” (v.5)
In Jesus’ day, prayer had become more of a exercise , rather than a free expression of the heart.
They had standardized, routine prayers for every occasion.
Second, prayer was ritualistic.
Everyone prayed in designated places at determined times.
These were the times for prayer, for a Jew:
9:00 am | Noon | 3:00 pm
Third, prayers were long and wordy.
The more eloquent and intelligent, the more sophisticated and unique the words, the better a prayer was judged to be.
Fourth, prayer was often reduced to meaningless repetition of the same word or phrases.
And fifth, prayer had become a cause for pride rather than humble communication in a sacred relationship.
According to many Bible scholars – prayer had become so much this that it was a performance of public displays of out-stretched hands, bowed heads, and BIG words uttered loudly for everyone to hear.
Three times a day, preferably on a busy street corner.
How are we supposed to pray?? Come with me to verse 6 through 8
“But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will repay you. And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition, as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. Therefore do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need, before you ask Him” (v.6-8)
True prayer is not to be performed an audience but sincerely poured out before our Lord in private.
It is to be personal, real, nature – not faked with long, empty phrases. And, if we even look forward to verse 14 and 15, we’re not to have any grudges when we pray. Lets go to verse 16 (chapter 6)
Fasting
“And whenever you fast, do not put on a gloomy face as the hypocrites do, for they neglect their appearance in order to be seen fasting by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.” (v.16)
Just how bad was the hypocrisy surrounding fasting back then?
They would go to the market places on the days of fasting which were Monday and Thursday to get the bigger crowd.. so that they can be seen and be admired.
There were many that took some big steps so that others could see and not miss the fact that they were fasting. They walked through the streets with their hair all messed up, their clothes all raggedy. Some would even whiten their faces so that they could look even more pale!
You know we might think that pride is shown with big displays of prosperity.. but there can also be pride in fake displays of extreme humility.
So how are we to fast then? Lets look at verses 17 and 18.
“But you, when you fast, anoint your head, and wash your face so that you may not be seen fasting by men, but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will repay you.” (v.17-18)
We must examine ourselves as to why we do the things we do.
Is it for show or for praise and thanks to the Lord? How do we worship God? By coming here and singing along with the worship team? By lifting our hands the highest or swinging in motion with the best rhythm? By making sure everyone sees the hundred you pulled out to place in the offering bin? To show your hunger and pain when fasting?
By using big cool sounding words and long sentences when we pray that mean nothing to you and don’t fool God?
We worship God by our life, our actions and reactions
Are we a lighthouse in our school, work, home?
Are we reflecting Jesus to others through our lives and attitudes?
We might be the only reflection of Jesus many might ever now. That is how we truly worship God - by our lives, our minds, our heart and for a sincere love and longing for the Lord.
Coming to church and singing praise, or doing a special up here, giving an offering to God, fasting, or praying should all be a reflection of what already exists.
It should be the fruits of who Jesus is in our lives .. all that, my brothers and sisters, should be the fruits of the relationship we have with Jesus – an end product and not the clay from which to barely start with.
Hypocrisy, in whatever form – be it giving, praying, fasting, empty traditions – touched a raw nerve in Jesus.
He didn’t simply not like it, He attacked it, and condemned it to a sentence of hell (23:33).
We must constantly guard against these things in our struggle to mature as authentic Christians.
And not the Christian who feels repentance on a Sunday for what he did on Saturday and is going to do on Monday.
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RE: Do you like being told how to worship? - 7/30/2008 9:13:36 PM
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crankius
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Amein! I have a sign above my desk at work -- a quote which reads:
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy
that noise, size, activity and bluster
make [one] dear to God.
To a people caught in the tempest
God says, "Be still, and know that I am God."
Do you know who the quote is from? I like it.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Do you like being told how to worship? - 7/30/2008 9:20:20 PM
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nicole6598
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Thanks Earthless, I have shared that with my friend who is on the worship team who has a problem with it.
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RE: Do you like being told how to worship? - 7/31/2008 1:01:29 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Amein! I have a sign above my desk at work -- a quote which reads:
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy
that noise, size, activity and bluster
make [one] dear to God.
To a people caught in the tempest
God says, "Be still, and know that I am God."
Do you know who the quote is from? I like it.
AW Tozer. In fact, StephK had (has?) it on her posts.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Do you like being told how to worship? - 7/31/2008 9:27:01 AM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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quote:
That they have no problem "acting a fool" at a football game or at a concert - hollering, shouting, clapping, whistling, making noise.. but that in church they were quiet and not doing those things.
My sister turned to me.. sighed.. and said, "I don't go to any sporting events.. and I never act like a fool in that manner.. it's not who I am." (she does not)
.
oh yeah! i have heard that phrase used in many sermons: "you dont have a problem shouting and screaming at a football game".. except that I do NOT attend sports events so that doesn't apply to me.. its kinda funny when i hear that.
the one time it was bad for me sitting while everyone was standing was one time when i was sitting and the lady standing behind me had a big tambourine right above my head. when she banged that tambourine - OUCH MY EARS! ooooooooooooooo it was pretty loud. well but she was having such a good time enjoying praising the Lord with it, i did not have the heart to tell her to stop banging it above my head.. i guess in that time i should have stood up. whew!
The best prayers I happened to read were some examples of Puritan prayers. wow they are very deep. compared to my prayers, my prayers seem very lame.
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RE: Do you like being told how to worship? - 7/31/2008 10:12:53 AM
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Szaftoo
Posts: 813
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: So. Calif.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
drfuss: IMHO, people who are more emotional in church tend to be less ratrionale/scripture oriented than the average person. I suspect those of us on this forum tend to be the some of the more rationale/scripture oriented people in our churches or we would not be on here.
If the more emotional people were commenting on this thread, their positions on this issue could be very different. Just a thought.
Are you serious? I never realized I was "less rationale/scripture oriented" because I cried at my wedding, the birth of my children and when I hear the National Anthem. Sometimes I cry at church during worship or when a visitor accepts the Lord.
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RE: Do you like being told how to worship? - 7/31/2008 3:23:00 PM
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Soxfan
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How NOT to worship
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"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Do you like being told how to worship? - 7/31/2008 10:22:06 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4468
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Amein! I have a sign above my desk at work -- a quote which reads:
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy
that noise, size, activity and bluster
make [one] dear to God.
To a people caught in the tempest
God says, "Be still, and know that I am God."
Do you know who the quote is from? I like it.
AW Tozer. In fact, StephK had (has?) it on her posts.
Thanks!
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Do you like being told how to worship? - 8/1/2008 12:11:33 AM
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nicole6598
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Oh soxfan that footage you posted made me sick. Swinging socks in the air whilst singing that Jesus spins us around like a record? ugh ugh ugh
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RE: Do you like being told how to worship? - 8/1/2008 12:40:32 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Eeewww! The smell!
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Do you like being told how to worship? - 8/1/2008 8:11:08 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nicole6598
Oh soxfan that footage you posted made me sick. Swinging socks in the air whilst singing that Jesus spins us around like a record? ugh ugh ugh
Didn't you feel the anointing!!?
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RE: Do you like being told how to worship? - 8/1/2008 8:32:49 AM
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bluestone
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No wonder the world thinks Christians are lunatics. I think I agree with them.
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