question on ancient civilizations (Full Version)

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jmjphe -> question on ancient civilizations (7/24/2008 3:19:23 PM)

I have a question on ancient civilizations. We know they exsisted and have some ideas to there cultures and lifestyles. Some examples would be the Aztecs, Mayans, Native American tribes prior to european settelment and so on and so forth.

My question is, does the bible make reference to such cultures and civilizations? From my limited knowledge the bible tends to focus on events and people in the Middle-east, northern Africa, and parts of Europe. These civilizations seem to pre-date Christ on Earth and Im sure had no knoweldge to the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob (I say that with a more old-testament flavor).

I appreciate any clever thoughts on this subject but what I' really looking for is any scripture that makes references to such things as acknowleding thier exsistence, how God viewed them, or any related information. Maybe someone here has looked into this subject and has some further insight.



colliefan -> RE: question on ancient civilizations (7/24/2008 3:27:43 PM)

Rom 1:18 - 32 (HCSB) 18For God’s wrath£ is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth, 19since what can be known£ about God is evident among them,£ because God has shown it to them. 20From the creation of the world£ His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what He has made.£ As a result, people£ are without excuse.

21For though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became nonsense, and their senseless minds£ were darkened.£ 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools£ 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man, birds, four-footed animals, and reptiles.£ 24Therefore God delivered them over in the cravings of their hearts£ to sexual impurity, so that their bodies were degraded among themselves.

25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie,£ and worshiped and served something created instead of the Creator, who is blessed forever.£ £Amen. 26This is why God delivered them over to degrading passions.£ For even their females exchanged natural sexual intercourse£ for what is unnatural. 27The males in the same way also left natural sexual intercourse£ with females and were inflamed in their lust for one another. Males committed shameless acts with males£ and received in their own persons£ the appropriate penalty for their perversion.£

28And because they did not think it worthwhile to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them over to a worthless mind to do what is morally wrong. 29They are filled with all unrighteousness,£ evil, greed, and wickedness. They are full of envy, murder, disputes, deceit, and malice. They are gossips,£ 30slanderers, God-haters, arrogant, proud, boastful,£ inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,£ 31undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving,£ £ and unmerciful. 32Although they know full well God’s just sentence—that those who practice such things deserve to die£ £—they not only do them, but even applaud£ £ others who practice them.



GrahamCracker -> RE: question on ancient civilizations (7/24/2008 3:54:32 PM)

The Bible makes absolutely no hint or reference to any North American or South American civilizations. None.



jmjphe -> RE: question on ancient civilizations (7/24/2008 4:19:53 PM)

Excellent reply colliefan thats actually quite exactly what i was looking for. I wasnt quite looking to find some kind of anthropological record in the bible. I am curious to see though if there is any references in old testament about people migrating to distant lands.



jmjphe -> RE: question on ancient civilizations (7/24/2008 4:29:34 PM)

Further I'd like to keep this open to allow others to give further insight as well as keep it open to my question posted in my above response being:

"I am curious to see though if there is any references in old testament about people migrating to distant lands."



Bluethread -> RE: question on ancient civilizations (7/24/2008 6:09:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmjphe

Excellent reply colliefan thats actually quite exactly what i was looking for. I wasnt quite looking to find some kind of anthropological record in the bible. I am curious to see though if there is any references in old testament about people migrating to distant lands.


Ge 10:25 Two sons were born to Eber: One was named Peleg, because in his time the earth was divided; his brother was named Joktan

Ge 11:9 That is why it was called Babel--because there the Lord confused the language of the whole world. From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the whole earth.

These are two verses that come to mind regarding the dispersion of mankind to the various places on earth.



DougHorton -> RE: question on ancient civilizations (7/24/2008 7:16:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmjphe
I am curious to see though if there is any references in old testament about people migrating to distant lands.


Only the records of Noah's descendants just after the flood.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: question on ancient civilizations (7/25/2008 6:37:23 AM)

There aren't any specific referrences to the migration of humanity from the "cradle of civilization" to the "new world". We can make guesses based on what we know from genetic studies and from the limited descriptions of humanity's dispersion, but they are just guesses.

There is some theorization that the "New World" was discovered not by the Vikings, but rather by the Phoenicians as early as 300 BC... but that is mostly theory about the trader/gold ships going "west" in the Bible. So, it's shaky, but almost possible.

Adam



Doghouse -> RE: question on ancient civilizations (7/25/2008 7:06:19 AM)

quote:

18For God’s wrath£ is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth
So, just what are you saying here, chief...? Sounds pretty judgmental and patently offensive, if I get what you are saying here.

The unjust oppression of native peoples and confiscation of their land and resources by white European Christians was done so under similar justifications. That doesn't make it right, and I am sure there are explorers and leaders of countries of all ilk roasting right now because of the sins of Christians in this regard.

I hope that I am completely misunderstanding what you were implying by your post. Hopefully, you will correct my error of interpretation here with an explaination.



TheCatholicCrusader -> RE: question on ancient civilizations (7/25/2008 7:09:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doghouse

quote:

18For God’s wrath£ is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth
So, just what are you saying here, chief...? Sounds pretty judgmental and patently offensive....


Not only judgmental and patently offensive, but also just taking a hunk of scripture and flinging it against the wall like mud and hoping a little will stick.

.
.



DougHorton -> RE: question on ancient civilizations (7/25/2008 10:46:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheCatholicCrusader

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doghouse

quote:

18For God’s wrath£ is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth
So, just what are you saying here, chief...? Sounds pretty judgmental and patently offensive....


