|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: where are the men? - 8/1/2008 4:28:20 PM
|
|
|
Neeva_Candida
Posts: 119
Joined: 7/26/2008
Status: offline
|
Wow. There has been a lot more discussion on this question that I ever thought there would be.
You know what makes this issue even more interesting to me? Studies done on Southern Baptist Churches suggest that somewhere between 50 to 80 percent of the members are not actually even saved! Of course nobody can know for sure save God himself. However, it is interesting to think that if we indeed have a deficit of male participation and that the participation that we do have is diminished even further through false converts....
Oh my.
~Neeva
|
|
|
|
|
RE: where are the men? - 8/1/2008 5:11:42 PM
|
|
|
kernsfamily
Posts: 1333
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Neeva_Candida
Wow. There has been a lot more discussion on this question that I ever thought there would be.
You know what makes this issue even more interesting to me? Studies done on Southern Baptist Churches suggest that somewhere between 50 to 80 percent of the members are not actually even saved! Of course nobody can know for sure save God himself. However, it is interesting to think that if we indeed have a deficit of male participation and that the participation that we do have is diminished even further through false converts....
Oh my.
~Neeva
I really don't put much "value" in alot of those 'studies' out there. Usually it's a person or an organization just trying to prove their own "opinions" or justify their "agendas".....and, "working the numbers" in their favor.
Iam not sure about your church, but my church has an "interview" process.....where you must state you've been saved & baptized (when? where? give your testimony...)....or, have a "letter" from another church....or, other "proof" that you have indeed trusted Jesus to be your Lord & Savior.
Though, there may be some who can "talk their way" through that, too.....and, basically not tell the truth......who knows?
Don't most SBC churches have membership requirements like this:
How do I become of member of Prestonwood?
Step 1: Walk Forward
At the conclusion of every Worship Service, our Pastor extends a brief time of what we call the “Invitation”—a time to come forward and join Prestonwood. Responding to the Invitation is an essential, simple step in accordance to Scripture, instructing each to make a public profession of faith. If you have small children in our nursery or Children’s Ministry programs, a caregiver or teacher will remain with them until they are picked up.
Should you desire to join the church via different means, you may visit one of our two NextStep Booths located in the Atrium—near the Children’s Ministry Building and on Main Street.
Step 2: Visit with a Decision Counselor
When you walk forward, you’ll be greeted by a Minister and introduced to a Prestonwood member who serves as a Decision Counselor. Typically, there are several other people who make decisions for Christ and church membership, so you will not be alone. Those who are making decisions will be escorted to our Decision Counseling Room which is located just outside the Worship Center. In this very comfortable setting, the Decision Counselor will talk to you individually about your decision (and membership). This usually takes only 5-10 minutes.
Step 3: Be Baptized
If you have never been immersed in baptism as a believer, your Decision Counselor will schedule a convenient date for you to be baptized during the Worship Service of your choice. Jesus asks us to believe in Him, turn away from self-willed living, and be baptized (Matthew 28:18-20). In accordance to His example and instruction (Matthew 3:13-17), baptism is a requirement for membership at Prestonwood.
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: where are the men? - 8/2/2008 9:33:28 PM
|
|
|
Kath
Posts: 17146
Joined: 2/28/2005
Status: online
|
quote:
There are more women that post on these forums than there are men, too.
That's true!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: where are the men? - 8/2/2008 9:58:23 PM
|
|
|
Consecrated2God
Posts: 4976
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
Status: offline
|
Now we just need a Kleenex box. I'll see if I can find one.
_____________________________
<--Plantation house in Louisiana
|
|
|
|
|
RE: where are the men? - 8/3/2008 8:29:42 AM
|
|
|
rwe2156
Posts: 2366
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
quote:
ORIGINAL: Neeva_Candida
Wow. There has been a lot more discussion on this question that I ever thought there would be.
You know what makes this issue even more interesting to me? Studies done on Southern Baptist Churches suggest that somewhere between 50 to 80 percent of the members are not actually even saved! Of course nobody can know for sure save God himself. However, it is interesting to think that if we indeed have a deficit of male participation and that the participation that we do have is diminished even further through false converts....
Oh my.
~Neeva
I really don't put much "value" in alot of those 'studies' out there. Usually it's a person or an organization just trying to prove their own "opinions" or justify their "agendas".....and, "working the numbers" in their favor.
I disagree, FWIW. I believe the statistics are true.
If you agree the number one sign of a regenerate person is a desire for fellowship
and corporate worship, then the 37% unregenerate figure is accurate.
