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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 7/29/2008 6:02:54 PM
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DwB37
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Well if that statement of faith is accurate then I sure feel like a big dumby for even asking about them. But from an online search I could only confirm a few of them.
I was surprised to learn that they still believe Jesus is the only way to the Father and salvation. So it seems feasible that they could "accept" Christ as Lord without fully accepting His divine nature. But then you would have to re-interpret John-3:16 to make this possible.
And to say they don't believe in Hell as in eternal suffering is not far from what many Christians are leaning towards these days. I personally believe the lost will simply be blotted out at the Judgement as if they never existed,then thrown in the Lake of Fire.
Jesus also spoke of an "outer darkness" similar to how writers of the Old Testament spoke of the "grave" or "Sheol" as a place utter dark nothingness.
But their are too many other oddball beliefs there and to say only a JW can be "saved" is just downright wacky!
But one thing we can agree on is they are very secretive to say the least.
I recently called up a few in my area and didn't even get an answering machine,and they don't even have their service times posted.
I have a good mind to show up at one of their "public meetings" unannounced just to show them a true believer is not intimidated by them. Besides,if they can come knock on our doors uninvited shouldn't we be able to do the same in return?? Imagine if we all started to do this and told them we would stop if they did first!
I guess it would be funny if it wasn't so serious.
I think these people could be seriously messed up in their minds,and I don't mean to spout conspiracy theories,but it wouldn't surprise me if they were blowing strange substances through the AC ducts at their public gatherings...unbeknownst to the congregation.
At least it would explain why there in such a good mood all the time.
Nice people maybe,but a bit too nice if you catch my drift.
Just my observations...
~DB
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"For this cause also we thank God without ceasing;for when you received the Word which you heard of us,you received it not as the word of men,but as it is in truth,the Word of God,which effectually works also in you that believe."
{1st Thess.-2:13}
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 7/30/2008 4:16:39 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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quote:
So, who are you and I to Judge God's Creations which He has called 'Good' as though they will be condemned without a fair assessment of Scripture regarding the Fruits evident from The Presence of God's Works in someone life? For God knows what He put in a person. It is The Father's Garden and HE will prune it and tend as HE sees fit. If He wants to recreate you and offer you by Grace through Faith on Christ found in Holy Gospel of God, all the more are we a People who can be the Most Benefitted. For we are now of The City New Jerusalem of The Holy Chosen People of God. For it is written: when gentiles do things of the law of Moses, God put directly into them in accordance with what is written in The Prophets. Now there are many cities, but this is the Most Treasured Offering Imaginable for humans. The Holy Apostles were counted worthy of suffering for The Name of Jesus Christ and were overjoyed at the Marvelous Opportunity that they were given. For they are Martyrs and Will Reign with Christ in Jerusalem for one thousand years.
cybrjewls:
Stringing partial biblical sentences together doesnt prove your point. In all seriousness you cannot make love drown truth nor can you make the grace of God the handmaid of falsehood. But from what Ive read evasion and rhetoric surrounded by a head-spinning diatribe works wonders for giving an appearance of spiritual truth...at least you seem to think so.
John
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Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 8/2/2008 3:03:23 PM
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DwB37
Posts: 22
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From: Roswell,GA.-[B. in North Carolina]
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>>"For unto us a child is born,unto us a son is given,and the government shall be upon His shoulder;and His name shall be called Wonderful,Counsellor,the Mighty GOD(Jehovah),the Everlasting FATHER,the Prince of Peace."
{Isaiah-9:6}
Two choices--believe it or blot it out of your Bible.
_____________________________
"For this cause also we thank God without ceasing;for when you received the Word which you heard of us,you received it not as the word of men,but as it is in truth,the Word of God,which effectually works also in you that believe."
{1st Thess.-2:13}
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/14/2008 4:22:52 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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quote:
In all seriousness you cannot make love drown truth nor can you make the grace of God the handmaid of falsehood.
I liked that statement
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/14/2008 5:10:41 PM
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tomhillbilly
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hi first off=fantastic posts cybrjewls!
Allow me to share my experiences with some jehovas witnesses. I went to their church three times and sat in on three-six book studies i believe they called them. I can only attest to what they told me and what i saw in their church. In order to be as brief as possible i will only list the teachings that they told me from the many others i have heard people talk about here and in chat and other places.
