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[Poll]
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Is the church building a sacred or holy place?
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| Yes it is. secular activities should not go on there |
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| no, just a building. Use it for whatever is not sinful. |
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| I don't like secular in the sanctuary, but that is just my opinon. |
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| other |
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Total Votes : 42
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(last vote on : 8/16/2008 8:34:59 PM)
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/28/2008 7:57:41 AM
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armydude
Posts: 16902
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Gathering in His Name means a focus on Him, for Him. There is a difference in a group of people be gathered together doing something, dressing it up and calling it church.
Gathering together to focus on Him can be church. Gathering to fellowship, Christian or not, and Jesus is not the one being focused on or honored is not church.
So if someone were to host a gathering that was focused on Jesus, even if someone else couldn't see the focus, it would still be church?
Got it.
I would think people gathering together to worship, praise, study, pray etc, people would know the primary focus before hand. It's not like we go places, walk in and hear "Surprise, it's Bible Study worship time". 
However, I've been to places where we gathered together and the guy said, "I'd like to tell you something." He fit it into the program perfectly, so it's not as though people felt things were being forced on them. It wasn't overtly described beforehand as a "bible study". If it were, some people (including me at the time) wouldn't have gone. But the way it was brought up, I wasn't offended. And seeds were planted.
_____________________________
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/28/2008 8:47:02 AM
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Qtman
Posts: 9929
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
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Dude I am like you. I have been to events that were not planned as a church(worship) service and something happend and church broke out. This has even happened to me driving down the road. I would be listening to my SG music and hear a song and the next thing I know I and crying and having a wonderful worship experience in the presence of God. I am sure the other people on the road thought me crazy.
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/28/2008 9:54:13 AM
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KatMack
Posts: 1038
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Along the Canopy Roads
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Can some one PLEASE give bluestone stars for that post!
--Kat
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<-- My sweet blessings.
"God will do what God will do. What I'm responsible for is to believe he's all he says he is and obey what he tells me to do. " -magdaleine
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/28/2008 10:38:40 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3642
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KatMack
Can some one PLEASE give bluestone stars for that post!
--Kat
Well, if it were in my power, I would.
But something is very confusing to me here. It appears that some do not understand that for a believer, Messiah is the focus; He is always the focus. -- In all things. What could believers possibly do inside a building intended as a place of worship of the One and Only True G-d that does not focus upon Him? So you have a dinner for the congregation: is He not still the focus? So you have an exercise class: is He not the focus? So you have a wedding rehearsal: is He not the focus? So you have a basement sale: is He not the focus? When is He not the focus for believers in their buildings, in life, in the family? If He is not the focus, why not? He is an all-consuming fire: why have things in a believer's life that do not focus on Him not burned? I do wish someone would explain this to me.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/28/2008 10:42:43 AM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
Joined: 2/25/2008
From: United States of America
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I think the general idea is that we can do things in the church building that remove the focus from Christ. At least, I think that is the concern for some people.
Secular music
secular speakers talking about secular subjects.
renting out the building for a variety of uses.
_____________________________
I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/28/2008 10:45:49 AM
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DougHorton
Posts: 934
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
But something is very confusing to me here. It appears that some do not understand that for a believer, Messiah is the focus; He is always the focus. -- In all things. What could believers possibly do inside a building intended as a place of worship of the One and Only True G-d that does not focus upon Him? So you have a dinner for the congregation: is He not still the focus? So you have an exercise class: is He not the focus? So you have a wedding rehearsal: is He not the focus? So you have a basement sale: is He not the focus? When is He not the focus for believers in their buildings, in life, in the family? If He is not the focus, why not? He is an all-consuming fire: why have things in a believer's life that do not focus on Him not burned? I do wish someone would explain this to me.
That's the way it SHOULD be, but we all know that is not the reality. God knew we would be like that and ordained the Sabbath and authorized specific places where His name would be kept holy.
If we do not make purposeful steps to separate (sanctify, keep holy) the Sabbath and our places of worship, our tendency, as fallen humans, would be to drag everything down to our level until we are calling evil good, exalting ourselves and worshipping our own ideas, which is idolatry.
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Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/28/2008 10:51:18 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
But something is very confusing to me here. It appears that some do not understand that for a believer, Messiah is the focus; He is always the focus. -- In all things. What could believers possibly do inside a building intended as a place of worship of the One and Only True G-d that does not focus upon Him? So you have a dinner for the congregation: is He not still the focus? So you have an exercise class: is He not the focus? So you have a wedding rehearsal: is He not the focus? So you have a basement sale: is He not the focus? When is He not the focus for believers in their buildings, in life, in the family? If He is not the focus, why not? He is an all-consuming fire: why have things in a believer's life that do not focus on Him not burned? I do wish someone would explain this to me.
