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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 5:28:39 PM
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DougHorton
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A lot of people are making a lot of assumptions.
If you are trying to pick a fight, you've got the wrong guy.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 5:34:33 PM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
Ok.. well if the church is meant for only worship.... That would limit many more things than just the "jam sessions"....
So you would be with the other camp, that church should look like a bar?
Should we add open smoking during service too, so we can reach the tobacco users that might be lost as well?
ETA quote, didn't post the first time.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 5:48:57 PM
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deliveredarling
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The way I see it, Believer's and nonbelievers have to live on this earth together, which means there has to be a level of respect.
We shouldn't be going into bars and evangelizing (because that's there turf).
They shouldn't be coming to our churches and debating God.
For us to bring the world into the church will eventually break the church down, It will look o much like the world, we won't be able to tell the difference. Case in point: Those really good people who aren't believers. They act so good and do such good thing s for others, and we don't know the difference until we ask them.
A secular jam session is leading towards that direction, may seem like a good idea now, but what other compromises will occur on down the road?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 5:49:42 PM
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Restored_Heart
Posts: 901
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Ok.. well if the church is meant for only worship.... That would limit many more things than just the "jam sessions"....
So you would be with the other camp, that church should look like a bar?
Should we add open smoking during service too, so we can reach the tobacco users that might be lost as well?
ETA quote, didn't post the first time.
No... neither group should be labeled in the extreme as you are doing...
_____________________________
"Ya mom, I got to see "Some Italian guy" in concert..."
Some Italian guy? (Carman) :p
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 5:50:56 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1935
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quote:
No... neither group should be labeled in the extreme as you are doing...
We are talking about a bar atmosphere? Would the world be a better term?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 5:53:23 PM
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Restored_Heart
Posts: 901
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
The way I see it, Believer's and nonbelievers have to live on this earth together, which means there has to be a level of respect.
We shouldn't be going into bars and evangelizing (because that's there turf).
They shouldn't be coming to our churches and debating God.
For us to bring the world into the church will eventually break the church down, It will look o much like the world, we won't be able to tell the difference. Case in point: Those really good people who aren't believers. They act so good and do such good thing s for others, and we don't know the difference until we ask them.
A secular jam session is leading towards that direction, may seem like a good idea now, but what other compromises will occur on down the road?
I view it differently...
I have no problem with living a life spoken or unspoken that preaches the gospel at all times in all locations...
However, I also have no problems with unbelievers that come to church that challenge and question my beliefs and why I believe them.... It makes me a stonger Christian that way...
_____________________________
"Ya mom, I got to see "Some Italian guy" in concert..."
Some Italian guy? (Carman) :p
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 5:53:29 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5388
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Jam session
Where two or more are gathered in the name of making music...
John
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 5:55:52 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ddave12000
I agree with this, but is that the same mandate for us?
I don't believe so because unlike Jesus we do not know other people's hearts.... Which brings to the point that while it's easy to say we should emulate Jesus, there are some boundaries there...
quote:
Are you saying that if people don't immediately repent we should give up on them?
Nope...
quote:
I'm not at a place where I can do that. Following this logic, I feel as though I should not have anything to do with my brother.
As I have stated is your intentions with your brother is to present the gospel both in word and deed I can't see where having a relationship can ever be an issue...
Btw... Good luck and my prayers are with you and your brother...
John
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 5:56:26 PM
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DreadPirateRandy
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Interestingly enough, I found something regarding worship earlier and it reminded me of this thread.
quote:
NewSpring Church Features Beyonce’s “Crazy in Love”
"Today’s false churches can be spotted very easily. Rather than beginning worship with music that exalts Jesus Christ, they will have “openers” that point to anything but. These “openers” lay the foundation for everything else that goes on in the service. So, for example, when a real Christian church begins a worship service and seeks to draw attention to the Savior, they wouldn’t choose something like Hell’s Bells by AC/DC like NewSpring church did recently. That would be for false churches that are in open disobedience to Christ. Likewise, a real Christian church would not begin a “worship” service with “Crazy in Love” by Beyonce, whose original video of this song cannot be linked to on this site because it is pornography. I would highly discourage anyone from going to see what I mean on YouTube due to the sexual nature of the video. This is how Perry Noble’s false church opens its worship. A false church will draw attention to the world and to man(woman). A real church points to the living Christ."