Personally, I believe it is higher if you take into account divorce rate, the miserable
percentage of "saved" teenagers (less than 10%) who exercise their faith in college,
etc.
Its not an agenda - its real and its why so many today are deceived about their faith.
For most, their faith is not a reality because it is not real.
They are drawn to and find assurance in a person (preacher), place (building),
a method (programs) rather than a person (Christ), and a process (discipleship
and growth), and an expectation (spiritual growth and ministry).
Churchianity today is made up largely by "Jesus Clubs" that are run like businesses -
in the flesh.
Why do you think Ted Turner said if he wants spiritual advice he will call the Dahli Lama,
but if he wants a CEO he will hire a mega church preacher.
quote:
I am not sure about your church, but my church has an "interview" process.....
where you must state you've been saved & baptized (when? where? give your testimony...)
....or, have a "letter" from another church....or, other "proof" that you have indeed trusted
Jesus to be your Lord & Savior.
Wish they would all do that.
quote:
Don't most SBC churches have membership requirements like this:
How do I become of member of Prestonwood?
Step 1: Walk Forward
Step 2: Visit with a Decision Counselor
Step 3: Be Baptized
Actually its simply based on a profession of faith, but that profession is meaningless
with no testimony of an ongoing relationship with Christ. Agree?
Sadly most don't even ask for the testimony of the person, and even accept
the person that day without even knowing anything about him or her!
There's no wonder our denomination is largely unregenerate. We place no
value on membership.
Its all the result of bad doctrine.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: where are the men? - 8/3/2008 8:34:57 AM
|
|
|
rwe2156
Posts: 2366
Status: offline
|
Where are the men?
Woman have been the foundation of the church for about 100 years now.
Where did it all start?
Who is to blame?
I don't know.
But as a men's leader, I can tell you that many, many men in church view
spirituality, singing and praying as weakness.
Men will NOT tell you what is on their heart, whereas woman will.
Humility, meekness, "last is first" are simply not in American men's makeup.
It is 'be first", "be a winner", "succeed", "have the most toys", etc. and
NEVER, NEVER admit you might be weak, troubled and in need of help.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: where are the men? - 8/3/2008 3:06:52 PM
|
|
|
Kath
Posts: 17146
Joined: 2/28/2005
Status: online
|
Where are all the men? I wish I knew. Even back when Jesus was in the tomb, it was the women who showed up to care for his body and discovered He wasn't there. Where were the men? According to John 20:3, the men were not even on their way to the tomb, because it said they started for it after Mary Mag. came running to them in alarm.
Maybe it doesn't mean anything to anyone else but it shows me women are the ones who are there.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: where are the men? - 8/3/2008 4:46:23 PM
|
|
|
crankius
Posts: 4468
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
The church I attend has a large number of males who are very active in leadership roles and in general participation. There are probably lots of reasons for this. They have an elder board and a deacon board, they teach a lot of theology, there are lots of men's prayer groups and the men get together every week for lunch/prayer/study. They also are active in missions. The men in leadership actively engage in relationships with the other men, and they actively seek after the study of God's Word together.
Some rambling thoughts regarding the OP: I don't think the problems some are describing with a lack of male leadership/involvement is a new thing. A quick read through the OT shows that time and time again, the reading of the law was neglected to the point that people forgot what the law said or even forgot that the law was there! Then someone would bring the reading of the law back, like Ezra in Nehemiah, and everyone would be immersed in the law again and serving the Lord with passion--loving God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength.
Ponder this: why in the OT was a great king/leader nearly always followed by a terrible king/leader? And those who followed were nearly always sons of the previous leaders. It seems good leaders were not necessarily good fathers.
So, one thing to consider is, "where are the fathers?" Fathers who are actively passionate about loving Christ with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength, are more likely to instill this passion in their children--and should absolutely be actively teaching and persuading their children to love God.
Note, however, that this is not the same thing exactly as instilling a passion for serving in the church. Too often, people equate serving and knowing the church with serving and knowing Christ.
Rather than raising up "church goers", fathers should be raising up "Christ followers." Those who are passionate about Christ will greatly desire to find ways to actively be part of the Body of Christ.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
|
|
|
|
|
RE: where are the men? - 8/3/2008 7:40:24 PM
|
|
|
backrowbaptist
Posts: 387
Joined: 6/7/2008
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Where are the men?
Woman have been the foundation of the church for about 100 years now.
Where did it all start?
Who is to blame?
I don't know.
