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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 9:20:08 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
Does that mean that I'm sinning when I go to eat dinner at my friend's house? She isn't saved and lives with her boyfriend.
If you do so in a manner that gives direct or silent consent that could be seen as supporting their rebellion against God... If you have no intentions of sharing the Gospel what is the purpose of being around them?
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Does that mean that Jesus sinned when he hung out with Mary Magdeline and when he talked with the Samaritan lady at the well? I sure hope not because that would mean that he actually was sinful during his life, thereby making his sacrifice for us false and the effects of it null and void.
Jesus wasn't hanging out... And of course He couldn't help but be around sinners...
John
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 9:29:15 PM
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ddave12000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Hangin out or reaching out?
Sometimes hanging out is reaching out. All unbelievers aren't constantly searching out what evil and debauchery they can engage in.
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
1 Corinthians 5 is pretty clear regarding the fact it's speaking to the jurisdiction of the church...
Are you saying that 1 Corinthians 5 implies it's ok to hang out with unsaved fornicators?
I don't think the two are intrinsically linked. I think it's speaking about believers and behaviors within the church body. By not allowing those behaviors by the body, doesn't necessarily preclude one from reaching out (even sometimes hanging out) from unbelievers. My brother is unsaved and lives with his girlfriend. I care about him greatly and I know from knowing him that if I didn't invest sometime into him he would shy away from us spending time together. Especially if all I did was "preach" at him.
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
1 Corinthians 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye aneeds go out of the world.
I believe the above is regarding dealing with the folks in daily lives, going to work, the store, whatever and the fact we cannot do so without being in proximity to them… I don't see where is says we should seek their friendship...
see above. Should I not have a relationship with my brother?
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Without a doubt Christ was surrounded by sinners daily... How could He not be since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...
John
Psalms 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Why did Christ eat with prostitutes and tax collectors, the known sinners of the day?
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 9:30:25 PM
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ddave12000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Jesus wasn't hanging out... And of course He couldn't help but be around sinners...
John
so, you were there for every encounter? You know this to be fact? 
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 9:34:40 PM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
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Someone more knowledgeable than me can correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this verse talking about professed believers who do these things? Isn't that why it says "any man that is called a brother"?
Yes it does. I was referring to the music leader's character.
I thought you were using this verse as justification for not hanging out with unbelievers who do these things? Maybe I completely misunderstood your post.
Here's the beginning (I think)
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Fruits are exhibited by treating others with love, kindness, goodness and gentleness, as well as having an attitude of joy, peace, faithfulness, and self-control. That's what I am told to look for to find out who is true and who is false. I've met a lot of Christians who make a habit of condemning others who do not treat people with gentleness and kindness. This is the kind of thing I believe I'm told by God to watch out for.
While this is very true my friend, you are also told this:
1Cr 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Cr 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Cr 5:13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 9:36:02 PM
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ddave12000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Here's the beginning (I think)
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quote:
Fruits are exhibited by treating others with love, kindness, goodness and gentleness, as well as having an attitude of joy, peace, faithfulness, and self-control. That's what I am told to look for to find out who is true and who is false. I've met a lot of Christians who make a habit of condemning others who do not treat people with gentleness and kindness. This is the kind of thing I believe I'm told by God to watch out for.
While this is very true my friend, you are also told this:
1Cr 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Cr 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Cr 5:13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Sorry, I misunderstood the post.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 9:50:23 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ddave12000
Sometimes hanging out is reaching out. All unbelievers aren't constantly searching out what evil and debauchery they can engage in.
As I stated I believe it a matter of intentions... As for the condition of unbelievers, the nicest one is an enmity to God.
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I don't think the two are intrinsically linked. I think it's speaking about believers and behaviors within the church body. By not allowing those behaviors by the body, doesn't necessarily preclude one from reaching out (even sometimes hanging out) from unbelievers.
It speaks to removing the person from the church... To not having fellowship with those who will not repent in hopes they will get a sense of their error from being apart from the visiable church and humbly repent and come back... I don't see how anyone can take from that it's ok to hang out with anyone that you know has a sin issue...
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My brother is unsaved and lives with his girlfriend. I care about him greatly and I know from knowing him that if I didn't invest sometime into him he would shy away from us spending time together. Especially if all I did was "preach" at him.see above. Should I not have a relationship with my brother?
Being prudent and tactful go with the territory... As stated, your intentions matter... I assume you desire your brother to come to Christ...
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Why did Christ eat with prostitutes and tax collectors, the known sinners of the day?
Everyone He ate with was a sinner... No more or less than the above... Or are you saying the sins of the above are greater than those of others Christ ate with?
John
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 10:29:30 PM
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shemaromans
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quote:
Does that mean that I'm sinning when I go to eat dinner at my friend's house? She isn't saved and lives with her boyfriend.
quote:
If you do so in a manner that gives direct or silent consent that could be seen as supporting their rebellion against God... If you have no intentions of sharing the Gospel what is the purpose of being around them?