Not only judgmental and patently offensive, but also just taking a hunk of scripture and flinging it against the wall like mud and hoping a little will stick.

.
.


It's only a quote from scripture. I don't know what point was being made either, but I don't see anything offensive in it. What are you two upset about?



jmjphe -> RE: question on ancient civilizations (7/25/2008 4:00:13 PM)

Thank you all very much you have given me a great starting place to extend my own research on such matters. In this topic i was looking for a few things and I recieved what i was looking for. These things being: Scripture giving some account (vague or detailed) on peoples migrating to distant lands different from those centeralized in the Bible, a reference to other religions possibly in these regions of the world, and also how God may have viewed these civilizations/religions. in regards to the quote from collie fan:

"18For God’s wrath£ is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth"

This was part of my inital question and he answered it with scripture based on my initial question below:


quote:

appreciate any clever thoughts on this subject but what I' really looking for is any scripture that makes references to such things as acknowleding thier exsistence, how God viewed them, or any related information.



DougHorton -> RE: question on ancient civilizations (7/25/2008 5:23:51 PM)

I realize that, but I see nothing "judgmental and patently offensive" in quoting scripture. It was an answer to a question.



Doghouse -> RE: question on ancient civilizations (7/25/2008 5:33:18 PM)

quote:

I realize that, but I see nothing "judgmental and patently offensive" in quoting scripture. It was an answer to a question.
To me, using that section of Scripture as an answer to the OP is categorizing a group of humans by culture, and then assuming to be God's authority and will in inflicting pain and suffering on that culture, all in the name of religion

quote:

32Although they know full well God’s just sentence—that those who practice such things deserve to die
This is up to God - not for man to decide that he is acting on God's behalf under God's authority to enact God's will.

Ironically - these were Catholics that did this to many natives, up until the Reformed got a good toe-hold on our shores. All participants who perpetrated injustice - whether in God's name or not - are likely suffering the real wrath of God as consequences for their actions, rather than suffering the man-made wrath mislabled as something other that they handed out.



PeterD -> RE: question on ancient civilizations (7/25/2008 5:39:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DougHorton

I realize that, but I see nothing "judgmental and patently offensive" in quoting scripture. It was an answer to a question.


Sir remember this for comfort...

1 Peter 2:6-8

6For it stands in Scripture:

"Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone,
a cornerstone chosen and precious,
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."

7So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,

"The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,"

8and

"A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense."


Peter



colliefan -> RE: question on ancient civilizations (7/25/2008 5:40:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DougHorton
I realize that, but I see nothing "judgmental and patently offensive" in quoting scripture. It was an answer to a question.



The truth of mankind's inherant sinful nature is the truth. And the truth hurts.

Rom 3:21 - 26 (ESV) 21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.


Rom 6:20 - 23 (ESV) 20When you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? The end of those things is death. 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.



DougHorton -> RE: question on ancient civilizations (7/25/2008 5:47:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doghouse

quote:

I realize that, but I see nothing "judgmental and patently offensive" in quoting scripture. It was an answer to a question.
To me, using that section of Scripture as an answer to the OP is categorizing a group of humans by culture, and then assuming to be God's authority and will in inflicting pain and suffering on that culture, all in the name of religion


Well, to be honest, it actually was God "categorizing a group of humans by culture", so I guess you need to address the problem with God.

BTW -- Culture is one way that groups of humans are categorized, and not only by Christians. Many atheists use the same categorizations.



colliefan -> RE: question on ancient civilizations (7/25/2008 5:52:40 PM)

quote:


...If Christian Doctrine were on trial, the Bible would be called as a witness. The Church serves as the judge...(Acts 15:28)


and which translation have you qouted in your sig?

Acts 15:27 - 29 (ESV) 27We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. 28For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: 29that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

(Douay-Rheims) 27We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who themselves also will, by word of mouth, tell you the same things. 28For it hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us to lay no further burden upon you than these necessary things: 29that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled° and from fornication: from which things keeping yourselves, you shall do well. Fare ye well.



PeterD -> RE: question on ancient civilizations (7/25/2008 6:15:50 PM)

Hello jmjphe


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ancient_Egypt

For the non-Christians of Ancient Egypt, Aztecs and Mayans, they do have the pyramid shapes in common. (triangles or Tower of Babel want to be's)

Later on did the people of the Aztecs and Mayans learn from the Tower of Babel or did they continue in there way.

Who were the early Christians that brought the Gospel of Jesus Christ to these people long ago while they were worshiping in their temples?

Peter



DougHorton -> RE: question on ancient civilizations (7/25/2008 6:40:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeterD

Hello jmjphe


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ancient_Egypt

For the non-Christians of Ancient Egypt, Aztecs and Mayans, they do have the pyramid shapes in common. (triangles or Tower of Babel want to be's)

Later on did the people of the Aztecs and Mayans learn from the Tower of Babel or did they continue in there way.

Who were the early Christians that brought the Gospel of Jesus Christ to these people long ago while they were worshiping in their temples?

Peter


Pour sand out of a bucket. It typically piles up at an angle, not a block. That separate ancient civilizations discovered that angular designs are the best way to build large structures does not necessarily indicate a common heritage any more than the weaving of cloth.

If South American cultures brought over these building techniques, why did they forget the much simpler invention of the wheel which predated the pyramids?



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