|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 7:59:54 PM
|
|
|
DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 7735
Joined: 6/5/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
However, I saw many, many alcoholics in bars.
It seems as though there's a connection. 
_____________________________
The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 8:03:30 PM
|
|
|
armydude
Posts: 16902
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Sure seems like I am consistent with scripture. Point out, exactly, what you find to be inconsistent, would you please.
OK. Here goes. At the start you were talking about a "jam session" in church being a bad thing. I went to dictionary.com and found the following two results for "jam session".
1. a meeting of a group of musicians, esp. jazz musicians, to play for their own enjoyment.
2. an impromptu jazz performance or special performance by jazz musicians who do not regularly play together.
Didn't mention "bar", "bar scene", or "bar factor". That's your idea. Above you will see exactly what a "jam session is. It has nothing to do with alcohol and everything to do with music.
Later in the thread you started talking about this man and the problems with him as a leader. So it seems to me that your original point has been lost, and that it was you that lost it. Please explain. Is your problem with him as a leader, or is your problem with the gathering of musicians to perform music? Especially since you said early that alcohol wouldn't be there but coffee would be served.
THIS post contains the following.quote:
Here is an update: No more mention of byob, now it's refreshments and gourmet coffee being served. The cost is free, so it's non profit. And please, once you answer which it is, stay consistent with your own answer.
_____________________________
No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 8:03:36 PM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
It seems as though there's a connection.
Yeah, it's kind of a no-brainer.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 8:42:14 PM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
Is your problem with him as a leader, or is your problem with the gathering of musicians to perform music? Especially since you said early that alcohol wouldn't be there but coffee would be served.
THIS post contains the following.
I have already stated quite clearly and with scripture back up that I have a problem with him and why.
As I have stated over and over, the issue i take with this is jam session with alcohol in a church. it could be any church with any leader and I would feel the same way. That this man and his flaws were brought up is a side issue.
I did say early on in the post because that was the right thing to do. To not mention it would have been to intentionally deceive people. That wasn't what the thread was for.
I find your attempts at trying to find inconsistency in my posts a very sad attempt. jam session was a really far reach. In order to discredit someone they really have to do something discrediting.
I don't care if you agree with me or not, but attempting to discredit me, did what for you exactly? Feel good about, puff your ego, what? Just for fun? I don't recall ever picking a bone with you, so I don't see where the animosity is coming from.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 8:44:00 PM
|
|
|
ddave12000
Posts: 77
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
While this is very true my friend, you are also told this:
1Cr 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
Someone more knowledgeable than me can correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this verse talking about professed believers who do these things? Isn't that why it says "any man that is called a brother"?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 8:44:11 PM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
OK. Here goes. At the start you were talking about a "jam session" in church being a bad thing. I went to dictionary.com and found the following two results for "jam session".
1. a meeting of a group of musicians, esp. jazz musicians, to play for their own enjoyment.
2. an impromptu jazz performance or special performance by jazz musicians who do not regularly play together.
Ok, pardon me for my improper use of the term jam.
The guy is not a jazz musician.
quote:
There is a man I know who has decided to bring the bar into church. he is a musician and has decided to have a jam session in the church itself, as it is not very big. He also will change the name to ******** Free Church. I have not heard if this is with the pastor's blessing or not, yet. The above statement is how it was presented to me without further detail.
As I have already stated, this is how his wife presented it to me.
quote:
So it seems to me that your original point has been lost, and that it was you that lost it.
Sure looks to me like I was trying to put it back on track.
quote:
The thread raged on under the premise of the alcohol still being in the scene. Alcohol in the church has been the major debate. the question kept being asked in an implied manner why I object so vehemently to this (alcohol being in church) and I stated some things about the instigator of the leader. Now, I'm accused of being misleading and accusing others of all sorts of things, when in reality, the man's defects have no bearing on my position. It still remains the same whether he was apart of it or not.
This thought bears repeating:
The purpose of this thread is to focus on our perceptions of what should or should not take place in a church setting, why or why not.
And that was only one of the several times I tried to get it back on track rather than focusing on the man.
If people asked questions about him or in regards to him. I answered them honestly.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 8:46:15 PM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
Someone more knowledgeable than me can correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this verse talking about professed believers who do these things? Isn't that why it says "any man that is called a brother"?
Yes it does. I was referring to the music leader's character.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 8:46:25 PM
|
|
|
ddave12000
Posts: 77
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloak
What if someone struggles with alcohol. What has that church contributed to help him get over it OR rather reinforced his alcoholism in this case! 
Do you also believe that churches should stop having food at events in case someone struggles with an eating disorder?
Do you believe churches should not have fundraisers in case someone has a money related problem?