They know what I believe, and I talk about Jesus here and there. And on the times when I don't share the Gospel directly, I don't think it's wrong to spend time with them. They can still see Jesus at work in my life. Sometimes the best, most effective witnessing is through our actions, not our words.
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Does that mean that Jesus sinned when he hung out with Mary Magdeline and when he talked with the Samaritan lady at the well? I sure hope not because that would mean that he actually was sinful during his life, thereby making his sacrifice for us false and the effects of it null and void.
quote:
Jesus wasn't hanging out... And of course He couldn't help but be around sinners...
John
Interesting. I'll be reading about this to see if I agree.
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 10:56:48 PM
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ddave12000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
As I stated I believe it a matter of intentions... As for the condition of unbelievers, the nicest one is an enmity to God.
I don't recall saying otherwise. The way some talk on here, we might be led to believe that all unbelievers are actively seeking to do evil all the time. I'm not sure that's true. While that may be the ultimate end result, as you have stated intentions matter. Ultimately they don't as good intentions won't save anyone, but in the here and now they make a difference in the way I see things and view people. I know a lot of people who try to live good lives and do good things. They don't know Christ. They don't know about Him. I don't actively avoid these people because they aren't believers. They don't know to believe. I want to get to know them and them to know me and hopefully as a result God may work through that relationship to bring them to Himself.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
It speaks to removing the person from the church... To not having fellowship with those who will not repent in hopes they will get a sense of their error from being apart from the visiable church and humbly repent and come back... I don't see how anyone can take from that it's ok to hang out with anyone that you know has a sin issue...
I feel like we're starting up the merry go round... I'm not sure how to have relationships with folks without any real interaction with them. Without a relationship it doesn't seem likely to me that they would be interested in what I'm about...or see what I'm about by witnessing my actions. I have to tell you, most unbelievers that I've met and talked to don't have a lot of respect for Christ because of Christians who act holier than thou. I don't know how show love to people without getting to know them.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Being prudent and tactful go with the territory... As stated, your intentions matter... I assume you desire your brother to come to Christ...
I agree.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Everyone He ate with was a sinner... No more or less than the above... Or are you saying the sins of the above are greater than those of others Christ ate with?
Not at all, where are you getting that? My point is that Christ didn't limit his actions to those who already followed him.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 1:52:05 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
They know what I believe, and I talk about Jesus here and there. And on the times when I don't share the Gospel directly, I don't think it's wrong to spend time with them. They can still see Jesus at work in my life. Sometimes the best, most effective witnessing is through our actions, not our words.
Wonderful...
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Interesting. I'll be reading about this to see if I agree.
Ok...
John
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 2:11:42 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ddave12000
I don't recall saying otherwise. The way some talk on here, we might be led to believe that all unbelievers are actively seeking to do evil all the time. I'm not sure that's true. While that may be the ultimate end result, as you have stated intentions matter.
The intentions I spoke would be that of a Christian's interaction with unbelievers...
quote:
Ultimately they don't as good intentions won't save anyone, but in the here and now they make a difference in the way I see things and view people. I know a lot of people who try to live good lives and do good things. They don't know Christ. They don't know about Him. I don't actively avoid these people because they aren't believers. They don't know to believe. I want to get to know them and them to know me and hopefully as a result God may work through that relationship to bring them to Himself.
I feel like we're starting up the merry go round... I'm not sure how to have relationships with folks without any real interaction with them. Without a relationship it doesn't seem likely to me that they would be interested in what I'm about...or see what I'm about by witnessing my actions. I have to tell you, most unbelievers that I've met and talked to don't have a lot of respect for Christ because of Christians who act holier than thou. I don't know how show love to people without getting to know them.
I believe that is where one's intentions matter... I didn't say don't have a relationships, but I believe if there is not intention to witness there is an issue...
Unbelievers are not going to like God's people regardless of their actions, Christ made that very clear... Not that there isn't holier than thou types... Though you might consider that those who deny God are acting in an extreme manner of holier than thou by denying their maker...
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Not at all, where are you getting that?
Just looking for clarification...
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My point is that Christ didn't limit his actions to those who already followed him.
Did Christ befriend unrepentant sinners? In John 6 when those who didn't like what He had to say up and left He didn't run after them... He was cleaning house... He knew they would leave when they didn't like His words... And we know from Isaiah it, His word never returns void and accomplished that which He pleases...
John
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 7:16:32 AM
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ddave12000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: ddave12000
My point is that Christ didn't limit his actions to those who already followed him.
Did Christ befriend unrepentant sinners? In John 6 when those who didn't like what He had to say up and left He didn't run after them... He was cleaning house... He knew they would leave when they didn't like His words... And we know from Isaiah it, His word never returns void and accomplished that which He pleases...
