How careful should churches be to avoid lawsuits? (Full Version)

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bluestone -> How careful should churches be to avoid lawsuits? (7/23/2008 10:43:36 AM)

Google "church and lawsuits" and you will find more than you can read. Google your own denomination and lawsuits, and you may be shocked.

Seems at times churches need to shut activities to non members to avoid legal problems. Yet, we would not reach out to the unsaved if we do that.

Examples:
Man walks into church campground while youth camp is going on. A teen girl was allowed to leave a service and go back to her cabin alone, as she had a headache. The man raped her. Lawsuit from parents was several million dollars.

Child has broken an arm at vacation Bible school, fell off playground equipment owned by church. His unchurched family sues.

Man confesses sinful past to pastor. Pastor tells his wife, wife repeats it, man sues pastor, local church, and denomination.

What can churches do to avoid lawsuits? Is the church naive when it comes to legal liabilities?



WesP -> RE: How careful should churches be to avoid lawsuits? (7/23/2008 10:47:37 AM)

I would not say that it is ignorance across the board. While that is a part of it, I believe that it is more along the lines of accepting certain evils in order to perform in the manner in which we are instructed. All we can do is our best and rely on the Lord to guide and protect us as we share His word.



Kerrlaw -> RE: How careful should churches be to avoid lawsuits? (7/23/2008 10:51:14 AM)

I am going to give this some thought and reply later.

The latest lawsuit that just became public in my area is a man is suing a church where he became "slain in the spirit" and fell to the floor. The "catchers" failed to properly break his fall.



bluestone -> RE: How careful should churches be to avoid lawsuits? (7/23/2008 10:53:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kerrlaw1

I am going to give this some thought and reply later.

The latest lawsuit that just became public in my area is a man is suing a church where he became "slain in the spirit" and fell to the floor. The "catchers" failed to properly break his fall.


We had a similar situation here about 20 years ago. Guy fell out, no catchers, and cracked his head on a piano. He sued for medical bills.



Kerrlaw -> RE: How careful should churches be to avoid lawsuits? (7/23/2008 11:13:21 AM)

Apparently the guy here was actually on the board of the church, and knew that they had trained the catchers, and supposedly he had relied on the training.



bluestone -> RE: How careful should churches be to avoid lawsuits? (7/23/2008 11:18:32 AM)

Another incident in my state:

Church vans blows a tire, kids injured but no one killed. Lawsuits followed, even though parents had signed permission slips that were notarized giving permission, and not holding the church responsible for accident, injury, or death.



cow451 -> RE: How careful should churches be to avoid lawsuits? (7/23/2008 1:00:54 PM)

Several points:

A church is a legal entity/business. Any business has "exposure". Each incident has to be addressed on its own merit, or lack of.

When a church official behaves recklessly or stupidly, the church has to bear responsibility.

One cannot waive negligence. Waivers are worthless if the church fails to exercise reasonable care. If the church van wrecks and it is found the driver was not properly licensed, waiver invalid. If the van was not properly maintained, waiver invalid.

Churches and Christians don't get immunity. We ain't that special.



bluestone -> RE: How careful should churches be to avoid lawsuits? (7/23/2008 1:27:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cow451

Several points:

A church is a legal entity/business. Any business has "exposure". Each incident has to be addressed on its own merit, or lack of.

When a church official behaves recklessly or stupidly, the church has to bear responsibility.

One cannot waive negligence. Waivers are worthless if the church fails to exercise reasonable care. If the church van wrecks and it is found the driver was not properly licensed, waiver invalid. If the van was not properly maintained, waiver invalid.

Churches and Christians don't get immunity. We ain't that special.



I agree. We are liable, and we have a huge target on our backs, IMO.

Do we need to shut down areas of ministry, or not allow non-members, who are more likely to sue to be involved in certain church related activities such as sports?

Or do we pray and hope for the best?



lexie -> RE: How careful should churches be to avoid lawsuits? (7/23/2008 5:39:13 PM)

I believe there are times where people behave recklessly and people are hurt and then yes the church should be responsible.

But we also have to realize that everyone who walks through the doors has shaken the world off their backs. They may still have a worldy mindset, and their first reaction would be to sue to get compensation, no matter what. We need to be prepared, but at the same time we can't always be prepared.

