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RE: The method of 153 fish - 7/28/2008 9:32:20 PM
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rcjones
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quote:
It also denies our right to claim the same level of authority as the NT authors in finding meaning in the OT.
It presumes that a special authority is required to read the scriptures. What scripture do you find to support this? The Bereans seemed to be qualified enough to search the scriptures to put apostles to the test.
_____________________________
Riddle me this:
Job 8.9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
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RE: The method of 153 fish - 7/28/2008 9:35:01 PM
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rcjones
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quote:
OK, one question before I begin. Which English version did you use to key your shadows? If I go looking for "donkey" in a version that translates the word differently, our discussion would not be very fruitful.
I suggest you use Hebrew and Greek. I use the word 'donkey' because I am writing in English.
_____________________________
Riddle me this:
Job 8.9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
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RE: The method of 153 fish - 7/28/2008 9:35:25 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
I think anyone reading the articles tat are background for this discussion would think by your answer you have not read the background documents. And based on your quick response, I can almost guarantee you have not.
The main point was that you do not acknowledge scholarship and tradition and you have made the point succinctly. Thank you.
rcjones, I hope you understand my current frustration. I feel that I am trying to discuss your method, yet whenever I attempt to make a point, you write me off as either ignorant, argumentative, or both. I have yet to receive what I feel is a legitimate response from you on any of my posts. I am sure that this was not your intent, but this is how I am perceiving the matter.
I imagine you may be feeling the same way about my responses. If that is the case, I assure you it is because, despite your repeated insistence that I don't understand your method, you have not done much, in my eyes, to clarify your method. I see your method as a way to ascribe certain meanings to certain words, and use these double-meanings to interpret passages. If that is incorrect, please let me know in what way it is incorrect.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The method of 153 fish - 7/28/2008 9:41:20 PM
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rcjones
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Explain how you can make an error if it "sums up and includes everything the Bible has to say about it" ?
Sums can be added incorrectly, friend, and a supposedly all-inclusive package often leaves the tourist wanting. Just because something claims to correctly take into account the witness of all Scripture does not mean it is so.
quote:
How can you make an error "if it looks like Christ"?
Many things look like Christ, and yet remain false. Looking like Christ is not enough.
Once again you are playing with words rather than addressing the issue.
Conversation concerning shadows properly address scriptures that haven't been considered in the analysis, and whether the doctrine derived matches the doctrine of the rest of the Bible.
_____________________________
Riddle me this:
Job 8.9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
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RE: The method of 153 fish - 7/28/2008 9:45:28 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Please give scriptural support for this a-priori assumption that contradicts tradition.
Well, for example, when it was written by Hosea, "Out of Egypt I called my son," Hosea had no idea that Jesus would one day escape to Egypt in the way He did. That meaning was there, but there was also the meaning for Hosea and his contemporary audience.
quote:
It presumes that a special authority is required to read the scriptures.
No, it does not. Where do you get this statement from?
quote:
I suggest you use Hebrew and Greek. I use the word 'donkey' because I am writing in English.
Oh, don't worry, I will. But sometimes, the same Greek or Hebrew word is translated more than one way. For instance, if you say "ruler" means one thing, then you might be talking about the word Elohim, which is also translated as God. That could lead to some confusion, don't you agree?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The method of 153 fish - 7/28/2008 9:48:04 PM
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rcjones
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
So if you are unable to understand them or follow them for what they are, you will not be able to evaluate evidence derived by them.
You seem to equate disagreement with your method with ignorance. I assure you that I comprehend how your shadows work.
quote:
So what? Contradiction is not argument.
Samson was not a godly man. His actions were driven by pride, lust, and a desire to gratify the self. To think that his riddle is speaking of Christ, in my opinion, degrades Christ in a way I am not comfortable with.
quote:
error "if it looks like Christ"?
Actually, your assessment of Samson demonstrates your inability to follow Midrash techniques and the methods of shadows.
The second layer has nothing to do with the character of Samson. It is word play. You made the same mistake in Rev 17 and you continue to make it here.
In the shadows Cain and Eglon and Saul are all shadows of Christ. It has nothing to do with their character. It is word play.
