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RE: Churches with a couple dozen members? - 7/30/2008 8:55:05 AM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1333
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
Others can become very lonely, not part of the 'in crowd". And, no one recognises their needs, because no one knows them well enough - just another face in the crowd.
wow..that's exactly how I felt....at the fairly small church we used to attend.
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Churches with a couple dozen members? - 7/30/2008 9:53:12 AM
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laura...
Posts: 2842
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: NE Ohio
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1 Corinthians 12:14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
There is a place, a purpose and a calling for churches of every size. Truly one size does not fit all when it comes to congregations.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Churches with a couple dozen members? - 7/30/2008 11:46:44 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3605
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
1 Corinthians 12:14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
There is a place, a purpose and a calling for churches of every size. Truly one size does not fit all when it comes to congregations.
This is the true point.
God gives the plan and purpose to each person and congregation.
The "competitive spirit" is not from God.
I worked and helped establish the bus ministry in a fairly good size church.
We jumped in huge numbers. I really liked hauling in the dirty smelly kids
to church. But when that pastor left, it all went south. The board didn't want
to spend the money it took to reach the kids. I would even pick up the kids
and run the route for another church if they broke down and I came by. The
board of deacons reamed me good for that. ????????????
They had a telephone installed at the pulpit and then would call the competing
church to get their head count and then compare to our head count. Sure, it
was a great program and brought in the numbers. But the true love wasn't there.
It doesn't matter if it's a mega church or a very small church.
Each has it's own design and plan. No one can judge either one if it's
God's plan for them or man's plan.
If you want competition, sports activities, fun music, etc. then the bigger the
church the more apt to get these desires. But if you want real meat-eating
Bible Study, sometimes it just might be the small church that provides that.
Big or small, it depends on the heart and knowledge of the leaders and members.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Churches with a couple dozen members? - 7/30/2008 12:32:18 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 427
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Concerning small churches. I have a few comments.
Im sure the OP just doesnt know or isnt informed about small churches. Ill try and give some insights and quotes from people in-the-know.
In india the churches are relatively small, less than 50 some a hundred but most are small family churches. They meet in homes and have a pastor or evangelist leading the small flock.
Are they evangelistic? Are they seeking to live like Christ and walk against the grain of the world they live in? Ill let KP answer
“Well, part of the significant training we do for our missionaries in any of these countries is found in chapters nine and ten of Matthew’s Gospel,” he said. “In chapter nine we read that Jesus, seeing the multitude, was moved with compassion for them. But, in chapter ten, he says that he’s sending them out, but he makes a promise they will be accused, abused, persecuted, imprisoned and they may lose their life.
“But then he says, ‘Don’t love your life.’ So as it was then, it is true today. When you serve God amongst people that don’t necessarily believe in Christ or like the Gospel, they will hate the light and there will be persecution.
“Do I feel bad about it? I’m sad when I hear about one of our missionaries gets killed, or they are abused or have their house burned down, but then I say to myself, ‘Heaven is a much better place than being here on earth,’ and ‘It’s a privilege that the Lord gives to His people to have the grace to endure this persecution.’
“It’s a priority of missions for India and many other nations; the most significant thing is to train nationals and send them out, but at the same time, God is calling people from everywhere to go somewhere else also to preach the Gospel. So it’s all of us together doing everything we can to see the lost won for Christ.”
I then asked K.P. Yohannan if we in the West, who have our Christian life so soft, compared with those sharing the Gospel in the “10/40 Window” who daily risk their lives, had got it wrong about the normal Christian life.
“Well you know, there’s no glory in physical suffering or living without food or clothes,” he said. “But here’s the thing; Jesus said, ‘If anyone wants to come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.’ He also said, ‘Love me more than father, mother, son and daughter.’ I kind of wish he had stopped there, but he went on to say, ‘…more than your own very life; unless you do it you cannot be my disciple.’ So, for our missionaries and believers at large, there’s lots of persecution.
“Recently, one of our missionaries was in jail for two weeks. His crime was for preaching the Gospel and baptizing people. But during the time he was in prison, he started a Bible study and he’s now released. Strangely enough the officials from the prison now send word to our senior area pastor asking that they send him back to conduct this Bible study saying, ‘We’d sure like to have him here.’
“So who is right? Who is wrong? We all are wrong when we don’t want to accept suffering.”
END.
Id just like to see anyone one of us knowingly stand up and tell those small churches they are 'un-evangelistic', uncaring worldly, stuck inside the four walls not making a difference.
