Thoughts on The Call? (Full Version)

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Peter_Gunn -> Thoughts on The Call? (7/24/2008 2:07:49 PM)

I'm not even sure this goes here, but...

Does anyone know anything about this?

http://thecall.com/

There is a couple I know that is VERY into this and I've never heard of it before.



WesP -> RE: Thoughts on The Call? (7/24/2008 2:49:19 PM)

I really do not know much about the specifics. The basic premise behind this organization is sound. They believe in prayer and fasting, and they gather in 12-hour segments in large groups to pray for revival to sweep across the country. I find no problem with multitudes praying for the Holy Spirit to convict sinners. If they go beyond that to a point that is wrong, I am unaware of it as yet.



wintery -> RE: Thoughts on The Call? (7/24/2008 4:00:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn

I'm not even sure this goes here, but...

Does anyone know anything about this?

http://thecall.com/

There is a couple I know that is VERY into this and I've never heard of it before.


Peter_Gunn, this was touched on in another thread. I can't remember where. Maybe you could use the search engine.



Stephanos -> RE: Thoughts on The Call? (7/24/2008 5:25:46 PM)

I believe (it was several months ago) that we touched on the The Call in the IHOP thread, as Lou Engel who is a close friend of and works with Mick Bickle, is one of the founding organizers of The Call. Because of this Adam is probably the best source of information on this that we have on these boards.

From what I have seen, I have to agree with Wes. The motives and goals of what the Call stands for (like IHOP) are good and well intentioned. No one can ever say that prayer and fasting is wrong, especially when the focus is geared towards praying for our leaders as the bible tells us to d.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: Thoughts on The Call? (7/25/2008 6:31:23 AM)

Stephanos is quite correct, we did bring up the call briefly during our last "roundtable" on IHOP-KC.

A lot of people have problems with specific things within The Call such as "prophetic demonstration", antiphonal prayer, and the combination of music, musical lyricism and prayer. However, most people would agree that praying for an extended time in a focused way for our nation is not a bad thing... some would agree that fasting during that time is not a bad thing either... it is the specific mechanics of the gathering or the person organizing the event that most people would love to argue about.

Adam

Student at Forerunner School of Ministry and sound tech at IHOP-KC.



Soxfan -> RE: Thoughts on The Call? (7/25/2008 8:02:16 AM)

The Call is a youth oriented group associated with C. Peter Wagner's NAR (New Apostolic Reformation) and other Latter Rain organizations.

Stay away



Stephanos -> RE: Thoughts on The Call? (7/25/2008 3:17:46 PM)

Soxs,

Is your only oppostition to "The Call" based on their affiliations with other people? Or do you have a problem with what the Call is actually about? Is prayer and fasting for our nation and our leaders a bad thing? Is what "The Call" actually does wrong. Never mind their connections, are they wrong?

I ask this because I need to know how people like you feel when i enter the ministry. I use to attend churches that were apart of the WOF movement, and I still have friends who do. I want to know if you will reject what ever ministry God places me in because of my past or who I know and am friends with.



Peter_Gunn -> RE: Thoughts on The Call? (7/25/2008 3:29:28 PM)

I have another question...

What do any of you know of the guy who organized The Call...Lou Engle? (If he's not the one, please let me know.)

And, apparently, he has close ties with Mike Bickle...who is he...what's he all about?



Gloryandgrace -> RE: Thoughts on The Call? (7/25/2008 5:23:59 PM)

becareful about putting 'guilt' on those who name Christ because they know or are associated with others who are unorthodox or evil.

Why? Because Jesus associates with you, and if you condemn unjustly in such a way, you condemn Jesus who is associating with you.

John



JimboFletch -> RE: Thoughts on The Call? (7/25/2008 5:31:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace

becareful about putting 'guilt' on those who name Christ because they know or are associated with others who are unorthodox or evil.

Why? Because Jesus associates with you, and if you condemn unjustly in such a way, you condemn Jesus who is associating with you.

John

Should the Mormon Tabernacle Choir then be supported and honored?



wintery -> RE: Thoughts on The Call? (7/25/2008 5:52:18 PM)

Oh, brother...prayer for our nation is all Lou Engle is about? Not so! Lou Engle's ideas are more akin to the top of an Aztec pyramid than teaching from a Bible.

Picking a few verses here and there, Engle constructs a picture of a bloodthirsty God who must be appeased by human sacrifice. Pre-Columbian culture includes the sacrifice of a human captive, the still-beating heart plucked from the chest and burned to appease the gods.
reference--http://maa.missouri.edu/exhibits/finalfarewell/sacrificeintro.html

Engle says one of the names of God is "the avenger of blood". To avert such bloodthirsty wrath, Engle leads his prayer meetings and seeks a "mantle" from God. Scroll halfway down this page (http://www.thecall.com/Articles/1000034579/TheCall/news/Resources_and_Downloads.aspx) to read a .pdf document called "The Doctrine of the Shedding of Innocent Blood" by Lou Engle. I'm only touching on these matters for brevity.