The fact that you cannot acknowledge this is proof you have no working knowledge of the methods. Thanks for putting the illustration right in the same post as your claim. It saved me from having to retrieve the same mistake made elsewhere.
_____________________________
Riddle me this:
Job 8.9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
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RE: The method of 153 fish - 7/28/2008 9:49:44 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
The second layer has nothing to do with the character of Samson. It is word play.
Why would God use such morally corrupt people to represent Christ?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The method of 153 fish - 7/28/2008 9:50:51 PM
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rcjones
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quote:
rcjones, I hope you understand my current frustration. I feel that I am trying to discuss your method, yet whenever I attempt to make a point, you write me off as either ignorant, argumentative, or both. I have yet to receive what I feel is a legitimate response from you on any of my posts. I am sure that this was not your intent, but this is how I am perceiving the matter.
I imagine you may be feeling the same way about my responses. If that is the case, I assure you it is because, despite your repeated insistence that I don't understand your method, you have not done much, in my eyes, to clarify your method. I see your method as a way to ascribe certain meanings to certain words, and use these double-meanings to interpret passages. If that is incorrect, please let me know in what way it is incorrect.
Thank you. I have been frustrated with you since your very first response to my very first post. So at least we agree on something.
Lets take a breather and see what we can agree upon first.
_____________________________
Riddle me this:
Job 8.9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
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RE: The method of 153 fish - 7/28/2008 9:53:45 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Lets take a breather and see what we can agree upon first.
Good call. : )
Just to make something clear - I do not think you are preaching heresy. None of the conclusions you personally have reached are outside the realm of orthodoxy. So, I hope you don't think I am in any way attacking you. I disagree with the method by which you reach your conclusions, but not the conclusions you, personally, have reached with these methods.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The method of 153 fish - 7/28/2008 9:54:05 PM
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rcjones
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
The second layer has nothing to do with the character of Samson. It is word play.
Why would God use such morally corrupt people to represent Christ?
Simply because He works all things for His glory...
_____________________________
Riddle me this:
Job 8.9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
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RE: The method of 153 fish - 7/28/2008 9:56:16 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Simply because He works all things for His glory...
I just don't see it. Aaron is a shadow of Christ, yes? Yet Aaron set up a golden calf and led the people in idolatry. How does this fit?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The method of 153 fish - 7/28/2008 9:57:30 PM
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rcjones
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Lets take a breather and see what we can agree upon first.
Good call. : )
Just to make something clear - I do not think you are preaching heresy. None of the conclusions you personally have reached are outside the realm of orthodoxy. So, I hope you don't think I am in any way attacking you. I disagree with the method by which you reach your conclusions, but not the conclusions you, personally, have reached with these methods.
Thank you. As you saw on the web site, I have made the observations, I didn't know how to explain them, now I can show how I see them. I want others to look at it closely, to see if they are in fact able to be validated or are invention.
Do you find fault with that?
_____________________________
Riddle me this:
Job 8.9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
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RE: The method of 153 fish - 7/28/2008 10:00:06 PM
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rcjones
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Simply because He works all things for His glory...
I just don't see it. Aaron is a shadow of Christ, yes? Yet Aaron set up a golden calf and led the people in idolatry. How does this fit?
I'm glad you asked... and I'll be happy to show it, but lets agree on something before we start in. I am constantly amazed myself at the pictures that pop out. I know I don't invent them, but it is up to others to verify that.
_____________________________
Riddle me this:
Job 8.9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
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RE: The method of 153 fish - 7/28/2008 10:00:11 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
I have made the observations, I didn't know how to explain them, now I can show how I see them. I want others to look at it closely, to see if they are in fact able to be validated or are invention.
Do you find fault with that?
Not at all. It would be faulty to keep all your findings to yourself, to cloister yourself away and say that everyone else is wrong because they don't believe as you do. That's how groups like the JWs got started, if I recall correctly.