I'm not defending what that church was doing, but I find this type of logic faulty.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 8:49:02 PM
|
|
|
ddave12000
Posts: 77
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
That isn't on the minds of most people when they think "bar".
That would be an incorrect answer from this corner. (former alcoholic)
I can just as easily say that it's a correct answer from my perspective.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 8:49:58 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ddave12000
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
While this is very true my friend, you are also told this:
1Cr 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
Someone more knowledgeable than me can correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this verse talking about professed believers who do these things? Isn't that why it says "any man that is called a brother"?
Yup... That verse and the ones surrounding it speaking of the church dealing with someone who refuses to repent, and that person professing to be a believer... Paul is speaking to the jurisdiction of the church in regarding to removing folks who refuse to repent...
Now does that give one the ok to hang out with unsaved fornicators? I don't think so, since it's about jurisdiction regarding judgment...
John
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 8:51:28 PM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
That isn't on the minds of most people when they think "bar".
That would be an incorrect answer from this corner. (former alcoholic)
I can just as easily say that it's a correct answer from my perspective.
What is the thought you are trying to convey?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 8:52:57 PM
|
|
|
armydude
Posts: 16902
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Is your problem with him as a leader, or is your problem with the gathering of musicians to perform music? Especially since you said early that alcohol wouldn't be there but coffee would be served.
THIS post contains the following.
I have already stated quite clearly and with scripture back up that I have a problem with him and why.
As I have stated over and over, the issue i take with this is jam session with alcohol in a church. it could be any church with any leader and I would feel the same way. That this man and his flaws were brought up is a side issue. Who brought it up? Considering that nobody else would know about his flaws...quote:
I did say early on in the post because that was the right thing to do. To not mention it would have been to intentionally deceive people. That wasn't what the thread was for.
I find your attempts at trying to find inconsistency in my posts a very sad attempt. jam session was a really far reach. In order to discredit someone they really have to do something discrediting. It was really reaching to give a definition for "jam session"? You say it's about alcohol, yet you've shown no proof for that view. I showed that it's all about music. And I gave proof.quote:
I don't care if you agree with me or not, but attempting to discredit me, did what for you exactly? Feel good about, puff your ego, what? Just for fun? I don't recall ever picking a bone with you, so I don't see where the animosity is coming from.
Animosity? I have no animosity toward you. I'm bringing up a valid point.
_____________________________
No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 8:53:36 PM
|
|
|
ddave12000
Posts: 77
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Someone more knowledgeable than me can correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this verse talking about professed believers who do these things? Isn't that why it says "any man that is called a brother"?
Yes it does. I was referring to the music leader's character.
I thought you were using this verse as justification for not hanging out with unbelievers who do these things? Maybe I completely misunderstood your post.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 8:56:20 PM
|
|
|
ddave12000
Posts: 77
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: ddave12000
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
While this is very true my friend, you are also told this:
1Cr 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
Someone more knowledgeable than me can correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this verse talking about professed believers who do these things? Isn't that why it says "any man that is called a brother"?
Yup... That verse and the ones surrounding it speaking of the church dealing with someone who refuses to repent, and that person professing to be a believer... Paul is speaking to the jurisdiction of the church in regarding to removing folks who refuse to repent...
Now does that give one the ok to hang out with unsaved fornicators? I don't think so, since it's about jurisdiction regarding judgment...
John
OK, so you choose to not reach out to anyone outside of your Christian circle and I choose to in hopes that they will come to know Christ. Prove to me from scripture that what you say is true. Perhaps you deny the verses where Jesus dines with prostitutes and tax collectors? Or when he visited the samaritan woman at the well?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 8:56:30 PM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
I'm bringing up a valid point.
No your not. I repeated to ya'll what his wife said to me.
Anyways, I appreciate your attempts at a wild goose chase, but if you have anything else to say in regards to the thread and not personal attacks towards me, can we get back to it?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 8:57:45 PM
|
|
|
ddave12000
Posts: 77
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
That isn't on the minds of most people when they think "bar".
That would be an incorrect answer from this corner. (former alcoholic)
I can just as easily say that it's a correct answer from my perspective.
What is the thought you are trying to convey?
um...the opposite thought that you were. I can just as easily assert what I think the populace believes with no evidence. Your statement has no merit to stand on its own.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 9:00:04 PM
|
|
|
ddave12000
Posts: 77
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloak
quote:
ORIGINAL: ddave12000
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cloak
What if someone struggles with alcohol. What has that church contributed to help him get over it OR rather reinforced his alcoholism in this case!
Do you also believe that churches should stop having food at events in case someone struggles with an eating disorder?