It's good to use a Bible and check verses in their context. For example, Genesis 9:5-6 is where God allows for the death penalty for murder. This is not a spooky demand for blood as Engle seems to portray.

See Lou Engle's teaching "The Doctrine of the Shedding of Innocent Blood", section 1, "The Certainty of Blood Guilt", point "R": What will it mean for God to deal with us for the shed blood of 50 million babies? Allen Hood had a dream of his sons in military fatigues. IHOP’s youth will not be at IHOP, but will be in military uniforms in foreign nations. We must stop abortion in America to stop this.

So there is an endorsement of a "prophetic dream" and an acquisition of this dream for a justification of Engle's organization and efforts and, more, an emphatic reason for becoming a follower of Engle.

In part II of the document "The Doctrine of the Shedding of Innocent Blood" by Lou Engle, point "J" states, "It is not enough that Jesus died. Someone must apply the blood of Jesus to the national sin of USA." Wrong. God calls sinners to repent-individually. The fantasy imagery of the so-called "prophetic movement" employed by Engle of applying the blood of Jesus to national sin is outside the understanding of Christ's redemption of the individual sinner. We see the redemptive value in Ephesians 2:13--But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (ESV) Those who are saved by the blood of Christ can draw near to God. Engle's idea resembles the idea of the use of faith as a force as he seeks to "save" a nation without saving the individuals who make up that nation.

In times past a scary mask and a sacrificial knife frightened the believing masses into a cooperative state of submission as they gathered around the bottom of the pyramid. Now all it takes is a website and a microphone to bring them into the concert venues...and a like state of cooperative submission to an erroneous teaching that takes hostage religion while using the seeking of God for a political goal and has the appearance of offering repentance on behalf of others in order to stop a literally dreamed-up disaster.

(edited to fix link)



Soxfan -> RE: Thoughts on The Call? (7/25/2008 8:45:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephanos

Soxs,

Is your only oppostition to "The Call" based on their affiliations with other people? Or do you have a problem with what the Call is actually about? Is prayer and fasting for our nation and our leaders a bad thing? Is what "The Call" actually does wrong. Never mind their connections, are they wrong?


My opposition to The Call is that it is exactly what I said it is...It is more than just affiliated with, it is an extension of the Latter Rain movement into the youth generation. It is evidenced by those that run it and those that are affiliated with it.

Lou Engle is a documented false prophet and proponent of the Latter Rain/Kingdom Now/Manifest Sons of God movements.

quote:

I ask this because I need to know how people like you feel when i enter the ministry. I use to attend churches that were apart of the WOF movement, and I still have friends who do. I want to know if you will reject what ever ministry God places me in because of my past or who I know and am friends with.


That is a very good quesiton. I would never judge you on the "company" you keep. Instead, as the Bible commands, I would test YOUR teaching against Scripture.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: Thoughts on The Call? (7/26/2008 4:05:38 AM)

quote:

What do any of you know of the guy who organized The Call...Lou Engle? (If he's not the one, please let me know.)

And, apparently, he has close ties with Mike Bickle...who is he...what's he all about?
Lou Engle- Part of the so called "prophetic movement" from the 80's and 90's, has been fascinated with prayer, fasting, and intercession for more than 20 years. He also founded The Call with Che Ahn back in early 2000. Main focus is praying for social reformation by God through (A) widespread revival and (B) change in the government (laws, leadership, w/e).

Mike Bickle- founder of the International House of Prayer who was also part of the prophetic movement and currently ministerial partner with The Call ministries. According to some, heretic extraordinaire... I don't buy it.
quote:

Picking a few verses here and there, Engle constructs a picture of a bloodthirsty God who must be appeased by human sacrifice. Pre-Columbian culture includes the sacrifice of a human captive, the still-beating heart plucked from the chest and burned to appease the gods.
Nice to know our last bout over the doctrine of bloodguilt sank in a little... (/end sarcasm) As I said, there is a difference between what Lou Engle says and what you are saying he says. No, God is not bloodthirsty... but He IS just. Because He is just, we recieve the just punishment of our sins if we do not repent and recieve covering under the blood of Jesus. Example, God has never been bloodthirsty, and yet commanded that if anyone committed murder, they must be executed. Even more tasty is the idea of God telling Israel to destroy all the inhabitants of Canaan because of two things... Idolatry (celebrities, anyone?) and shedding innocent blood (such as Abortion). Considering that both of these two sins are rampant in our nation, it would behoove us to repent of these sins, just like Daniel did in the midst of the Babylonian captivity.

In fact, wintery, the picture you paint is a gross misrepresentation of the entire doctrine. Because God is just, there are two possible outcomes for sins... either we repent by the blood of Jesus and are forgiven, or we recieve the just punishment for those sins. This is not just a nice idea, but it is the foundation for the entire idea of Heaven and Hell. Since God quite obviously judges sin in the physical "here and now" of life (such as the Canaanites and Hebrews), it is not beyond the scope of reality to believe that America has blood on its hands that needs to be repented for. It is pure fantasy to see God's judgements on Israel, Egypt, Edom, Assiriya, Babylon, and Persia listed in the Old Testament that came to fruition and believe that we as a nation can commit the same offense without earning the same reward. Or need I remind us all that the Blood of Jesus does no good without repentence?