Bluestone, brought up a very good point. During the activities you mentioned, I don't believe He is the focus. At a wedding, the focus is not intended to be of God, God honoring, yes, but the attention is to the wedding couple. It is designed to be a celebration of their union. A celebration period. A dinner is a focus on fellowship, maybe it is fellowshipping with Christians, maybe not. In our culture, we simply do not revolve around worship. I know some will disagree with me on this. We are a very selfish people. Our time is separated from constant worship. We are not monks, we have this really annoying character flaw that involves self-centeredness. Sometimes it really is about us, and sometimes it's not. None of us here can claim that every moment we live and breath are we thinking about God. It's not in our very nature. In fact our very nature is designed against that. It's where the dying to self comes in. We can spout super religious sounding stuff or we can get very real and admit the truth about ourselves. We can make it sound as though anything we do honors God when in reality, not all of it does, good intentions or not. I know that's true in my life and I'm fairly normal. Does culture have everything to do with it? No. Upbringing? No. Intentions? Yes.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/28/2008 11:05:28 AM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4976
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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quote:
Secular music
secular speakers talking about secular subjects.
renting out the building for a variety of uses.
As for secular music, I can't see a church building letting just any old secular music group in the church building for a concert, because many of them have questionable lyrics and do not glorify God. But we're talking specifically about using for non-sinful purposes, and not all secular music is sinful. I've belonged to more than one homeschool group in my life, and we often use church buildings for talent shows and performances. Last year my little brother dressed up like a cowboy and played his guitar and sang, "The Streets of Laredo--A Cowboy's Lament." My sister dressed up like Yum-Yum and sang "The Sun Whose Rays Are All Ablaze" from "The Mikado." They've also done plays such as "Anne of Green Gables" and "Little Women" in churches.
As for speakers talking about secular subjects, I remember that our church we attended while my husband was in school used to let a lot of different groups use the building. The police academy used the santuary for their graduation ceremony, and we also had a post 9-11 deal to honor emergency personal and other local heroes.
They also would rent the building out for other groups. I remember once when they rented the fellowship hall out to a group for a model train fair, and we had our homeschool science fair at the church, too.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/28/2008 11:44:24 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3642
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
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Maybe it's my culture, maybe it's my age, but I am no less confused. I had assumed that among believers, those who observe Sabbath as Doug Horton brought up and those who do public worship on Sunday, their focus for the week, in all they do, was like an arrow always pointing toward their main day of worship, like a homing pigeon always headed toward home.
Tonight, where I attend, we will have a speaker from Israel. The man is not a believer in our Messiah, but without giving much information, what is our purpose for his speaking on a Monday night to our congregation? Having been in contact with him for some time, it is to learn more about what he is experiencing in Israel, with our focus on Messiah and on His people. Messiah may not be his focus at this time, but he is fully aware of our focus. Messiah is always the focus.
When a couple marries there, they are not the first focus. The first focus is Messiah and obedience to Him. The couple is secondary. When we eat there each Sabbath after the service, for the believers among us, the focus is Messiah.
No, my every breath is not about Him because sometimes, He goes out of focus, but recognition that He is out of focus is what brings me back to reality -- that He is the only legitimate focus in all things. I have a thread here regarding my own "sin that so easily besets me," and every time I drop a dollar in the little black box on my dashboard, it brings my focus back to him.
And what is the purpose of a church sponsoring and participating in what is called "secular" activities? Is it not to bring people in to your churches? Is not doing such things to bring people in, who may return because of the experience, focusing on Messiah? The church I work for allows neighborhood safety groups to use their church for monthly meetings. Is not allowing a group to gather for the good of the neighborhood and their safety the work of Messiah?
Are not the police doing G-d's work? Are not those who pick up our refuse doing the work of G-d? Are not those who keep roads, bridges, and buildings safe doing the work of G-d? All these things, that keep us safe, that preserve life, are the work of G-d.
Next time you drive by a sweaty crew retarring your street, it would be a good idea to roll down your window, hand them a glistening six-pack of Pepsi, and thank them for doing the work of G-d.
I think that some lose focus that getting up out of bed in the morning is a gift of the mercy of G-d, while if we are staying in bed, refusing to do what He has enabled us and commanded us to do, is the opposite. Brushing your teeth ought to be an act of worship. Your work ought to be an act of worship. Relieving yourself should be done with a heart grateful to G-d, and if you ever cannot relieve yourself, you will quickly learn why it should be done with a grateful heart.
So certainly, what is done in the building where you worship ought to be with the focus on G-d . . . .
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/28/2008 11:50:36 AM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4279
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
(Mat 18:20) For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
That's a verse.
Thsnks
RC
in the context of what?
church discipline
Otherwise...if I'm alone, are we saying that God is not with me, He doesn't listen to my prayer?
nevermind...totally off topic
******************************
I meet with a few friends during the week at a local coffee shop and we have "church" with a focus on Jesus. I meet with even more people on Saturday evenings in our home and we have "church" with a focus on Jesus. I used to go to a specific building and we did "church" with a focus on Jesus.
So...I don't really think too much about the place, but more about the atmosphere of people there.
_____________________________
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/28/2008 11:56:43 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
in the context of what?
Defining church.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Is the church building a sacred or holy place? - 7/28/2008 12:39:55 PM
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KatMack
Posts: 1038
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Along the Canopy Roads
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
in the context of what?
Defining church.
Actually, as doink stated, when looked at in context, it's church DISCIPLINE addressed in that passage:
Matthew 18:15-20
A Brother Who Sins Against You
15"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'[c] 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be[d]bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven.
19"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."
--Kat
_____________________________
<-- My sweet blessings.
"God will do what God will do. What I'm responsible for is to believe he's all he says he is and obey what he tells me to do. " -magdaleine
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