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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 5:41:33 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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Let me slow down and try and explain it as clear as possible one last time.
The church building is not inherently sacred. It is not a temple. It is no more consecrated than a park or a gymnasium.
If I was in a gymnasium playing music, I might look up and see the basketball goals and think about the game of basketball for a bit that night. Is that an unreasonable statement?
If I was in a park, I might see a bike bath and think about bicycle riding for a bit. Is that an unreasonable statement?
If I was in a church building, I might see a cross or several pews and think about Jesus or a church service for a bit. Is that an unreasonable statement?
It's simply about of what these places tend to remind people, rather than some inherent sacredness.
If you understand my opinion, please try not to distort it, as you did (perhaps unknowingly) when you said "What should prompt them to think about Christ? It's not the Temple... The building is just a box...". It's not just a box. It's a building with decorations and certain items characteristic of a church building which could easily prompt someone tho think about Christ.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 5:44:47 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Fruits are exhibited by treating others with love, kindness, goodness and gentleness, as well as having an attitude of joy, peace, faithfulness, and self-control. That's what I am told to look for to find out who is true and who is false.
And what tells us how to and what to do and what not to do? Are those things not found in the word of God? Break any of the laws handed down to Moses regarding man and you will not be treating people with gentleness and kindness...
quote:
I've met a lot of Christians who make a habit of condemning others who do not treat people with gentleness and kindness. This is the kind of thing I believe I'm told by God to watch out for.
Shouldn't Christians rebuke those who don't do not treat people with gentleness and kindness?
John
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 5:45:04 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Fruits are exhibited by treating others with love, kindness, goodness and gentleness, as well as having an attitude of joy, peace, faithfulness, and self-control. That's what I am told to look for to find out who is true and who is false. I've met a lot of Christians who make a habit of condemning others who do not treat people with gentleness and kindness. This is the kind of thing I believe I'm told by God to watch out for.
While this is very true my friend, you are also told this:
1Cr 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Cr 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Cr 5:13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
So long as when we judge within, we do it with gentleness, kindness, love, etc, I agree.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 5:45:39 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/30/2007
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We are also told this:
Eph 4:17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,
Eph 4:18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;
Eph 4:19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.
Eph 4:20 But you did not learn Christ in this way,
Eph 4:21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,
Eph 4:22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
Eph 4:23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
Eph 4:24 and put on the new self, which in {the likeness of} God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
And this one for sure:
Eph 5:15 Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise,
Eph 5:16 making the most of your time, because the days are evil.
Eph 5:17 So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
I can keep going if you wish.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 5:47:02 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Fruits are exhibited by treating others with love, kindness, goodness and gentleness, as well as having an attitude of joy, peace, faithfulness, and self-control. That's what I am told to look for to find out who is true and who is false.
And what tells us how to and what to do and what not to do? Are those things not found in the word of God? Break any of the laws handed down to Moses regarding man and you will not be treating people with gentleness and kindness...
quote:
I've met a lot of Christians who make a habit of condemning others who do not treat people with gentleness and kindness. This is the kind of thing I believe I'm told by God to watch out for.
Shouldn't Christians rebuke those who don't do not treat people with gentleness and kindness?
John
Again, John, I don't believe this is the thread to debate the Law of Moses. There is a one-stop for that, where I'd be glad to talk with you about that issue.
I don't quite understand your last question, but I'll try to answer it. Whenever Christians rebuke others, they should always do so with gentleness and kindness. Is that what you were asking?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 5:48:06 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
We are also told this:
Eph 4:17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,
Eph 4:18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;
Eph 4:19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.
Eph 4:20 But you did not learn Christ in this way,
Eph 4:21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,
Eph 4:22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
Eph 4:23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
Eph 4:24 and put on the new self, which in {the likeness of} God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
And this one for sure:
Eph 5:15 Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise,
Eph 5:16 making the most of your time, because the days are evil.
Eph 5:17 So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
I can keep going if you wish.
I don't quite understand what it is you're trying to say...
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 5:52:19 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
I don't quite understand what it is you're trying to say...
You don't see how Christian conduct (specifically in this case a church building) or out should be guarded and not like the world?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 5:56:38 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
If I was in a church building, I might see a cross or several pews and think about Jesus or a church service for a bit. Is that an unreasonable statement?
Let's finish the picture... First a building is a building(your statement)... Not a church building... The purpose for the use of the building is music and having some beers(again, nothing sinful...) Decorations would probably be put away or covered, and layout would be changed to accommodate the event...
quote:
It's simply about of what these places tend to remind people, rather than some inherent sacredness.
What memory of church do unsaved people have? The scence from the Blues Brothers with James Brown and people flying allover the place?
quote:
If you understand my opinion, please try not to distort it, as you did (perhaps unknowingly) when you said "What should prompt them to think about Christ? It's not the Temple... The building is just a box...". It's not just a box.
It seems you are retracting your a building is just a building statement...
quote:
It's a building with decorations and certain items characteristic of a church building which could easily prompt someone tho think about Christ.
If that's the case buying rolling papers should to given the likeness on the package... 
John
It seems you simply don't want to understand what I'm saying about this. I'm not going to argue with you about what I believe the church building is.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 5:57:51 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Again, John, I don't believe this is the thread to debate the Law of Moses. There is a one-stop for that, where I'd be glad to talk with you about that issue.
It's not about fruit either... Though I understand why you want the law thing to go away...
quote:
I don't quite understand your last question, but I'll try to answer it. Whenever Christians rebuke others, they should always do so with gentleness and kindness. Is that what you were asking?