If the church van is in an accident and it was the drivers fault because he was reckless, then the church should bear responsibility. If the driver was going the speed limit, following all of the rules of the road, and the tire blows, that's not the fault of the driver or the church. Maybe the people should sue God then, I don't know. I think it would be a great example of the heart of the person and their understanding of the love and mercy of Jesus Christ if they were to sue or not sue in that situation. Also of the church if they were to offer help to those injured or turn their backs on them.



kernsfamily -> RE: How careful should churches be to avoid lawsuits? (7/23/2008 5:50:38 PM)

quote:

What can churches do to avoid lawsuits? Is the church naive when it comes to legal liabilities?


no one can AVOID lawsuits....anyone can sue anyone for anything....but, whether or not that person wins (or if the case even makes it to trial)...that's another thing entirely....

BUT, of course, a church should do everything as "legally" proper as possible, and work with attorneys (perhaps attorneys who are also church members) to assist and make sure that any "prevention" that can be done, is done....and, that their church's "exposure" to the possibility of successfully getting sued is minimized....(background checks on ANY and ALL adults working with children/youth, proper certification and maintainance on playground equipment, proper permission slips for activities and trips (which typically release the church from most or all liability from anything that might occur), proper training and certification for ANY bus drivers, and, many, many other issues....

over and above that, there is liability insurance, which I would think any responsible church would have.....



mvic -> RE: How careful should churches be to avoid lawsuits? (7/23/2008 5:56:00 PM)

In the UK Health and Safety legislation applies to churches as it does to any other business.

In my experience, a number of churches are not fully aware of their Health and Safety responsibilities - although I have seen some improvements in the last few years.

A particular church I know has obtained the voluntary services of one of the parishioners as he is a Health & Safety consultant by profession. But this is very much an exception. Other churches should follow this example.



LCannon -> RE: How careful should churches be to avoid lawsuits? (7/23/2008 5:59:40 PM)

Simple prudence. Hope(pray)for the best, prepare for the worst.



rcjames -> RE: How careful should churches be to avoid lawsuits? (7/23/2008 7:12:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LCannon

Simple prudence. Hope(pray)for the best, prepare for the worst.


Absoolutely.

Be sure the Church is a stand alone corporation (to financially protect the members), carry plenty (excessive even) of liability insurance, throughly vet all employees, leaders, teachers, etc., hire a certified firm to give periodic safety inspections, and above all pray.

Thanks
RC



bluestone -> RE: How careful should churches be to avoid lawsuits? (7/24/2008 8:16:08 AM)

Good advice, RC.

I don't think we can overstress the importance of keeping church vehicles maintained properly.



doinkdom -> RE: How careful should churches be to avoid lawsuits? (7/24/2008 12:52:15 PM)

Regarding personal injuries, many time the only way to get an insurance company to pay for expenses is to have the "victim" go through the motions of suing the other party, thereby exhausting all resources for payment BEFORE the insurance company will do what they're supposed to do.

It's ridiculous and a lot of times, just a formality between insurance companies.

I do agree that churches should have things in proper order to protect their people and so forth.

One of the most concerning areas is background checks on people working with children to avoid having parents come after the church if a volunteer is a registered sex offender.

eta to clarify



kernsfamily -> RE: How careful should churches be to avoid lawsuits? (7/24/2008 2:59:36 PM)

quote:

One of the most concerning areas is background checks on people working with children to avoid having parents come after the church if a volunteer is a registered sex offender.


true....though, I would hope that your church would have those background checks done on ALL volunteers working with the children, but NOT out of "legal necessity" to avoid any possible future litigation, but out of the sincere concern to protect the children.



doinkdom -> RE: How careful should churches be to avoid lawsuits? (7/24/2008 3:05:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
quote:

One of the most concerning areas is background checks on people working with children to avoid having parents come after the church if a volunteer is a registered sex offender.


true....though, I would hope that your church would have those background checks done on ALL volunteers working with the children, but NOT out of "legal necessity" to avoid any possible future litigation, but out of the sincere concern to protect the children.

I reckon they do. They did when we were there.



bluestone -> RE: How careful should churches be to avoid lawsuits? (7/24/2008 3:07:35 PM)

We had part of the roof fall in one sunday morning during services.. The roof was rotting, and we had constrant rain for a couple of weeks. Buckets were set out aroung the sanctuary. The board put off fixing it until they could get an estimate they could afford, then the rain came and the roofers could not work. No one was seriously injured, and thankfully no one sued. The possibility was there, however. The repairs should have taken place several months earlier when the problem was discovered. During the rain storms services should have been moved to another area.

One lady said it was because her son showed up.[8D]



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