They do not follow trinity doctrine, however they also do not place jesus as equal with God
They do not believe in hell as eternal suffering, but the "blotting out" as mentioned by our original poster
they absolutely believe in jesus' death on the cross for the propitiation of sins
they pray in jesus name and believe in repentance for the remission of sins
the 144,000 people spoken of are those with a "heavenly hope" and those of this group would know who they are. at their annual communion a person with this heavenly hope would be the only ones to drink the wine or eat the bread
they never said that only jehovas witnesses are part of this 144,000 or that everyone else with an earthly hope would only be jehovas witnesses either
that is it as far as what i can attest to from personal experience
now on a personal note it seems to me that most all religions and christians think only people that think and act just like they do are "saved" and i got this same impression from jehovas witnesses, theyre just alot nicer about it
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/14/2008 5:45:19 PM
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themoodyexperience
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
now on a personal note it seems to me that most all religions and christians think only people that think and act just like they do are "saved" and i got this same impression from jehovas witnesses, theyre just alot nicer about it
I could show you a 'nice' athiest, but that doesn't mean they aren't utterly deceived.
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Of course thieves hate watch-dogs, and love darkness. It is time that somebody should spring his rattle, and call attention to the way in which God is being robbed of his glory, and man of his hope.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/14/2008 5:51:46 PM
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GodsMusic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
Allow me to share my experiences with some jehovas witnesses.
They do not follow trinity doctrine, however they also do not place jesus as equal with God
That's enough right there to keep you out of Heaven and into Hell for all eternity.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/14/2008 5:57:13 PM
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tomhillbilly
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maybe you shouldnt spend to much time with atheists moody
Godsmusic if i recall correctly jesus decides who enters Gods kingdom
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/14/2008 6:01:03 PM
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themoodyexperience
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
maybe you shouldnt spend to much time with atheists moody
Godsmusic if i recall correctly jesus decides who enters Gods kingdom
I actually don't know any atheists. That was just an example of niceness not equalling correctness. I do know a few agnostics though. After talking to them until you're blue in the face all you can do is live your life hoping they'll see Jesus in you and want to know more.
_____________________________
Of course thieves hate watch-dogs, and love darkness. It is time that somebody should spring his rattle, and call attention to the way in which God is being robbed of his glory, and man of his hope.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/14/2008 6:03:15 PM
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tomhillbilly
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i agree moody thats really all we can do
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/14/2008 6:03:29 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
if i recall correctly jesus decides who enters Gods kingdom
Believing in a false Jesus would be more than enough to not be saved. Faith is only as valid as the object it is placed in.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/14/2008 6:16:06 PM
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tomhillbilly
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jesus isnt false earthless either way, people just interpret scripture differnt is all
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/14/2008 6:23:55 PM
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themoodyexperience
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I remember back during the zenith of the Lakeland debacle, I was talking with a supporter of Bentley who finally said, "Anything that leads someone to Jesus!" And as I thought about it later, I thought about Jehovah's Witness, Mormons and other cults that have Jesus as part of their theology. I've been meaning to ask my friend about this and how will he respond. I submit that these pathways should lead to the Jesus of the Bible, and I also submit that these cults do not.
_____________________________
Of course thieves hate watch-dogs, and love darkness. It is time that somebody should spring his rattle, and call attention to the way in which God is being robbed of his glory, and man of his hope.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/14/2008 6:26:53 PM
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Child4Jesus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
Jesus isn't false earthless either way, people just interpret scripture different is all.
Are you kidding?
JWs Jesus is not God, but a god. He is also somehow the archangel Michael before being born as a man and after He raised. This Jesus is a created being.
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In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/14/2008 7:33:26 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
jesus isnt false earthless either way, people just interpret scripture differnt is all
When Jesus came to Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples the mother of all questions, "Who do you say that I am?" (Matthew 16:15, Mark 8:29, Luke 9:20).
Mormons answer this question by saying that Jesus is the spirit brother of Lucifer; Jehovah Witnesses answer by saying that Jesus is the archangel Michael; New Agers say Jesus is an avatar or enlightened messenger.