John
I agree with this, but is that the same mandate for us? Are you saying that if people don't immediately repent we should give up on them? I'm not at a place where I can do that. Following this logic, I feel as though I should not have anything to do with my brother.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 8:04:15 AM
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deliveredarling
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This topic probably should be another thread.
ETA: I removed my question from here and posted it in a new thread in Faithwalk.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 11:52:03 AM
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DougHorton
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I think a better strategy would be to take the church to a bar.
If this guy and his friends are good musicians, he shouldn't be showing off in church, but in a bar. If he can't get a job in a bar, what makes him think anybody would come to a church?
The church is not a place for "jamming" which is just another word for showing off. I have nothing against any style of music that praises God, but it should be practiced first and only the perfected version presented for worship.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 12:03:59 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 10530
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From: Crimson Tide Country
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
I think a better strategy would be to take the church to a bar.
If this guy and his friends are good musicians, he shouldn't be showing off in church, but in a bar. If he can't get a job in a bar, what makes him think anybody would come to a church?
The church is not a place for "jamming" which is just another word for showing off. I have nothing against any style of music that praises God, but it should be practiced first and only the perfected version presented for worship.
This statement is totally incorrect. A jam session is an inpromptu gathering of musicians to play improvisations together. THese musicians may or may not perform together at any other time. It has nothing to do with showing off. I have participated in numerous jam session over the years. Some of them with some quite famous people. Not once did I see anyone showing off or acting in any negative way.
So we should kick them out of the church building and send them to a bar where the atmosphere is not nearly as clean or controlable as it would be at the church building. I think not.
_____________________________
Don't take life here to seriously. No one gets out alive.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 12:08:53 PM
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DougHorton
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quote:
A jam session is an inpromptu gathering of musicians to play improvisations together
As I said, showing off.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 12:10:42 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 10530
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From: Crimson Tide Country
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
quote:
A jam session is an inpromptu gathering of musicians to play improvisations together
As I said, showing off.
You keep using this term. I guess you do not play an instrument. There is no and I repeat no showing off necessary nor in the definition. The definition does not even imply such.
_____________________________
Don't take life here to seriously. No one gets out alive.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 12:12:58 PM
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KatMack
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Doug, I'm guessing you are not a musician? I'm not either, but I'm close friends with several. There is great joy that comes from playing. My experience has been that most jam sessions are about the joy of getting together and playing, not showing off. I'm an amateur actress and derive the same joy from improv classes and groups (the theatrical equivalent to a jam session). It's not about showing off my theatrical talents, it's about practicing, stretching and participating in something that I love.
Not saying that's the case in this situation, but if we are removing the leadership issues from this and merely speaking of what should or shouldn't happen within the church walls, I think it's an important distinction.
--Kat
_____________________________
<-- My sweet blessings.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 12:21:22 PM
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DougHorton
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Corporate worship is corporate.
Anytime attention is brought to an individual, showcasing a skill, it ceases to be corporate worship.
Yes, even the preachers face a very real danger of falling into this category.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 12:24:12 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1874
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I don't know about that.... I enjoy messages in music. It gives me time to sit back and hear the words of praise to my Lord or words that cause me to reflect upon certain things, mainly the condition of my heart.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 12:26:43 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 10530
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
Corporate worship is corporate.
Anytime attention is brought to an individual, showcasing a skill, it ceases to be corporate worship.
Yes, even the preachers face a very real danger of falling into this category.
I pretty much agree with this post. But the OP however, was not talking about a worship situation. They were talking about a group of musicians getting together to play music. There is a difference. As far as showing off, do you play golf, tennis, have a job, etc. Do you put forth your best effort at these skills. Then according to your logic applied here you are guilty of showing off. You see that's all a bunch of musicians do. Gather in one place and put forth their best effort.
_____________________________
Don't take life here to seriously. No one gets out alive.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 12:31:01 PM
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Zhi
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Huh. I've never been to a jam session, Christian or otherwise, where I thought the point was "showing off".
Usually people are teaching each other, showing new tricks they've learned or chord/note progressions they've worked out, working out the music for songs they like, learning new songs from each other, asking each other questions and giving advice, and just having fun playing together.
Sure there are arrogant musicians out there, but frankly I would think they would want to avoid a jam session, as jam sessions are all about give and take and discussion, not "I'm better than all of you". The whole POINT of a jam session is to support and encourage each other musically.
Which interestingly parallels the purpose of the church itself, which is to support and encourage each other spiritually. *ponder*
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/25/2008 12:44:08 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1874
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quote:
Which interestingly parallels the purpose of the church itself, which is to support and encourage each other spiritually. *ponder*
Which would be fine, if this gathering were to be spiritually minded. Just because something takes place in a church, does not make it spiritual. You would think that because it takes place in a church, there would be some spiritual affiliation. However, that is not always the case, as we have seen.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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