- Slice of Laodicea
_____________________________
The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 5:58:07 PM
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DougHorton
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From: Georgia
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This is what I want to see -- Man Church
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Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 6:02:49 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1935
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Wow.
I would like to ask someone to please post a scripture reference that points Jesus ever going after sinner's for their salvation. I could be wrong here and if so I will gladly accept that. But I don't ever recall a story of Him reverting to the level of chasing sinners.
We should live so they are drawn to us, as He did. That means our churches too.
Haven't any of you ever left a church because ungodly things occurred in it? Ever had a problem with a church because of the things that took place in it?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 6:31:16 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Restored_Heart
However, I also have no problems with unbelievers that come to church that challenge and question my beliefs and why I believe them.... It makes me a stonger Christian that way...
So does that mean that routine visits by the local cult members is better than a guest speaker speaking the truth of God's word?
John
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 7/25/2008 8:57:52 PM >
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 6:35:12 PM
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DougHorton
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From: Georgia
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Actually, Jesus and the apostles only ever commanded people to repent. They explained who God was, what He required, what He had done, and finally instructed listeners to repent.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 6:52:11 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11460
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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quote:
I would like to ask someone to please post a scripture reference that points Jesus ever going after sinner's for their salvation.
Luke 19:10
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."
Seeking implies going after them.
How about the parable of the lost sheep? God doesn't wait for the sheep to come back and ask to be brought into the fold.
_____________________________
Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 8:03:24 PM
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utilityfielder
Posts: 12503
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Home of the Champions
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
quote:
1. a meeting of a group of musicians, esp. jazz musicians, to play for their own enjoyment.
church
1. a building for public Christian worship.
Hmmm...
Are you saying that a church building should not be used for:
1 Feeding the homeless
2. a meeting of the quilting society
3. a business meeting of the church to discuss replacing the carpet.
That is an extremely narrow definition.
_____________________________
Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement. Ronald Reagan
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 8:26:13 PM
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Restored_Heart
Posts: 901
Joined: 7/23/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
However, I also have no problems with unbelievers that come to church that challenge and question my beliefs and why I believe them.... It makes me a stonger Christian that way...
So does that mean that routine visits by the local cult members is better than a guest speaker speaking the truth of God's word?
John
Umm... I'm thinking the quote is from me....
But no... But being able to talk about what I believe, no matter the venue is of benefit....
Where did you get that idea that what you typed is remotely what I meant anyway?
_____________________________
"Ya mom, I got to see "Some Italian guy" in concert..."
Some Italian guy? (Carman) :p
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 8:31:54 PM
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Restored_Heart
Posts: 901
Joined: 7/23/2005
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Luke 15
The Parable of the Lost Sheep
1Now the tax collectors and "sinners" were all gathering around to hear him. 2But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them."
3Then Jesus told them this parable: 4"Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.' 7I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
The Parable of the Lost Coin
8"Or suppose a woman has ten silver coins and loses one. Does she not light a lamp, sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? 9And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost coin.' 10In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
_____________________________
"Ya mom, I got to see "Some Italian guy" in concert..."
Some Italian guy? (Carman) :p
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 8:33:59 PM
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Restored_Heart
Posts: 901
Joined: 7/23/2005
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Matthew 9
The Calling of Matthew
9As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.
10While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. 11When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"
12On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
ETA:
Also from Mt 9:
The Workers Are Few
35Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness. 36When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd. 37Then he said to his disciples, "The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. 38Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field."
_____________________________
"Ya mom, I got to see "Some Italian guy" in concert..."
Some Italian guy? (Carman) :p
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 8:36:03 PM
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ddave12000
Posts: 77
Joined: 3/7/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: ddave12000
I agree with this, but is that the same mandate for us?
I don't believe so because unlike Jesus we do not know other people's hearts.... Which brings to the point that while it's easy to say we should emulate Jesus, there are some boundaries there...
Agreed.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: ddave12000
Are you saying that if people don't immediately repent we should give up on them?
Nope...
cool.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: ddave12000
I'm not at a place where I can do that. Following this logic, I feel as though I should not have anything to do with my brother.
As I have stated is your intentions with your brother is to present the gospel both in word and deed I can't see where having a relationship can ever be an issue...