Jesus, however, answered by claiming that he was God.
If I believe in a 'Jesus' that is the brother of Satan and is not God.. then how can you say that is not a false Jesus as opposed to the true Jesus revealed to us in God's Word which is the Bible?
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/14/2008 7:35:18 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: themoodyexperience
I remember back during the zenith of the Lakeland debacle, I was talking with a supporter of Bentley who finally said, "Anything that leads someone to Jesus!" And as I thought about it later, I thought about Jehovah's Witness, Mormons and other cults that have Jesus as part of their theology. I've been meaning to ask my friend about this and how will he respond. I submit that these pathways should lead to the Jesus of the Bible, and I also submit that these cults do not.
It is a true (and dangerous/demonic) sign of the relativism of our day and age. Jesus Himself asked His disciples who do you say I am? Because faith is only as valid as the object it is placed in.
I can have all the sincere faith in the world that Jesus who lives down the block from and works at Taco-Bell is my Savior!!
But because he is not the Jesus (God) of Scripture, I am dead in my sin and hell bound.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/14/2008 7:50:11 PM
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7OFUS
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quote:
It is a true (and dangerous/demonic) sign of the relativism of our day and age. Jesus Himself asked His disciples who do you say I am? Because faith is only as valid as the object it is placed in.
I can have all the sincere faith in the world that Jesus who lives down the block from and works at Taco-Bell is my Savior!!
But because he is not the Jesus (God) of Scripture, I am dead in my sin and hell bound.
Not only is this biblical, isn't it just common sense?
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/14/2008 8:54:46 PM
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Child4Jesus
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Well like it is said, "Common sense isn't always common."
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In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/15/2008 5:18:33 AM
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tomhillbilly
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It would seem there is alot of scripture that point to jesus drawing a difference between himself and "the Father".
One in particular that always struck me is jesus being tempted of the devil just after being baptized of john and before the beginning of his ministry.
simply, i dont understand the idea of God being tempted or what sense or purpose this serves
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/15/2008 8:03:26 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
It would seem there is alot of scripture that point to jesus drawing a difference between himself and "the Father".
One in particular that always struck me is jesus being tempted of the devil just after being baptized of john and before the beginning of his ministry.
simply, i dont understand the idea of God being tempted or what sense or purpose this serves
So you don't believe Jesus is God? Well, let's see what Scripture has to say about that very important question:
Jesus claimed to be the unique Son of God. As a result, the Jewish leaders tried to kill him because in "calling God His own Father, Jesus was making himself equal with God" (John 5:18).
In John 8:58 Jesus went so far as to use the very words by which God revealed himself to Moses from the burning bush (Exodus 3:14). To the Jews this was the epitome of blasphemy for they knew that in doing so Jesus was clearly claiming to be God.
On yet another occasion, Jesus explicitly told the Jews: "I and the Father are one.' Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me? We are not stoning you for any of these, ' replied the Jews, 'but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God (John 10:30-33).
Furthermore, Jesus made an unmistakable claim to deity before the Chief Priests and the whole Sanhedrin. Caiaphas the High Priest asked him: "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One? 'I am,' said Jesus. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven" (Mark 14:61-62).
A biblically illiterate person might well have missed the import of Jesus' words.
Caiaphas and the Council, however, did not. They knew that in saying he was "the Son of Man" who would come "on the clouds of heaven" he was making a overt reference to the Son of Man in Daniel's prophecy (Daniel 7:13-14).
And in doing so, he was not only claiming to be the pre-existent Sovereign of the Universe but prophesying that he would vindicate his claim by judging the very court that was now condemning him.
Moreover, by combining Daniel's prophecy with David's proclamation in Psalm 110, Jesus was claiming that he would sit upon the throne of Israel's God and share God's very glory.
To students of the Old Testament this was the height of "blasphemy," thus "they all condemned him as worthy of death" (Mark 14:64).
Finally, Jesus claimed to possess the very attributes of God.
For example, he claimed omniscience by telling Peter, "this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times" (Matthew 26:34); declared omnipotence by not only resurrecting Lazarus (John 11:43) but by raising himself from the dead (see John 2:1(); and professed omnipresence by promising he would be with his disciples "to the very end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).