You spoke of people not acting in gentleness and kindness and the people condemning them... Actually I wasn't sure who you are saying to look out for? Are you on the watch for those condemening or those not acting in gentleness and kindness? Both?
John
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 5:59:22 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
I don't quite understand what it is you're trying to say...
You don't see how Christian conduct (specifically in this case a church building) or out should be guarded and not like the world?
Specifically in this case, not in the slightest. We're not to be like the unwise because we're not to do unwise things. Do you really believe this means to never do anything any unsaved person does?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 6:03:06 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Do you really believe this means to never do anything any unsaved person does?
No. I believe specifically in this case, a jam session in a church as would be done in a secular atmosphere, would be doing as the unsaved do, in a church building.
ETA:quote:
We're not to be like the unwise because we're not to do unwise things.
This is an unwise witness to the world.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 6:05:18 PM
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DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 7735
Joined: 6/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
I have to say I am sickened to see so many Christians placing the physical church BUILDING on such a pedistal.
I am equally sick of Christians excusing wordly things for their own leisures.
No wonder Christians are often viewed as hypocritical.
quote:
IT IS A BUILDING PEOPLE! News flash, there is nothing more holy about the baptist/methodist/presbyterian/ect building and the office building next door to it. NOTHING.
It isn't about the literal bodily structure. It's about whats represented.
It's the same with our own temple. It is to remain clean, pure, and holy because it is the dwelling place of Christ. The physical church should have that same representation.
_____________________________
The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 6:06:42 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Again, John, I don't believe this is the thread to debate the Law of Moses. There is a one-stop for that, where I'd be glad to talk with you about that issue.
It's not about fruit either... Though I understand why you want the law thing to go away...
quote:
I don't quite understand your last question, but I'll try to answer it. Whenever Christians rebuke others, they should always do so with gentleness and kindness. Is that what you were asking?
You spoke of people not acting in gentleness and kindness and the people condemning them... Actually I wasn't sure who you are saying to look out for? Are you on the watch for those condemening or those not acting in gentleness and kindness? Both?
John
Who said I wanted the law thing to go away? I simply don't want this thread thrown into one-stop land. If there were a one-stop for the fruit of the spirit, I wouldn't be talking about that here either.
Just those who don't act with gentleness and kindness, but condemnation might not be the right word; it implies harshness.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 6:07:01 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
I don't quite understand what it is you're trying to say...
You don't see how Christian conduct (specifically in this case a church building) or out should be guarded and not like the world?
Specifically in this case, not in the slightest. We're not to be like the unwise because we're not to do unwise things. Do you really believe this means to never do anything any unsaved person does?
That is always the catch... Where do we draw the line? You spoke of the following....
We still wear ties. We still use toilets. We speak the same languages. We all drink the same city water.
Those are pretty innocuous things to mention...
John
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 6:07:03 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
I have to say I am sickened to see so many Christians placing the physical church BUILDING on such a pedistal.
I am equally sick of Christians excusing wordly things for their own leisures.
No wonder Christians are often viewed as hypocritical.
quote:
IT IS A BUILDING PEOPLE! News flash, there is nothing more holy about the baptist/methodist/presbyterian/ect building and the office building next door to it. NOTHING.
It isn't about the literal bodily structure. It's about whats represented.
It's the same with our own temple. It is to remain clean, pure, and holy because it is the dwelling place of Christ. The physical church should have that same representation.
AMEN!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 6:09:14 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1983
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
That is always the catch... Where do we draw the line?
We already have the lines drawn for us. For some it's just too hard and it's easier to smudge the lines with compromise and complacency.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 6:10:08 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Who said I wanted the law thing to go away? I simply don't want this thread thrown into one-stop land. If there were a one-stop for the fruit of the spirit, I wouldn't be talking about that here either.
Sure thing...
quote:
Just those who don't act with gentleness and kindness, but condemnation might not be the right word; it implies harshness.
Ok... yet you said:
My question is why do so many Christians not trust the Spirit to guide our brothers? So many people feel they have to lay down law after law for everyone.
John
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 6:13:10 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
What we have come to is you want it both ways... You made the point it's just a building, like any other, that's what a building is just building means, and at the same time you say that the building with it's decorations and layout has an influnce by just sitting there.
John
Again, you don't understand what I'm saying. You're stuck on that one phrase, whose meaning you have decided on and you won't listen to my elaborations and explanations. What's the point of continuing the argument?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 6:14:16 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Who said I wanted the law thing to go away? I simply don't want this thread thrown into one-stop land. If there were a one-stop for the fruit of the spirit, I wouldn't be talking about that here either.
Sure thing...
quote:
Just those who don't act with gentleness and kindness, but condemnation might not be the right word; it implies harshness.
Ok... yet you said:
My question is why do so many Christians not trust the Spirit to guide our brothers? So many people feel they have to lay down law after law for everyone.
John
Do you believe you have to condemn people to teach them to follow the Spirit?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 6:15:16 PM
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DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 7735
Joined: 6/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Do you really believe this means to never do anything any unsaved person does?
Our sin nature makes this notion inevitable. We fall short just as the unsaved.
I don't believe the physical church should be a place where questionable things are practiced. Scripture tells us to flee from the appearance of evil.
When the secular community thinks "bar", they think "alcohol". An image of alcoholic nature isn't an example that a church should be setting, in my opinion. Whatever a church does, it should always consider Christ and not our own desires.
_____________________________
The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.
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RE: Bringing the bar into church - 7/24/2008 6:15:55 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
That is always the catch... Where do we draw the line?
We already have the lines drawn for us. For some it's just too hard and it's easier to smudge the lines with compromise and complacency.
Show me these lines, if you will.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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