Do you believe churches should not have fundraisers in case someone has a money related problem?
I'm not defending what that church was doing, but I find this type of logic faulty.
Yet it is true. Many people are either recovered alcoholic or are still struggling with it. By allowing bars in churches, a church is not helping them to progress but rather regress and fall into temptation.
While being a social drinker is Not sinful or qualify you to be a sinner, promoting drinking in churches is dubious unless it is served as wine for holy communion in small quantities as many churches do.
The Bible states clearly: do not get drunk with alcohol.
In the Bible both beer and wine were mentioned.
In Cana wedding, wine was served and Jesus prepared wine for invitees.
However, since moderation is something hard for alcoholics, churches need to practice prudence with alcohol due to alcohol addiction to many churchgoers and parishioners and even new comers and folks who are trying to develop a relationship with the Lord.
I think you should re-read my post. It seems you missed my point altogether.
I'm not advocating what that church did is right. In fact, I'm not even offering an opinion on it. What I did offer my opinion on is that I find your reasoning to be faulty.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 9:00:51 PM
|
|
|
shemaromans
Posts: 3877
Joined: 3/30/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: ddave12000
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
While this is very true my friend, you are also told this:
1Cr 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
Someone more knowledgeable than me can correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this verse talking about professed believers who do these things? Isn't that why it says "any man that is called a brother"?
Yup... That verse and the ones surrounding it speaking of the church dealing with someone who refuses to repent, and that person professing to be a believer... Paul is speaking to the jurisdiction of the church in regarding to removing folks who refuse to repent...
Now does that give one the ok to hang out with unsaved fornicators? I don't think so, since it's about jurisdiction regarding judgment...
John
Does that mean that I'm sinning when I go to eat dinner at my friend's house? She isn't saved and lives with her boyfriend.
Does that mean that Jesus sinned when he hung out with Mary Magdeline and when he talked with the Samaritan lady at the well? I sure hope not because that would mean that he actually was sinful during his life, thereby making his sacrifice for us false and the effects of it null and void.
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 9:01:52 PM
|
|
|
armydude
Posts: 16902
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
I'm bringing up a valid point.
No your not. I repeated to ya'll what his wife said to me.
Anyways, I appreciate your attempts at a wild goose chase, but if you have anything else to say in regards to the thread and not personal attacks towards me, can we get back to it?
These were not intended to be personal attacks, but if you believe them to be, there's a little "report" link under each of my posts. And you can email community@salemwebnetwork.com to tell the administrator.
I am telling what I believe to be the truth. And I'm doing my best to say it in love. I may be failing in that, and if I am, I apologize. But I stand by the truth.
_____________________________
No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 9:09:07 PM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
These were not intended to be personal attacks, but if you believe them to be, there's a little "report" link under each of my posts. And you can email community@salemwebnetwork.com to tell the administrator.
I have no need to run and tattletail. I feel like it has been resolved. I know what I have said and anyone can go back and double check if they feel the need to.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 9:11:15 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ddave12000
OK, so you choose to not reach out to anyone outside of your Christian circle and I choose to in hopes that they will come to know Christ.
Hangin out or reaching out?
quote:
Prove to me from scripture that what you say is true.
1 Corinthians 5 is pretty clear regarding the fact it's speaking to the jurisdiction of the church...
Are you saying that 1 Corinthians 5 implies it's ok to hang out with unsaved fornicators?
1 Corinthians 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
I believe the above is regarding dealing with the folks in daily lives, going to work, the store, whatever and the fact we cannot do so without being in proximity to them… I don't see where is says we should seek their friendship...
quote:
Perhaps you deny the verses where Jesus dines with prostitutes and tax collectors?
Without a doubt Christ was surrounded by sinners daily... How could He not be since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...
John
Psalms 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 9:12:07 PM
|
|
|
armydude
Posts: 16902
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
These were not intended to be personal attacks, but if you believe them to be, there's a little "report" link under each of my posts. And you can email community@salemwebnetwork.com to tell the administrator.
I have no need to run and tattletail. I feel like it has been resolved. I know what I have said and anyone can go back and double check if they feel the need to.
In that case, I certainly hope that there are no hard feelings. I still stand by my words, but as I said there is no animosity toward you. I usually agree with you, just not here.
_____________________________
No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 9:17:15 PM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
In that case, I certainly hope that there are no hard feelings. I still stand by my words, but as I said there is no animosity toward you. I usually agree with you, just not here.
No hard feelings. It's a debate. I would rather someone stand by their position whether I think it's right or it's wrong. In the end, what I think, doesn't matter. Standing firm is certainly more convincing than someone who wavers and back pedals....
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