Not only so, but Jesus said to the paralytic in Luke 5:20, "Friend, your sins are forgiven." In doing so, he claimed a prerogative reserved for God alone. In addition, when Thomas worshiped Jesus saying, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:20), Jesus responded with commendation rather than condemnation.
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/15/2008 11:22:56 AM
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GodsMusic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
It would seem there is alot of scripture that point to jesus drawing a difference between himself and "the Father".
"JN 10:30 I and my Father are one."
"JN 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?"
"Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"
Just to name a few. Doesn't Murray teach you this, ole chap?
This is the basics of Christianity. Jesus said in John chapter 8 that "you'll die in your sins if you do not believe I am he".
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/15/2008 1:34:23 PM
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tomhillbilly
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ok ok gee-wiz dont bite my head off. I know how important the trinity is to people here, and i never went against it. I just wanted to point out that other would quote other scriptures to prove the opposite,possibly even claim a different interpretation of the ones you folks used.
great scriptures everyone
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/15/2008 2:12:55 PM
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figmentPez
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
ok ok gee-wiz dont bite my head off. I know how important the trinity is to people here, and i never went against it. I just wanted to point out that other would quote other scriptures to prove the opposite,possibly even claim a different interpretation of the ones you folks used.
Trinitarian doctrine should be important to all Christians everywhere. As for "other scriptures" do you mean ones outside of the Bible? Because no matter what verses from the Bible are quoted, they are part of proper trinitarian teaching. And, concerning different interpretations, those alternate understandings will always lead to severe conflict when compared to scripture as a whole. It is impossible to teach other than trinitarian doctrine, while avoiding serious error about who God is said to be.
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Read Daniel 7:13-14
And tell me: Who do you say that the Son of Man is?
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/15/2008 2:44:03 PM
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tomhillbilly
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well one in particular that i wondered about but noone responded to was where jesus was tempted by the devil. Im sure we would all agree that there is no point at all in "tempting" God and that it is not possible.
This being the case, there must be another purpose here as all scriptures serve some sort of learning purpose
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RE: What's so bad about JW's?? - 11/15/2008 3:28:13 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tomhillbilly
well one in particular that i wondered about but noone responded to was where jesus was tempted by the devil. Im sure we would all agree that there is no point at all in "tempting" God and that it is not possible.
This has been more than covered in the one-stop Trinity thread.. but are you familiar with the hypostatic union?
Jesus is fully God and fully man. The hypostatic union is the term used to describe how God the Son, Jesus Christ, took on a human nature, yet remained fully God at the same time.
Jesus always had been God (John 8:58; 10:30), but at the incarnation Jesus took on human flesh - He became a human being (John 1:14).
The addition of the human nature to the divine nature is Jesus, the God-man. This is the hypostatic union, Jesus Christ, one Person, fully God and fully man.
Jesus' two natures, human and divine, are inseparable. Jesus will forever be the God-man, fully God and fully human, two distinct natures in one Person. Jesus' humanity and divinity are not mixed, but are united without loss of separate identity.
Jesus sometimes operated with the limitations of humanity (John 4:6; 19:28) and other times in the power of His deity (John 11:43; Matthew 14:18-21).
In both, Jesus' actions were from His one Person. Jesus had two natures, but only one person or personality.
The doctrine of the hypostatic union is an attempt to explain how Jesus could be both God and man at the same time.
It is ultimately, though, a doctrine that we are incapable of fully understanding. It is impossible for us to fully understand how God works. We, as finite human beings, should not expect to be able to comprehend an infinite God. Jesus is God’s Son in that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35).
But that does not mean Jesus did not exist before He was conceived. Jesus always has existed (John 8:58; 10:30). When Jesus was conceived, He became a human being in addition to being God (John 1:1,14).
Jesus is both God and man. Jesus has always been God, but He did not become a human being until He was conceived in Mary.
Jesus became a human being so that He could identify with us in our struggles (Hebrews 2:17) and, more importantly, so that He could die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins (Philippians 2:5-11).
In summary, the hypostatic union teaches that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, that there is no mixture or dilution of either nature, and that He is one united Person, forever.
Just another aspect why what Jehovah Witnesses teach, from point A to Z, is contrary to biblical Christianity.
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