Right, so what has happened to men in the last 100 years that could have caused this?
quote:
But as a men's leader, I can tell you that many, many men in church view
spirituality, singing and praying as weakness.
But they don't view following a strong leader or having a specific goal to reach or task to accomplish as weakness.
quote:
Men will NOT tell you what is on their heart, whereas woman will.
Humility, meekness, "last is first" are simply not in American men's makeup.
It's not in the make-up of men anywhere else in the world, for the most part. Again, why don't other faiths lack male devotees?
quote:
It is 'be first", "be a winner", "succeed", "have the most toys", etc. and
NEVER, NEVER admit you might be weak, troubled and in need of help.
True, but that's part of the male nature. If God created us and hardwired that in to us, there must be a way to redeem it, no?
We tell a man to fight his nature, but not a woman. Why is that? We've tailored church to fit the female nature. What can we do for males?
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: where are the men? - 8/3/2008 7:48:27 PM
|
|
|
semperfidelis
Posts: 363
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Let me think on that.
Status: offline
|
quote:
Rather than raising up "church goers", fathers should be raising up "Christ followers." Those who are passionate about Christ will greatly desire to find ways to actively be part of the Body of Christ.
My church's young adults ministry is undergoing leadership change (previous one retired this spring) and that's our goal. About 5 -7 of us will be leading it (hopefully). It's going to alienate some and draw others in deeper. Not everyone is a "leader's leader", but everyone has the capability to lead if by the very fact that they are a Christian makes them a missionary for Christ. My goal is to at least bring people to a living and working relationship with Christ where leading and submitting are a natural part of life. True Christian life should be the norm, not the rarity.
God's been talking to myself and a few others on this subject and it's time for us to stand up. We have a lack of leaders in general, it isn't just men. And the women leaders we do have would sometimes be more effective if they had men standing by them and supporting them (that is not a sexist comment, it's one I've seen in actual practice and heard from women leaders as well).
It's time for the Body of Christ to stop viewing Sunday mornings as church, time to stop asking God what He wants us to do, and time to start doing what He has told us to do. The world and our schedules won't fall apart if they do -- if anything our time will become better utilized and focused. Obedience brings blessing -- that's a law God has written over and over in the Bible. This then takes away the biggest excuses both men and women use to say why they don't stand up.
It's time for the Body of Christ to start looking like it.
_____________________________
The man in the arena....
If I rise and succeed, it's because His hand has lifted me.
I may not have 3 greek letters but I have 2 latin words: SEMPER FIDELIS (no, I'm not a marine, but we like the same things)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: where are the men? - 8/3/2008 9:47:12 PM
|
|
|
phosadaud
Posts: 10609
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
We tell a man to fight his nature, but not a woman. Why is that? We've tailored church to fit the female nature. What can we do for males?
What? You're saying it's in my nature to be told I'm supposed to follow a man even if that man doesn't have a clue what he's doing - but just because he's a man. You're saying it's in my nature to step out in faith even when I'm afraid? You're saying it's in my nature to sit in the sanctuary with head-pounding levels of music that so many churches play now? You'er saying it's in my nature to be a leader but "only so much" because I'm a woman? You're saying it's in my nature to confront and oppose that which needs to be opposed?
Sorry, but this woe is me, I'm a man stuff is stupid. We ALL face challenges. We ALL face things that are difficult. We ALL face things that we don't find comfortable. We ALL are required to stretch in our walks.
The fact is, we should look to Scripture and our Savior to see what kind of people, men and women, we are to be. We shouldn't say, this is who I am and the Church should change for me. We should ask "Who does God want me to be and what should I do?". So, who was Jesus? I see a Savior who is strong and doesn't pull punches. I see a Savior who loves and weeps in anguish. I see a Savior who loves the lillies of the field and who tells His disciples to carry a sword.
God doesn't want a chest-pumping neanderthal who is so insecure in his "manhood" that he can't stretch himself and step out in faith and be the person that God wants him to be because maybe someone will think he's not man enough. God wants a man who gets emotional for his God, who loves and is compassionate, who admires God's workmanship in this world, etc, etc.