When they will burn your house down, or kill you even in your own small town for such things, all bets are off and all chatter ceases. This has got to be the real thing, because no one puts their family through that if they havent surrendered all to Jesus Christ.
So my answer to small churches is "They are the hand of God this day in India being used to bring change and reformation to a dark pagan nation". Their commitment to Christ in the face of such dangers is representative of the love and kindness God has poured into their hearts. They are acting like Christ, speaking like Christ and walking against the world like Christ. What more can be asked of these 'small churches'? God be praised everlastingly for his kindness in raising up tens of thousands of them.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Churches with a couple dozen members? - 7/30/2008 12:46:44 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3605
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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Thanks John.
that puts it all into perspective.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Churches with a couple dozen members? - 7/30/2008 12:49:33 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 427
Joined: 1/15/2006
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for the whole article of the interview with KP please see
http://www.crosswalk.com/news/religiontoday/11560077/
Im sure there are some of us who would be willing to be sent to jail. While you are in jail you are still zealous and preach the gospel, so much so that the prison officials want to have you back to continue the bible studies you started. I know in america there burns that same Spirit of Christ in some of us. I know that there are some of us that will be tested that way and shine brightly for the gospel.
Today, some of us have been inundated with sexual innuendo, worldly ambition, pride, ego, haughtness. Others have been verbally insulted, hated, gossiped about, promotions at work lost, discouragement and apathy thrown at them every day, lukewarmness is approved and yet some of us hate it with all our hearts. The demons that attack us are using a different tactic but there goal is the same, silence the gospel, render it ineffective and put it under the rug.
Everyday there are mothers who in faith bear up under tremendous stress because their children and families are attacked by their own husbands, Fathers who watch their children influenced by a dozen different wicked strains of sin, all poisonous enough to destroy their lives in a moment. Christ-less atheism propogated as though it is the antidote to the worlds ills, its held up against the weak stereotypical christianity that is a stench in nostrals of God. We too hate it and yet we see it as the media uses it as the standard for what a Christian is now-a-days.
Big or small churches are all under attack. Victory is only found in the one glorious redeemer of men Jesus Christ the righteous.
Where ever God has you attending, I pray you love God supremely and walk before Him in purity, I pray oh Father give us all the victory over all our circumstances here or in India or anywhere in the world so that Jesus Christ may be adored and His incomparable beauty may be seen. Amen.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Churches with a couple dozen members? - 7/30/2008 12:57:37 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 427
Joined: 1/15/2006
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Lapidoth:
Your welcome
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Churches with a couple dozen members? - 7/30/2008 1:48:45 PM
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peacebringer
Posts: 221
Joined: 5/20/2006
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I don't think size of church is all that important. Some small churches could be dead. Some could be a gathering of people over something that their "itching ears" want to hear and pass truth. Some can be believers meeting together and experiencing worship and God in a way that uplifts them and causes them to grow in Christ. Numbers is just almost can be a way of pridefully looking at church and be building a kingdom in the name of God. Actually I explore that concept a little in my latest blog article. Small churchs, big church, whatever doesn't matter to me. THere is value in the home church. My mother attends one and is greatly blessed.
_____________________________
http://peacebringer7.wordpress.com/
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RE: Churches with a couple dozen members? - 7/30/2008 1:54:02 PM
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peacebringer
Posts: 221
Joined: 5/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
for the whole article of the interview with KP please see
http://www.crosswalk.com/news/religiontoday/11560077/
Im sure there are some of us who would be willing to be sent to jail. While you are in jail you are still zealous and preach the gospel, so much so that the prison officials want to have you back to continue the bible studies you started. I know in america there burns that same Spirit of Christ in some of us. I know that there are some of us that will be tested that way and shine brightly for the gospel.
Today, some of us have been inundated with sexual innuendo, worldly ambition, pride, ego, haughtness. Others have been verbally insulted, hated, gossiped about, promotions at work lost, discouragement and apathy thrown at them every day, lukewarmness is approved and yet some of us hate it with all our hearts. The demons that attack us are using a different tactic but there goal is the same, silence the gospel, render it ineffective and put it under the rug.
Everyday there are mothers who in faith bear up under tremendous stress because their children and families are attacked by their own husbands, Fathers who watch their children influenced by a dozen different wicked strains of sin, all poisonous enough to destroy their lives in a moment. Christ-less atheism propogated as though it is the antidote to the worlds ills, its held up against the weak stereotypical christianity that is a stench in nostrals of God. We too hate it and yet we see it as the media uses it as the standard for what a Christian is now-a-days.