Whenever the topic of forgiveness comes up, someone usually takes great delight in bringing up that God doesn't forgive without repentence happening first... and yet we are so hesitant to believe that God would judge unrepented sin as evil. The philosophical picture being painted is that God is thoroughly detached from our lives and only notices us when we come to Him... which is thoroughly different than the Biblical picture of God... in fact, it is more consistant with the American ideal of "limited government" than the actual pages of the Bible.

Adam

"The definition of insanity is to perform the same action over and over again, expecting a different result every time."



Gloryandgrace -> RE: Thoughts on The Call? (7/26/2008 1:43:03 PM)

quote:

Should the Mormon Tabernacle Choir then be supported and honored?


Jimbo:

Do you know mormons? Therefore I should condemn you? Do you know homosexuals, theives, liars, adulterers? Should I account you as proponent of their sins because you have some dealings with any of them? Is Jesus made dirty because we sin? Guilt by association is a poor way to judge the character of people, its a very superficial way of dealing with someone.

1Co 5:9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people--
1Co 5:10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
1Co 5:13 God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you." ESV

I make no case for or against some preachers who are under the scrutiny of you all, I am only saying that guilt by association proves nothing in regards to sin in those who's lives are devoted to Christ. Paul instructs us to shun those who call themselves 'brother' that are openly wicked. But Paul isnt using the principle of guilt by association here so that we keep up appearances. Paul is zealous for the purity of the Church and therefore for Christ's glory and honor we are to put away evil from ourselves.

John



wintery -> RE: Thoughts on The Call? (7/26/2008 10:51:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin

Nice to know our last bout over the doctrine of bloodguilt sank in a little... (/end sarcasm) As I said, there is a difference between what Lou Engle says and what you are saying he says.


The exact quotes from Lou Engle and the points I made about them are completely ignored in this post.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
In fact, wintery, the picture you paint is a gross misrepresentation of the entire doctrine.


The link to the actual doctrine in .pdf format on Lou Engle's website is available to compare the exact quotes which I used.



stateofgrace -> RE: Thoughts on The Call? (7/27/2008 2:09:43 AM)

One of the things that my eyes have really been opened to in the context of discussing Todd Bentley is the concepts of mass hypnosis and manipulative techniques that can be applied with a crowd of eager believers. See post 1803 in the Lakeland/Bently thread for some more information on this. I'll likely post some resources on this as time goes on, either in this thread or that one, or on my blog (where real life has kind of taken priority over the last couple of weeks).

Look at who "The Call" focuses on - young adults. Older teens and college age ikds, at a major time of transition in their lives. At a time when their emotions, decision making process, etc. is not at full maturity. Then they go to some big event in a stadium and are hyped up emotionally throughout the event (in ways Billy Graham would have never dreamed of trying). Events are constructed as to get them at a very intense emotional state. Getting "married to Jesus" as just one example. Watch Lou Engle when he does the bobblehead thing when praying, and watch as people start to emulate him in the audience.

I knew Che and Lou many years ago, before they progressed in this direction. It's very sad to see them involved in all this. Both have given their public support to Todd Bentley as well. I don't know their motivation - I don't know if they've been sold all these manipulative techniques as how to really "reach" young people of if they fully understand what they are doing.

Another thing about The Call and IHOP - sometimes words/concepts have meanings in the general body of Christ, but have a different meaning within a specific group. "Church unity" "supporting the local church," etc. means something very specific to IHOP and the apostolic crowd, for example. Young people who flock to IHOP and take shifts manning prayer rooms are called "missionaries."

BTW - if you've never seen Lou in action - one place where you can see him is the "Jesus Camp" documentary, where much of the same type of techniques is applied to the 7 to 12 year old set. I just watched that film with my daughters, one of whom has a friend who has gotten involved with IHOP locally and has been to The Call. My kids and had some very good discussions after viewing the film regarding legitimate moves of the Holy Spirit vs. emotional manipulation.



earthless -> RE: Thoughts on The Call? (7/27/2008 12:41:32 PM)

I feel so sorry for the kids involved in the 'Jesus Camp' documentary. Brain-washed into Latter Rain/False teachings.



colliefan -> RE: Thoughts on The Call? (7/27/2008 2:46:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless
I feel so sorry for the kids involved in the 'Jesus Camp' documentary. Brain-washed into Latter Rain/False teachings.



more shame this crew bring onto the body of Christ



colliefan -> RE: Thoughts on The Call? (7/27/2008 3:43:33 PM)

If this were an event on the order of Stand in the Gap, I would have no problem with ut; but the doctrine of the leaders sends up red flags



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