The fact is, being a Christian is counter to much of our culture: for men AND for women (hate to burst your bubble). To say that somehow the church is supposed to change for men because men can't handle that, is insulting to my brothers in Christ and insulting to men in general.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "I worked as a Corporate Lesion."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: where are the men? - 8/3/2008 10:47:37 PM
|
|
|
backrowbaptist
Posts: 387
Joined: 6/7/2008
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
What? You're saying it's in my nature to be told I'm supposed to follow a man even if that man doesn't have a clue what he's doing - but just because he's a man. You're saying it's in my nature to step out in faith even when I'm afraid? You're saying it's in my nature to sit in the sanctuary with head-pounding levels of music that so many churches play now? You'er saying it's in my nature to be a leader but "only so much" because I'm a woman? You're saying it's in my nature to confront and oppose that which needs to be opposed?
Sorry, but this woe is me, I'm a man stuff is stupid. We ALL face challenges. We ALL face things that are difficult. We ALL face things that we don't find comfortable. We ALL are required to stretch in our walks.
The fact is, we should look to Scripture and our Savior to see what kind of people, men and women, we are to be. We shouldn't say, this is who I am and the Church should change for me. We should ask "Who does God want me to be and what should I do?". So, who was Jesus? I see a Savior who is strong and doesn't pull punches. I see a Savior who loves and weeps in anguish. I see a Savior who loves the lillies of the field and who tells His disciples to carry a sword.
God doesn't want a chest-pumping neanderthal who is so insecure in his "manhood" that he can't stretch himself and step out in faith and be the person that God wants him to be because maybe someone will think he's not man enough. God wants a man who gets emotional for his God, who loves and is compassionate, who admires God's workmanship in this world, etc, etc.
The fact is, being a Christian is counter to much of our culture: for men AND for women (hate to burst your bubble). To say that somehow the church is supposed to change for men because men can't handle that, is insulting to my brothers in Christ and insulting to men in general.
'Man who doesn't have a clue'? 'Chest-thumping neandrathal'? Where do you see any of that from myself or those concerned with this issue? There's no 'woe is me' attitude, either. Why do you react so viscerally (and frankly, immaturely) to someone pointing out the FACT that there is are disproportionally fewer men in churches, and that perhaps God is not pleased with this, and that He might want us to reach out to them in a manner that will connect with them? If you don't think it's a problem, fine, but you seem very hostile and threatened by the whole thing, which is a typical reaction from many women on this issue. It just confirms the problem, IMO.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: where are the men? - 8/3/2008 10:55:55 PM
|
|
|
backrowbaptist
Posts: 387
Joined: 6/7/2008
Status: online
|
FWIW - in our contemporary service this a.m. 83 people, 48 women (58%), 35 men (42%).
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: where are the men? - 8/3/2008 10:58:41 PM
|
|
|
phosadaud
Posts: 10609
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
What? You're saying it's in my nature to be told I'm supposed to follow a man even if that man doesn't have a clue what he's doing - but just because he's a man. You're saying it's in my nature to step out in faith even when I'm afraid? You're saying it's in my nature to sit in the sanctuary with head-pounding levels of music that so many churches play now? You'er saying it's in my nature to be a leader but "only so much" because I'm a woman? You're saying it's in my nature to confront and oppose that which needs to be opposed?
Sorry, but this woe is me, I'm a man stuff is stupid. We ALL face challenges. We ALL face things that are difficult. We ALL face things that we don't find comfortable. We ALL are required to stretch in our walks.
The fact is, we should look to Scripture and our Savior to see what kind of people, men and women, we are to be. We shouldn't say, this is who I am and the Church should change for me. We should ask "Who does God want me to be and what should I do?". So, who was Jesus? I see a Savior who is strong and doesn't pull punches. I see a Savior who loves and weeps in anguish. I see a Savior who loves the lillies of the field and who tells His disciples to carry a sword.
God doesn't want a chest-pumping neanderthal who is so insecure in his "manhood" that he can't stretch himself and step out in faith and be the person that God wants him to be because maybe someone will think he's not man enough. God wants a man who gets emotional for his God, who loves and is compassionate, who admires God's workmanship in this world, etc, etc.
The fact is, being a Christian is counter to much of our culture: for men AND for women (hate to burst your bubble). To say that somehow the church is supposed to change for men because men can't handle that, is insulting to my brothers in Christ and insulting to men in general.
'Man who doesn't have a clue'? 'Chest-thumping neandrathal'? Where do you see any of that from myself or those concerned with this issue? There's no 'woe is me' attitude, either. Why do you react so viscerally (and frankly, immaturely) to someone pointing out the FACT that there is are disproportionally fewer men in churches, and that perhaps God is not pleased with this, and that He might want us to reach out to them in a manner that will connect with them? If you don't think it's a problem, fine, but you seem very hostile and threatened by the whole thing, which is a typical reaction from many women on this issue. It just confirms the problem, IMO.