Thankfully, friend, you aren't doing that. : )
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The method of 153 fish - 7/28/2008 10:01:13 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1717
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quote:
I'll be happy to show it, but lets agree on something before we start in. I am constantly amazed myself at the pictures that pop out. I know I don't invent them, but it is others to verify that.
Um, sorry, but I'm a bit confused. What are we agreeing on?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The method of 153 fish - 7/28/2008 10:02:11 PM
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rcjones
Posts: 193
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
I'll be happy to show it, but lets agree on something before we start in. I am constantly amazed myself at the pictures that pop out. I know I don't invent them, but it is others to verify that.
Um, sorry, but I'm a bit confused. What are we agreeing on?
I don't know yet... But we have to find something. ;)
So far, that we are both frustrated.
_____________________________
Riddle me this:
Job 8.9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
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RE: The method of 153 fish - 7/28/2008 10:04:47 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
I don't know yet... But we have to find something. ;)
Well, I feel safe in saying we both believe that Scripture is God's inspired, infallible word.
Also, that without the Spirit's guidance, one may have an intellectual knowledge of what the Bible says, but that only through the Spirit can one really understand and live out its teachings.
These are a bit basic, but hey, they're something.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The method of 153 fish - 7/28/2008 10:06:22 PM
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rcjones
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We can both agree that this is different than the literal-historical, and that the literal-historical is important.
We should also agree that you cannot mix the two methods... that should be easy.
_____________________________
Riddle me this:
Job 8.9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
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RE: The method of 153 fish - 7/28/2008 10:08:55 PM
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rcjones
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
I don't know yet... But we have to find something. ;)
Well, I feel safe in saying we both believe that Scripture is God's inspired, infallible word.
Also, that without the Spirit's guidance, one may have an intellectual knowledge of what the Bible says, but that only through the Spirit can one really understand and live out its teachings.
These are a bit basic, but hey, they're something.
I agree with those.... post timer kicked in
.
_____________________________
Riddle me this:
Job 8.9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
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RE: The method of 153 fish - 7/28/2008 10:09:47 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
We can both agree that this is different than the literal-historical, and that the literal-historical is important.
We should also agree that you cannot mix the two methods... that should be easy.
Indeed. : )
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The method of 153 fish - 7/28/2008 10:15:23 PM
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rcjones
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OK so we are likely to be fairly close theologically, so evaluating if something looks like Christ should be a no-brainer. It simply means it doesn't contradict solid scripture. What it may contradict are the constructs we build to make sense of the scripture.
We have to be able to distinguish between what the scripture says and what we think it says. This is the toughest hurdle in practice, but the shadows do not require too much adjustment. They verbalize things differently but mean the same.
For instance "married his limping side" is not the way we usually think of Christ, but when we meditate upon it, it makes perfect sense since he has a bruised heel. Trying to fit that into a physics model is quite problematic and beyond the scope of what I do with shadows.
_____________________________
Riddle me this:
Job 8.9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
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RE: The method of 153 fish - 7/28/2008 10:28:58 PM
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rcjones
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So lets approach it like a children's game.
You are looking at the Christmas tree, now tell me why we use an evergreen tree. Because he is divine and has everlasting life 'fir' us. [pun intended]
The game says that whatever you read in the Bible will cause you to think of something else in the Bible.
There are some excellent articles in the papers above on how we recognize types and the guy at Bible.org suggests that God also speaks to the right brain, not just the left.
This is the essence of the Jewish "tasting" of the word vs. the Greek dissection of it.
This just explains a bit on how it is different from the literal-historical method.
Now the concern that everyone agrees upon is that of controls. But controls must be naturally imposed by the scriptures rather than invented by men. I don't know why it has to be that way. It just seems right if God is doing it.
Any agreement here?
_____________________________
Riddle me this:
Job 8.9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
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RE: The method of 153 fish - 7/28/2008 10:30:59 PM
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TJO5
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjones
quote:
quote:
And since we are to "let everyman be a liar and God be true", outside references are not required to solve the riddles and see the shadows.
So, you don't study the historical context for Scripture?
Of course I do... for the literal-historical interpretation. The pashat never loses its meaning.
