|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Murderers in heaven???? - 7/29/2008 11:28:16 AM
|
|
|
neetchym
Posts: 18
Joined: 6/14/2008
From: Raleigh Area, NC
Status: offline
|
My preacher, whom I love very much, preaches that the way to heaven is through faith in Jesus. He says that if you confess your sins and accept Jesus in your heart, then by God's grace you will be saved. I believe this, BUT my friend who questions a lot of my faith, said "If your God allows rapist and murderers to walk in your heaven, then I don't want to be there." He asks how can God let these cruel people be in heaven just because they said sorry. I started wondering if maybe since I'm such a new christian (2 years)that maybe there is a verse that covers this or maybe something I'm not aware of. The verse "But people who are cowardly, unfaithful, detestable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars will find themselves in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death." (Revelation 21:8) pretty much says these people will not go to heaven, but what if the murderer (etc) confess and accept Jesus? What then?? Will they be in heaven? For to God one sin is just as bad as another. So why not let the confessed murderer into heaven if you let the confessed adulterer? Please help. 
_____________________________
When you stop, God starts!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Murderers in heaven???? - 7/29/2008 11:37:04 AM
|
|
|
Forever_flying
Posts: 13
Joined: 7/28/2008
Status: offline
|
It would be unfair not to let someone GOD save into heaven just because of what sins they commited.
Jesus teaches that even by hating someone in your heart, that it is the same as having murdered them.
And furthermore, GOD does not remember the sins HE has forgiven. They are as far as the east is from the west, and they're not coming back.
Everyone who has been saved, is counted as righteous in GOD's eyes.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Murderers in heaven???? - 7/29/2008 11:45:29 AM
|
|
|
OneJohn410
Posts: 1227
Joined: 6/1/2008
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: neetchym
My preacher, whom I love very much, preaches that the way to heaven is through faith in Jesus. He says that if you confess your sins and accept Jesus in your heart, then by God's grace you will be saved. I believe this, BUT my friend who questions a lot of my faith, said "If your God allows rapist and murderers to walk in your heaven, then I don't want to be there." He asks how can God let these cruel people be in heaven just because they said sorry. I started wondering if maybe since I'm such a new christian (2 years)that maybe there is a verse that covers this or maybe something I'm not aware of. The verse "But people who are cowardly, unfaithful, detestable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars will find themselves in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death." (Revelation 21:8) pretty much says these people will not go to heaven, but what if the murderer (etc) confess and accept Jesus? What then?? Will they be in heaven? For to God one sin is just as bad as another. So why not let the confessed murderer into heaven if you let the confessed adulterer? Please help.
Hi,
When you accept Christ into your heart as your Lord and Savior, you become a new creation. Old things are done away with, and you are forever changed. It's not just saying 'I'm sorry, God,' as your friend suggests. Your sinful nature takes a back seat, or gets dragged behind the car on a rope. Share with your friend that no one has met God's standards to enter heaven aside by thru the death, resurrection, and acension of Christ. That Revelation verse that starts off with but sounds like it is 'ripped' out of context, meaning take a look at the whole chapter that it is in. It sounds to me like the first part of that chapter might be talking about the reward for those who believe, and then there's your verse about the punishment for those who do not. Do you question a lot of your friend's 'lack of professed faith?' Usually friendships are made over each others building up of one another, or a common interest or something, and not the berating of each other.
OneJohn410
_____________________________
The Lord is my strength and shield. I trust Him with all my heart. He helps me, and my heart is filled with joy. I burst out in songs of thanksgiving. Psalm 28:7
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Murderers in heaven???? - 7/29/2008 11:51:00 AM
|
|
|
doinkdom
Posts: 4279
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
Status: offline
|
God's pure and righteous judgement and forgiveness is not ours.
What we think is fair and right does not equate to God's justice.
God is holy - He cannot contradict Himself. He cannot lie and cannot go back on His word.
We, as humans living on earth in the here-n-now do not like that - we like our revenge, our vengence and our fleshly justice. And, we have those on earth. But what we have here does not compare to what God has in heaven.
I know it's hard, it's difficult to understand and many times the person making those accusations about murderers in heaven have an emotional investment in a situation that is colored by trauma, violence or something else that makes it hard for them to accept it.
That's where we, as Christians love one another and help one another through this life by mourning, grieving and praying together.
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Murderers in heaven???? - 7/29/2008 11:54:21 AM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 5660
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: neetchym
BUT my friend who questions a lot of my faith, said "If your God allows rapist and murderers to walk in your heaven, then I don't want to be there."
If this were true I would agree with your friend, but it is not true.