 My reaction is the same as many ladies AND men around here who find it absurd that there are some men who think flowers & kleenex boxes are what are keeping men out of church.
Of course, we could get deeper and discuss some of the stuff that has been said in the men's thread on this subject which seems to equate feminity with heresy (not sure where that definition came about but I never thought of feminity as bad and something to be corrected and masculinity as good and something to strive for but sadly it just goes to show that women are still de-valued by many in our society) but we'll just stick with what's been said in this thread.
Oh, and my reaction was not immature or hostile. Like I've posted elsewhere, I'm a tell it like I see it type of person. I'm not afraid to share my opinion and argue my case...
Which of course is interesting that you didn't address my points but rather complained about me being "threatened and responding like a typical woman".
Wow. Guess I hit a nerve.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "I worked as a Corporate Lesion."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: where are the men? - 8/4/2008 3:29:44 AM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1778
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
FWIW - in our contemporary service this a.m. 83 people, 48 women (58%), 35 men (42%).
Could that possibly be because the service was "contemporary"? Anyway, since women consider themselves the equals of men in North American society, they should take equal blame for whatever deficiences are perceived in today's churches (including the absence of men).
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: where are the men? - 8/4/2008 10:19:48 AM
|
|
|
Consecrated2God
Posts: 4976
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
Status: offline
|
quote:
What? You're saying it's in my nature to be told I'm supposed to follow a man even if that man doesn't have a clue what he's doing - but just because he's a man. You're saying it's in my nature to step out in faith even when I'm afraid? You're saying it's in my nature to sit in the sanctuary with head-pounding levels of music that so many churches play now? You'er saying it's in my nature to be a leader but "only so much" because I'm a woman? You're saying it's in my nature to confront and oppose that which needs to be opposed?
Sorry, but this woe is me, I'm a man stuff is stupid. We ALL face challenges. We ALL face things that are difficult. We ALL face things that we don't find comfortable. We ALL are required to stretch in our walks.
I agree. I've heard so many men talking about how church just fits women's needs to well. The music is in their key, it's all about relationships and women are better at those, it's all catered to women and women love church the way it is. The only problem with that theory is that I've heard plenty of women complain that church isn't meeting their needs, either. Maybe there are things that we should improve in our churches, but the idea that women just all love church the way it is and men don't is silly. Women might be more likely to settle for what they've got, though. I think we're more likely to continue going to church, even if it doesn't always meet our needs. We can overlook those things that maybe aren't perfect and make the best of it, and the men just stop attending. I think that you'll find that about women in other areas of their lives, too. Take marriage, for example. How many women stay married to men for years and years even though he's a loser, and keep taking him back whenever he comes back to her? If a woman acted like that, the man would cut her loose a lot faster. I think women just are willing to sacrifice more, but they are tired of taking the blame for things.
_____________________________
<--Plantation house in Louisiana
|
|
|
|
|
RE: where are the men? - 8/4/2008 10:37:09 AM
|
|
|
bluestone
Posts: 2934
Joined: 2/25/2008
From: United States of America
Status: offline
|
good post, consercrated.
_____________________________
I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: where are the men? - 8/4/2008 12:03:47 PM
|
|
|
rwe2156
Posts: 2366
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
They have an elder board and a deacon board, they teach a lot of theology, there are lots of men's prayer groups and the men get together every week for lunch/prayer/study. They also are active in missions. The men in leadership actively engage in relationships with the other men, and they actively seek after the study of God's Word together.
I want to join your church!
You mentioned theology.
Amen. Its all about doctrine, isn't it?
quote:
So, one thing to consider is, "where are the fathers?"
Fathers who are actively passionate about loving Christ with
all their heart, soul, mind, and strength, are more likely to
instill this passion in their children--and should absolutely be
actively teaching and persuading their children to love God.
Yes, but infortunately, even those professing Christ and
regularly attending church leave the discipleship responsiblitliy
to the youth pastor and SS teachers.
Rather than raising up "church goers", fathers should be raising up
"Christ followers." Those who are passionate about Christ will greatly desire to find ways to actively be part of the Body of Christ.
Amen, Cranky. You are speaking my language.
My sons are discipled and I try to be ever aware of my
spiritual responsiblity to them.
As a result they are always eager to be in service for their church.
My 3 boys actually look forward to church!
One thing too - many kids hear nothing but negatives about church
from their parents. The need to spend less time roasting the pastor
for lunch and more time modelling Christian behavior.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