Big or small churches are all under attack. Victory is only found in the one glorious redeemer of men Jesus Christ the righteous.
Where ever God has you attending, I pray you love God supremely and walk before Him in purity, I pray oh Father give us all the victory over all our circumstances here or in India or anywhere in the world so that Jesus Christ may be adored and His incomparable beauty may be seen. Amen.
John
Might be a bit of a tangent, and yes the enemy is a work. I have an interesting quote from a friend's Rabbi (He goes to a messianic fellowship) quote:
Rabbi Stan recently said this in one of his sermons: “A person - or a demon - does not need to be with you to control you. All they need to do is teach you something that sinks in and that you conform your life around, and from that moment on, whoever taught you that is in control of your life, even if you never meet them again.” from messianic musings and as such we should each be examining where we hold to deceptions.
And yes the whole of the church is under attack. At any rate, back on tangent a small church or big church doesn't matter as long as they are surrendered to Jesus and walking as He leads.
_____________________________
http://peacebringer7.wordpress.com/
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RE: Churches with a couple dozen members? - 7/31/2008 9:56:57 AM
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lexie
Posts: 3047
Joined: 6/27/2005
From: Toronto
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Our family is split between two churches. Those who attend church two or three times weekly attend the small church. Those who goes every once in a while attend a large church. They are always criticising our church for being "dead."
We ask why is it dead? Because we don't have a four hour song service followed by a 20 minute sermon and instead have an hour long song service followed by an hour long sermon? Because we have an in depth bible study as part of our service and not as something you can show up afterward for the "hot" part of the service? Because as a church will we talk to you and try to work with you through your sin rather than letting you show up with more children and less husbands and sit in a pew and feel good?
I'm not trying to be harsh but this is a problem that we have had in the past. We are a very open church. If a brother or sister offends us, we deal with the situation instead of stewing in a pew. If we know someone has taken a wrong turn in their walk, then we try to help them back onto the straight. And people take offense to it. They call us dead, then leave the church for one where they can hide in the back.
I'm not saying this happens in all large and small churches, but this is something we have seen.
For me I am being fed in this church. I don't know if I could be fed in a mega church, I've never given it a try. Right now, I don't want to find out. I feel blessed to be in a small church and help it grow.
I liked the question earlier about what would you do if your church grew to be a mega church? I'm sure I could definitely find a spot for me in it. But I know that as a new Christian I grew in unimaginable ways through my small group. If as our church grew, people were to leave it, I would understand because we all have different needs when it comes to our churches. If we all had the same needs, then there would be just one church in each city.
For me, as long as the church is biblically sound and is a part of the mega-church known as God's kingdom, it doesn't matter the size.
_____________________________
I want to be more than an ordinary servant.
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RE: Churches with a couple dozen members? - 7/31/2008 10:02:28 AM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1333
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: offline
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quote:
For me, as long as the church is biblically sound and is a part of the mega-church known as God's kingdom, it doesn't matter the size.
Great use of words!....i love that "part of the mega-church known as God's kingdom" part......and you're right....size doesn't matter.
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Churches with a couple dozen members? - 7/31/2008 12:34:58 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6963
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
I know, the "Church" is the people but I'm talking about churches that perpetually have a couple dozen members - or really anything less than 100. Is that for real? I know churches go through things, transition, upheaval, splits. Unfortunately, that happens, things rebuild...but churches that just stay content, seemingly, with a few people. What's that about? It seems more like a little family reunion or something. These people can't be concerning themselves at all with sharing their faith or reaching out to the community - so what's the point?
You're kidding right?! That is a ridiculous assumption to make!
I am still church shopping. I am torn between two churches. Both are right on with doctrine. One has 10,000+ members and the other has about 50 members.
Both are warm and friendly and caring. Both are very conservative. Of course the larger church has more outreach ministries. However, there is something to be said for the smaller church when members call you just to chat and let you know that they missed you the last two weeks or so.
When I was in Indiana, I attended a church that had over 700 members. Our pastor moved away and we had to hire a new pastor. The new pastor lasted about a year and then he went to work for Chuck Swindoll. The next pastor was a nightmare. He did some really terrible things and we wound up loosing over 500 members. The next pastor was awesome and stayed for about 7 years, but the church didn't grow much. We were in a small town and the pain that the one pastor caused stayed fairly fresh in the minds of most people there.