They have been judged innocent by a just and true God, declared righteoius, and then are admitted.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Murderers in heaven???? - 7/29/2008 1:00:22 PM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 4099
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
Well, according to some scholars, Saul of Tarsus murdered many christians before he came to faith. He wrote most of the NT.
King David of old was said to have "...killed his tens of thousands." That was one of the reasons king Saul got so jealous of him.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Murderers in heaven???? - 7/29/2008 1:24:21 PM
|
|
|
AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 403
Joined: 4/28/2008
Status: offline
|
The bible says if you have ever hated someone you are a murderer, if you have ever looked upon another with lust, you have commited adultry, if you have lied, you are a liar, if you have stolen anything you are a theif. He is also breaking the 2nd commandment-Idolalitry, he is makeing God into what he wants God to be and that is idolalitry. The bible also says if you break one commandment you break them all, so we are not any better than those people. When God opens your eyes and you see yourself for what you are and Who He is, you will understand that the only difference is you have trusted that Jesus took your punishment for your transgressions. That what makes it so awsome that eventhough you were Enemies of God, He sent His son to pay your price, WOW HOW AWSOME IS THAT!!! I LOVE YOU GOD FOR LOVEING ME!!!!
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Murderers in heaven???? - 7/29/2008 1:32:01 PM
|
|
|
LCannon
Posts: 1255
Joined: 2/22/2007
From: Lebanon, OR
Status: offline
|
I'm glad my eternal salvation is not based on my performance rather Jesus' obedience and Victory over His Cross and blood spend on it. The personal appropriation of His sacrifice and obedience there of is how we(as mortals)can continually claim His inheritance mot my performance, thank God!
Hebrews 6:4-"For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt."
_____________________________
"It may be that when the angels go about their task of praising God they play
only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Murderers in heaven???? - 7/29/2008 1:33:13 PM
|
|
|
atheistinpeace
Posts: 219
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
|
It's certainly an interesting topic... and one which helped me reject Christian theology. I'm none too keen on a faith whereby the most dreadful tyrant can do what he likes, confess and accept Jesus, and enjoy forever in heaven; while those who are simply suspicious of believing everything in a millennia-old book get to languish in hell.
AiP
_____________________________
'It is not what the man of science believes that distinguishes him, but how and why he believes it. His beliefs are tentative, not dogmatic; they are based on evidence, not on authority or intuition' - Bertrand Russell
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Murderers in heaven???? - 7/29/2008 1:50:22 PM
|
|
|
jmjphe
Posts: 84
Joined: 4/29/2008
Status: offline
|
Lets remember here there is no "VIP sinner" we look at the opposite sex with lust...well we have commited adultery, we hate someone, we have murdered. An individual who has taken another life without justified cause (self defense for example) who gives up his/her life to Jesus is a new creature and the sins and inequities are washed away by the precious blood of Christ.
It's not a matter of "safegaurding" yourself in the afterlife...its a true transformation and repentance of a sinful nature but its certainly not the mentality of "I can do what i want and still enjoy paradise!" You may say what you want in your head, but its whats in your heart if you know what i mean.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Murderers in heaven???? - 7/29/2008 2:04:41 PM
|
|
|
URForgiven
Posts: 1120
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace
It's certainly an interesting topic... and one which helped me reject Christian theology. I'm none too keen on a faith whereby the most dreadful tyrant can do what he likes, confess and accept Jesus, and enjoy forever in heaven; while those who are simply suspicious of believing everything in a millennia-old book get to languish in hell.
AiP
If you could grasp the true condition of natural man, then you would never make a statement like you just did. Natural born man is dead. The only thing a dead person needs is life, and the only one who has life is Jesus Christ.
It is not a matter of being suspicious of a millennia-old book. It is not recognizing your need, and so continuing on your way to where all dead people go. Those who enjoy heaven forever, are those who have been made alive with Christ, for Heaven is for the living not the dead.
The reason you will languish in Hell is because you have not accepted Christ Jesus, who alone has life...
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. John 3:18
You are not rejecting a Christian Theology, you are rejecting the only One who can save you from languishing eternally in hell.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Murderers in heaven???? - 7/29/2008 2:14:36 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 5660
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
neetchym
Don't be too concerned about the excuse your frined uses, it is just as lame as the one about "I will not believe in a God that sends people to hell that never heard about him".
They (and many others) are just excuses for the lost to continue in darkness and sin and not accept the Light and Sanctification that our Savior brought to us.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Murderers in heaven???? - 7/29/2008 2:15:27 PM
|
|
|
LCannon
Posts: 1255
Joined: 2/22/2007
From: Lebanon, OR
Status: offline
|
Well, obedience has it's own reward AiP, a quiet and peaceful soul regardless of the clamor society lives in. Heaven is but a byproduct of Jesus' completed Glory.