Btw... Good luck and my prayers are with you and your brother...
John
Thanks. I think for this part of this discussion, we are more or less in agreement.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 8:37:46 PM
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Restored_Heart
Posts: 901
Joined: 7/23/2005
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Mark 16
5 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
_____________________________
"Ya mom, I got to see "Some Italian guy" in concert..."
Some Italian guy? (Carman) :p
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 8:38:04 PM
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ddave12000
Posts: 77
Joined: 3/7/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Wow.
I would like to ask someone to please post a scripture reference that points Jesus ever going after sinner's for their salvation. I could be wrong here and if so I will gladly accept that. But I don't ever recall a story of Him reverting to the level of chasing sinners.
We should live so they are drawn to us, as He did. That means our churches too.
Haven't any of you ever left a church because ungodly things occurred in it? Ever had a problem with a church because of the things that took place in it?
Very possibly the best scripture is when Jesus WENT to Samaria and visited the woman at the well. The samarians were considered subhuman to the Jews at that time, yet Jesus went to them.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 8:56:57 PM
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Restored_Heart
Posts: 901
Joined: 7/23/2005
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Yep, from John 4
John 4
Jesus Talks With a Samaritan Woman
1The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, 2although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples. 3When the Lord learned of this, he left Judea and went back once more to Galilee.
4Now he had to go through Samaria. 5So he came to a town in Samaria called Sychar, near the plot of ground Jacob had given to his son Joseph. 6Jacob's well was there, and Jesus, tired as he was from the journey, sat down by the well. It was about the sixth hour.
7When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, "Will you give me a drink?" 8(His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.)
9The Samaritan woman said to him, "You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?" (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.)
10Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."
11"Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?"
13Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."
15The woman said to him, "Sir, give me this water so that I won't get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water."
16He told her, "Go, call your husband and come back."
17"I have no husband," she replied.
Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. 18The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."
19"Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. 20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."
21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."
26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."
The Disciples Rejoin Jesus
27Just then his disciples returned and were surprised to find him talking with a woman. But no one asked, "What do you want?" or "Why are you talking with her?"
28Then, leaving her water jar, the woman went back to the town and said to the people, 29"Come, see a man who told me everything I ever did. Could this be the Christ?" 30They came out of the town and made their way toward him.
31Meanwhile his disciples urged him, "Rabbi, eat something."
32But he said to them, "I have food to eat that you know nothing about."
33Then his disciples said to each other, "Could someone have brought him food?"
34"My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. 35Do you not say, 'Four months more and then the harvest'? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. 36Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now he harvests the crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together. 37Thus the saying 'One sows and another reaps' is true. 38I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor."
Many Samaritans Believe
39Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman's testimony, "He told me everything I ever did." 40So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41And because of his words many more became believers.
42They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world."
_____________________________
"Ya mom, I got to see "Some Italian guy" in concert..."
Some Italian guy? (Carman) :p
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 8:59:28 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5388
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
quote:
I would like to ask someone to please post a scripture reference that points Jesus ever going after sinner's for their salvation.
Luke 19:10
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."
Seeking implies going after them.
How about the parable of the lost sheep? God doesn't wait for the sheep to come back and ask to be brought into the fold.
A lost sheep is still a believer...
John
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 9:00:33 PM
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armydude
Posts: 16851
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
quote:
1. a meeting of a group of musicians, esp. jazz musicians, to play for their own enjoyment.
church
1. a building for public Christian worship.
Hmmm...
And I tell ya, it's a terrible thing to do anything for your own enjoyment in a church.
Yeah, I grew up with that lie too...
_____________________________
You can choose to be pitiful. Or you can choose to be powerful. But you cannot choose to be both.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 9:03:05 PM
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Restored_Heart
Posts: 901
Joined: 7/23/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
quote:
I would like to ask someone to please post a scripture reference that points Jesus ever going after sinner's for their salvation.
Luke 19:10
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."
Seeking implies going after them.
How about the parable of the lost sheep? God doesn't wait for the sheep to come back and ask to be brought into the fold.
A lost sheep is still a believer...
John
How did they get that way?
God opens their heart, yes.... but past that.
Jesus sent alot of people into all the world to bring them in...
_____________________________
"Ya mom, I got to see "Some Italian guy" in concert..."
Some Italian guy? (Carman) :p
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