As far as the family reunion statement- isn't that a little of what church is about? Touching base with members of the family of God? 
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RE: Churches with a couple dozen members? - 7/31/2008 2:10:18 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 514
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
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quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
I know, the "Church" is the people but I'm talking about churches that perpetually have a couple dozen members - or really anything less than 100. Is that for real? I kow churches go through things, transition, upheaval, splits. Unfortunately, that happens, things rebuild...but churches that just stay content, seemingly, with a few people. What's that about? It seems more like a little family reunion or something. These people can't be concerning themselves at all with sharing their faith or reaching out to the community - so what's the point?
Hey guys and gals,
I haven't read the whole thread, so please forgive me if I repeat something that has already been said.
Small churches don't necessarily refuse to grow. Many are hindered by the attitude imbedded in the OP. People shy away from small churches because they expect five star worship services and a whole array of services, i.e. childrens worship, teen ministries, and so on, that small churches don't have the resources to provide.
quote:
quote]ORIGINAL: bluestone
I think the majority of churches in the United States are under two hundred members, many under 100. Some of these churches do a great job ministering and sharing the gospel. Many do concern themselves with the community, but numerical growth is not an indicator of that.
You don't have to be huge to be valuable. Many huge churches teach feel good sermons and are more recreational parks than churches.
Excellent point, bluestone! We Christians need to avoid using the world's definition of success. Success is not judged by numbers, but by faithfulness!
quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
...Nevertheless, I'd rather go to a church that has 25 members who love the Lord than to go to a mega church of 5,000 people just to brag about having a large congregation.
God led us to a big church. A VERY big church...
...That said.....I certainly take geographic location into account. Our church is located in the middle of the Dallas-Fort Worth area....populated by some 6+ Million people. And, as I mentioned earlier, there are SEVERAL churches that saturate our entire area (we drive by at least 7-8 just going to church!).....While looking at other churches, I DID take church size/growth into account when we visited while looking for a new church home. WHY? Here we are....in a large, and fast growing, area in one of the most populated areas in the U.S....if a church has been there, but has been having 0 growth, under those conditions, then, something is probably wrong. I can perfectly understand near 0 growth in very rural areas, or areas with a small "Christian" population......but, for a church to be surrounded on ALL sides by rooftops as far as the eye can see (and more appearing every day) amongst a sea of people who are "lost" and in need of Christ, and not have any growth for years? Something is likely wrong with that church.....
It is possible that something is wrong, but from reading between the lines of your post, kernsfamily, I believe that you know 0 growth does not necessarily indicate something is wrong (defining growth as numerical and not spiritual). Of course growth cannot be solely defined by the numbers of people who attend. Growth must be defined as maturation in the Lord.
Consider this:
1Peter 3:7-9
quote:
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
If this passage indicates that Jesus will not return until everyone who is going to repent actually does, then as we draw nearer to that glorious day (and that one last act of repentence) it is possible that fewer and fewer people will be getting saved. Of course it is possible that the last act of repentence will happen at the same time as many others, but if the former rather than the latter is how the scenerio plays out, then we must ask if all those churches, large and small, are unsuccessful because they do not experience numerical growth?
< Message edited by mushhead -- 7/31/2008 2:17:16 PM >
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Churches with a couple dozen members? - 7/31/2008 2:15:29 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1333
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: offline
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quote:
As far as the family reunion statement- isn't that a little of what church is about? Touching base with members of the family of God?
the family reunion statement was likely referring to the experience we had SOMETIMES while "visiting" very small churches 5 years ago when looking for a new church......there were small churches who treated visitors as "intruders"...."uninvited guests"....they had their "happy little family", where they knew everyone, and were not very keen on being welcoming to "strangers" .....cause once you be nice to strangers, they just might join the church....and, then, others may come along, too. And, before you know it, the church as THEY know it (knowing everyone in church) is gone....and, GASP!, those "new comers" just may want to come in and change things from the way we've always done them!
in a rural community, it's understandable that small churches stay fairly small.
BUT, in large and fast-growing metro areas (like ours, with people moving in all the time....we're at 6+ million and growing), one has to wonder why a church hasn't grown in years.....it raises "red flags" in my mind.
quote:
Of course the larger church has more outreach ministries. However, there is something to be said for the smaller church when members call you just to chat and let you know that they missed you the last two weeks or so.