I do not use outside sources except Hebrew and Greek dictionaries for the shadows. Scripture interprets scripture, unlike some of the wild inventions that literalists have to make.
Hello rcjones,
After reading some of the discussion in 153 fish- perusing the site you posted in the sensus plenior thread and such it occurs to me that the main problem you have with getting your point across isthat you refer to the deeper meanings you discover as shadows,which to many infer a kind of hiding from thge light.
If you referred to the same discoveries as facets (for example)of the revelation of Christ I don't think it would sound as negative.
I believe there is definitely deeper meaning in scripture which a rigidly structured hermeneutic such as PaRDeS can uncover (much of Jesus' teachings as well as interpretations of N.T. authors show us this),but I must respect the need for caution,because an unbalanced interpretation could possibly lead to error.
The fact that you are willing to share what you see is very encouraging however,as early on I learned that one of satan's tricks is to puff up certain people and have them keep the revelations they get to themselves--because "other christians" just aren't ready for the deep revelations.
I believe this is a part of the Mystery Babylon spoken of in revelation-secret knowledge for only those who are initiated.
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
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RE: The method of 153 fish - 7/28/2008 10:37:33 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1717
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quote:
Any agreement here?
If it's right, and I'll readily admit that it could, possibly, be right, then sure.
But I don't think every portion of Scripture is meant to hint at another portion of Scripture, as you say.
To re-use your example - I think that, sometimes, we just use evergreen trees because they look nice and hold up well inside. They are used to enhance our celebration of Christ's birth, but not used to illustrate who Christ is.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The method of 153 fish - 7/28/2008 11:04:26 PM
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rcjones
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TJO5
Hello rcjones,
After reading some of the discussion in 153 fish- perusing the site you posted in the sensus plenior thread and such it occurs to me that the main problem you have with getting your point across is that you refer to the deeper meanings you discover as shadows,which to many infer a kind of hiding from the light.
If you referred to the same discoveries as facets (for example)of the revelation of Christ I don't think it would sound as negative.
I believe there is definitely deeper meaning in scripture which a rigidly structured hermeneutic such as PaRDeS can uncover (much of Jesus' teachings as well as interpretations of N.T. authors show us this),but I must respect the need for caution,because an unbalanced interpretation could possibly lead to error.
Thanks for the note and for taking a look. I use the term the way the author of Hebrews does "the law, having a shadow.." I've tried riddles, and "dark sayings" sure scares people. The claim is a rather fantastic one, and it should be looked at with skepticism, maybe facets is unscriptural enough that it won't carry baggage ;)
As for unbalanced interpretations, if you could join in the discussion on the controlling rules we are trying to get in to it might be helpful. Besides the rules, collaboration keeps you out of trouble. Doing alone sometimes I get lazy, and later the mistakes just don't work somewhere else. They get corrected eventually, but they are a nuisance while they are still there.
If you consider the claim and try to apply it to another work, you realize tat it must be divine to even exist, if in fact it exists.
Take the story of Paul Bunyan, then by substituting meanings from the dictionary, and a limited set of shadows that must be the same everywhere they are used, transform it into a story of Washington crossing the Delaware.
I am far from being able to say that every verse in the Bible does this, but so far, every verse I have looked at does. This is one of the challenges of posting in various forums. To apply the hermeneutic in places where the hints aren't obvious.
quote:
The fact that you are willing to share what you see is very encouraging however,as early on I learned that one of satan's tricks is to puff up certain people and have them keep the revelations they get to themselves--because "other christians" just aren't ready for the deep revelations.
I believe this is a part of the Mystery Babylon spoken of in revelation-secret knowledge for only those who are initiated.
Yours in Christ,
T.J.
Well, as I have said many times, they aren't secret. Children can see them. There is enough stuff posted on the site that someone studying it can go see them for themselves and should be able to fill in holes where I haven't gotten around to it yet. Should I get hit by a truck, I know my ten year old daughter could teach you to do it. They really are child's play.
I started sharing them the day I saw them and have had an uphill battle just to get to polite conversation. So if they remain a secret it isn't 'cause I'm not trying to share.
_____________________________
Riddle me this:
Job 8.9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
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