_____________________________
"It may be that when the angels go about their task of praising God they play
only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Murderers in heaven???? - 7/29/2008 2:49:55 PM
|
|
|
daisies4u
Posts: 188
Joined: 10/16/2006
Status: offline
|
There are NO rapists or murderers in heaven! Once that person asks for forgiveness, his sins are gone. He is no longer a rapist or murderer. He is a child of God.
I worry about people like your friend. Part of being a Christian is accepting that we won't understanding everything. Our carnal minds cannot comprehend what God does. I am thankful for that.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Murderers in heaven???? - 7/29/2008 3:01:03 PM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 4099
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: daisies4u
There are NO rapists or murderers in heaven! Once that person asks for forgiveness, his sins are gone. He is no longer a rapist or murderer. He is a child of God. In one sense yes; in another no.
If you define a murderer or rapist or idoliter or whatever as anyone who ever did that, then they are still that.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Murderers in heaven???? - 7/29/2008 3:07:20 PM
|
|
|
daisies4u
Posts: 188
Joined: 10/16/2006
Status: offline
|
I guess it is how you look at it. There are many scriptures referring to our sins being forgotten. In God's eyes, they didn't happen. Therefore, you are no longer a murderer/rapist. You cannot BE a murderer/rapist and enter into the kingdom of heaven. You may have USED to be one, but you are not one any more.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Murderers in heaven???? - 7/29/2008 3:10:31 PM
|
|
|
Child4Jesus
Posts: 459
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: daisies4u
There are NO rapists or murderers in heaven! Once that person asks for forgiveness, his sins are gone. He is no longer a rapist or murderer. He is a child of God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
In one sense yes; in another no.
If you define a murderer or rapist or idolater or whatever as anyone who ever did that, then they are still that.
In real life we shouldn't define people by what they have done but what they are doing now. I mean if a man in his past was a pimp, he repented and became a disciple of Jesus Christ are we still referring to him as a pimp? Or one of his former prostitutes repents and becomes a disciple of Christ are we still calling her a prostitute?
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Murderers in heaven???? - 7/29/2008 3:30:32 PM
|
|
|
DaveW
Posts: 4099
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
|
What do the gospels record of Mary Magdalene? "...out of whom had gone seven demons." How about Simon - the Zealot. The Zealots were considered political terrorists of their day.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Murderers in heaven???? - 7/29/2008 3:34:52 PM
|
|
|
zoebob
Posts: 8761
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
Status: online
|
No one deserves heaven. One sin or 1000 horrific sins all doom you to hell. It is only God's forgiveness that saves. My uncle is in full time ministry and knows SOn of Sam and visits him regularly. HE will spend hte rest of his life in prison I believe but he knows and loves God now and is a brother in Christ.
ETA: I should say, that as far as we as humans can tell he has made a legitimate profession of faith and knows God
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Murderers in heaven???? - 7/29/2008 3:36:30 PM
|
|
|
Little_1
Posts: 1482
Status: offline
|
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
The proof that Jesus can change a life is in a life that Jesus has changed. If a murderer turns in true repentance to Jesus for forgiveness - his life will display evidence of change. That goes for the rapist, the adulterer, the child molester, and everyone else for that matter - inluding you and me. If God forgives and changes a life - who are we to question His mercy and forgiveness? Rather should we not praise God for His loving kindness towards us in that while we were (all) yet sinners - Christ died for us?
The Bible also teaches us that it's, "God's kindness that leads us to repentance......" I believe that the more realisation we have of our sin, the more appreciative of God we will be for forgiving us and the more thankful we will be to Him for His kindness and mercy and therefore the less likely we will want to follow sin. Those who have been forgiven much will appreciate much.
I know many professing Christians whose lives are unchanged despite being Christians for years and yet I have watched TV programmes and evidenced murderers in prison whose lives have most definately been changed in a short period of time and their love for the Lord Jesus is exuberant.
Praise You Jesus.
< Message edited by Little_1 -- 7/30/2008 2:34:39 PM >
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Murderers in heaven???? - 7/29/2008 5:09:08 PM
|
|
|
beachcooky
Posts: 893
Joined: 6/21/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Forever_flying
It would be unfair not to let someone GOD save into heaven just because of what sins they commited.
Jesus teaches that even by hating someone in your heart, that it is the same as having murdered them.
And furthermore, GOD does not remember the sins HE has forgiven. They are as far as the east is from the west, and they're not coming back.
Everyone who has been saved, is counted as righteous in GOD's eyes.
WOW! Awesome answer! That's a lot of wisdom. I totally agree with this statement. I have like, no words hahah. You basically said what I was going to say.