Call to chat and let you know they were missed? NEVER happened in the much smaller church we were at previously, before we moved to our current "mega-church".....(we left that small church after being there for about 4 years.....then, one day, we just stopped going there, and started "shopping" for a new church.....really, no one noticed we left)
Now, that we're at our "mega-church", we'll get a couple of calls from close friends, and the teacher from our sunday school class to make sure everything is going OK....and to let us know that we were missed....
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Churches with a couple dozen members? - 7/31/2008 2:33:05 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1333
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: offline
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quote:
It is possible that something is wrong, but from reading between the lines of your post, kernsfamily, I believe that you know 0 growth does not necessarily indicate something is wrong (defining growth as numerical and not spiritual). Of course growth cannot be solely defined by the numbers of people who attend. Growth must be defined as maturation in the Lord.
true...numbers aren't EVERYTHING...
However, if the church, and the members of the congregation, aren't REACHING OUT into the community.....and spreading the Gospel to the thousands that live within blocks of their church (and, as a result, adding to their numbers as the church in Acts did), then WHY do they even exist? To be a "country club" for Christians, while they ignore the struggling world outside the confines of their premises?
There's no shortage of people who are "open" to hearing God's word....and, accepting Christ as their savior.
There's a shortage of churches, and people in churches, who are willing to break out of their "comfort zones" of their "everyone is family" church to reach those people....and welcome them into their "family".
Our church didn't gradually, and consistently, grow from 50 to 26,000 over the past 30 years just by opening our doors on Sunday morning and wednesday evening to it's group of church members. It's been the RELENTLESS reaching out and ministering to the community....and welcoming all who came..spreading and teaching the Gospel....solid biblical teaching....(along with spiritual development, discipleship and involvement of it's members)......
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Churches with a couple dozen members? - 7/31/2008 2:43:27 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 514
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
quote:
As far as the family reunion statement- isn't that a little of what church is about? Touching base with members of the family of God?
the family reunion statement was likely referring to the experience we had SOMETIMES while "visiting" very small churches 5 years ago when looking for a new church......there were small churches who treated visitors as "intruders"...."uninvited guests"....they had their "happy little family", where they knew everyone, and were not very keen on being welcoming to "strangers" .....cause once you be nice to strangers, they just might join the church....and, then, others may come along, too. And, before you know it, the church as THEY know it (knowing everyone in church) is gone....and, GASP!, those "new comers" just may want to come in and change things from the way we've always done them!
kernsfamily,
Have you read "The Seven Churches That Are Not In the Book of Revelation" (I don't remember the author's name)? The author describes the different types of churches, as well as their strenghts and weaknesses. Small churches tend to be what the author calls "Family churches." They are usually governed by a few prominent and long standing members who take it upon themselves to protect the church and its traditions. Your comments touch on a problem that hinders most small churches. Whether the church is the family type with prominent members (many times these prominent members are from families that have attended the church for generations. This this does not necessarily hinder growth and often is why many churches survive for decades or centuries; however, if growth does begin to happen, the pastor must approach the task both Biblically and with an appreciation for the reality of the situation is which he is ministering). I have pastored small rural churches and it is my experience that these prominent members want growth, but they want people who join the church to adapt to their long standing traditions. This is because over their many years, these members have seen people come and go, and so they tend to resist sweeping changes proposed by the latest "johnny-come-lately" who will probably leave in a few years.
That said,the most difficult task for leadership of a small church is to guide the church through the transition from the type of government that small churches typically use, to that which is necessary to manage the affairs of a larger congregation. Failure to make this transition is the primary reason why small churches platue and eventually return to their former size.
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MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Churches with a couple dozen members? - 7/31/2008 2:48:05 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 514
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
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quote:
There's a shortage of churches, and people in churches, who are willing to break out of their "comfort zones" of their "everyone is family" church to reach those people....and welcome them into their "family".
I agree with you 100%! My only point, and I think you agree, is that this is an issue of faithful obedience to our Savior, therefore whether or not a church is faithfully obeying Jesus is the true test of a healthy church, not numerical growth.
< Message edited by mushhead -- 7/31/2008 2:55:48 PM >
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MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Churches with a couple dozen members? - 8/1/2008 9:33:42 AM
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lexie
Posts: 3047
Joined: 6/27/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline
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quote:
Great use of words!....i love that "part of the mega-church known as God's kingdom" part......and you're right....size doesn't matter.
Thank you!
quote:
the family reunion statement was likely referring to the experience we had SOMETIMES while "visiting" very small churches 5 years ago when looking for a new church......there were small churches who treated visitors as "intruders"...."uninvited guests"....they had their "happy little family", where they knew everyone, and were not very keen on being welcoming to "strangers"
Sometimes I often wonder if we smother newcomers when they enter our church! We are always thrilled to see someone new at our church. But I understand what you are talking about. I went to one church with about 50 members for about 6 months....by the end of that time, I knew few people. When it was time to greet each other, people would ignore me and have inside conversations with the others around them.
quote:
BUT, in large and fast-growing metro areas (like ours, with people moving in all the time....we're at 6+ million and growing), one has to wonder why a church hasn't grown in years.....it raises "red flags" in my mind.
In a city of 3 million you could probably wonder about our church. But we recognize what keeps our growth minimal and we are taking steps to fix that. It's very difficult (most of it is financial) but we're working on it. Unfortunately, people don't see those behind the scenes things, they just see that we are a small church.
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RE: Churches with a couple dozen members? - 8/1/2008 11:53:19 AM
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sue244
Posts: 437
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
Status: offline
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quote:
Small churches tend to be what the author calls "Family churches." They are usually governed by a few prominent and long standing members who take it upon themselves to protect the church and its traditions.
You know the instersting thing I find about this statement is that this is how the biggest church in my town is run. The older families and the ones who have all the money run everything.
Now I will agree that some small churches can be run by a few families but I wouldn't limit it to small churches.
quote:
Sometimes I often wonder if we smother newcomers when they enter our church!
I think that sometimes to. The first Sunday I went to my church, everyone made a point of talking to me, it was actually overwelming for a natural introvert like me to have 30 different people come up and talk to you thoughout a morning. I also had a couple lunch invites. And I think its sad when I plan on going out with people in my church on Sunday and let my brother know and he ends up just eating at home by himself on Sunday because he can't find a single person he knows well enough to go to lunch with. And he works at the church.
I don't think we should judge a church by it size whether big or small but but on whether the church helps people mature in the Lord.
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RE: Churches with a couple dozen members? - 8/1/2008 11:59:54 AM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6963
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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I just don't like the implications that small churches are doing something wrong or that they are afraid to step out of their comfort zones.
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RE: Churches with a couple dozen members? - 8/1/2008 1:13:31 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5660
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
I just don't like the implications that small churches are doing something wrong or that they are afraid to step out of their comfort zones.
I presume (maybe wrongly) that we should go to Scripture for a model of the "Correct" Church.
In the Book of Acts; how large were the gatherings (Churches)?
Well the vast majority of them were in homes; so the question is how many folks could be stacked in the normal home of the first century Christian.
I would think that if you could get over two dozen in one standard home dwelling that would truly be a miracle.
So the assumption that "Small" Churches do not serve God, or are not a benefit of the Church is just modernistic application to a God given principle of Chruch equals family.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Churches with a couple dozen members? - 8/1/2008 1:35:18 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3605
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
just modernistic application
LOL. On the "head" again RC.
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RE: Churches with a couple dozen members? - 8/1/2008 7:34:37 PM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
Posts: 25990
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Currently . . . San Francisco
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quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
I know, the "Church" is the people but I'm talking about churches that perpetually have a couple dozen members - or really anything less than 100. Is that for real? I kow churches go through things, transition, upheaval, splits. Unfortunately, that happens, things rebuild...but churches that just stay content, seemingly, with a few people. What's that about? It seems more like a little family reunion or something. These people can't be concerning themselves at all with sharing their faith or reaching out to the community - so what's the point? csl7037, exactly how do you know this?
Ministry doesn't just happen because of committees, meetings and big groups.
The church I will forever consider my church has a core group of 13 members (14, if you count me, but I'm currently in a different state).
We meet people's homes each week.
We have fellowship before our service (coffee, chit-chatting, etc.).
During our service, we begin in prayer; everyone gets a chance to pray if they want, need or feel led to.
Our service consists of a group-setting of studying the bible; chapter-by-chapter. We can spend weeks on one chapter sometimes. It just depends on where Our Lord's Holy Spirit leads us.
After our studying, we have more prayer time. We pray for one another in a very earnest and tangible way. We also sing songs of worship to our Lord; we have communion; when appropriate and necessary our elders annoint one or some or all of us with oil.
After service we have another time of fellowshipping - around the dinner table; we share a meal together.
We usually spend, on average, 4 hours together each Sunday. Non | | |
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