_____________________________
www.myspace.com/xsweetheartforux
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Murderers in heaven???? - 7/29/2008 5:36:01 PM
|
|
|
rofaith
Posts: 60
Joined: 1/17/2008
From: rofaith, a believer
Status: offline
|
Great question... I heard a sermon not too long ago about whether God is "fair" or not (TD Jakes). The idea of this or that being "not fair" is an anathema to God and His Kingdom. It's because whether something is fair or not is based on opinion and yet worse, question's God's perfect justice, which is filled with grace and mercy.
Jesus Christ, loved us and gave Himself for us. The reasoning being, just like John the Baptist said, "Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world". So, this event not only atones for our sin(covers it over), but it also takes it away, which means it is removed from us completely. That's actually quite amazing and wonderful.
The next move God does after removing our sin is that He gives us His favor. This means literally, that we are His favorites. It doesn't mean that less than good things will happen to us, but He will love and shepherd us through the journey of life to that day when we see Him face to face as we walk by faith.
When we see Him, just like now, He will not see our sin, only the precious soul that He loved and gave Himself for. Wow on that !
Your friend presupposes that his idea of justice for a rapist or a murderer transcends God's justice which it cannot do. Your friend after acknowledging God for who He is, will see that God's justice is far greater and given the blood of Christ, far fairer that we could ever accomplish here on the earth.
So, in the eyes of the world, one might be a murderer or a rapist, and our governmental earth bound justice system will do what it has to do. But, in the eyes of God, we are all murderers/rapists and with God's perfect justice, through the blood of Christ by faith, we are forgiven, clean, loved and beautiful in His sight. Now, that's wonderful news.....
blessings...
_____________________________
There is no other name....
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Murderers in heaven???? - 7/29/2008 9:24:19 PM
|
|
|
SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 905
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Little_1
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
The proof that Jesus can change a life is in a life that Jesus has changed. If a murderer turns in true repentance to Jesus for forgiveness - his life will display evidence of change. That goes for the rapist, the adulterer, the child molester, and everyone else for that matter - inluding you and me. If God forgives and changes a life - who are we to question His mercy and forgiveness? Rather should we not praise God for His loving kindness towards us in that while we were (all) yet sinners - Christ died for us?
Praise You Jesus.
This is essence says what I wanted to say. Well put Little1.
I believe God forgives any1 who seeks Him earnestly, and believes in Him, and what Jesus did on the cross. To God sin is sin, He does not separate sinners by the sin, or the severity of the sin. He only separates us by our faith in Him, or lack there of. The murderers, rapists, and so forth will pay for their crimes here in this life, and if they never come to belief in Jesus, for eternity. But the blood of the Lamb is more than powerful enough to scrub the dirtiest of sinners clean. A believer is made as white as snow, as our sins are washed away.
Praise the Lord, for without His grace and sacrifice, none of us would enter heaven.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Murderers in heaven???? - 7/29/2008 10:27:17 PM
|
|
|
DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 7735
Joined: 6/5/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: neetchym
I believe this, BUT my friend who questions a lot of my faith, said "If your God allows rapist and murderers to walk in your heaven, then I don't want to be there." He asks how can God let these cruel people be in heaven just because they said sorry.
Has your friend ever hated someone? He then is also a murderer. Does that make him more deserving to go heaven than a rapist? No.
All have done wrong, admittable or not, and no one is good, no, not one.
Maybe because I'm not half as bad as this other person, I must be just fine. Maybe because I haven't killed a man or forced someone to have sex, I must be a little bit higher on the religious chart... oh, but there was that one time I found these questionable videos and pictures on the internet, but surely that won't send me to hell. It's not like I commited adultery or anything, I might've lusted a bit, but that's it. It's not like I slept with someone or anything, so I must be just fine, right?
No, no you're not. Sin is sin, regardless of the act. Someone who kills is no worse off than someone who says, "I hate you!". Someone who sleeps around is no worse off than someone who commits sexual lust in their heart.
Too many people are worried about what they have done, that they can't reach the point of what they have to do. Nothing is going to change regardless of your past unless you accept Jesus Christ. Good intentions and "holier than thou" mentality doesn't set a man free.
If you were ruled before a judge with a list of undeniable transgressions, your fate would be eminent, you would be sentenced to prison. You're in prison with years of jail time you must serve. Hope isn't exactly the first thought on your mind. Suddenly, someone pays your bail bond. You're now free from whatever crimes you commited. You have been given another chance.
This is equivalent to Christianity. God is our judge, sin is our transgression, and prison is the bondage to sin. Jesus Christ is the only one who can set you free. Once you accept Christ, the label of "murderer", "adulterer", "rapist", etc is erased. Freedom has come and you are born again. Things of the past are no longer relevant to the future.
_____________________________
The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
