Lack of Reissues of Classic Christian Artists (Full Version)

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Rufas2000 -> Lack of Reissues of Classic Christian Artists (7/22/2008 4:38:37 PM)

Having just purchased Phil Keaggy's "The Master and the Musician" 30th anniversary reissue it brought to mind something that annoys me about the Christian music industry. Simply put, why is it that the back catalog of most Christian rock artists out of print. And aside from Amy Grant (and Larry Norman but see below) I can't think of a Christian artist on a Christian label (as opposed to an artist that has Christian beliefs but worked in the secular scene) that has received an upgrade on their catalog (or at least a significant part of it).

Take Larry Norman: why is his stuff not readily available (aside from his website). This is the forefather of "Jesus rock" according to many. Where are the reissues in stores and on Amazon? But at least you can get those.

Petra: one of the pioneering Christian bands but their catalog is out of print. If you want their stuff you have to go the Amazon Marketplace or Ebay route. Not only should their stuff be in print but the catalog should be upgraded with remastered editions. All you can find are a dozen greatest hits comps. Those aren't a good way to learn about an artist (besides that they had hits but we already knew that).

Rez Band: its very simple, Rez Band broke down the barriers in the Christian market that allows record labels like Tooth and Nail to be the mega million dollar businesses they are. Rez was the first (or one of the very first) to play the music that was on the cutting edge with the kids. But you can barely find their CDs, even used.

And there is Whiteheart, the 77s, the Choir and many others. Even Geoff Moore and Michael W Smith have stuff that is OOP and their back catalogs haven't been improved.

Secular artists get reissued constantly and many times over and over. The major record labels have divisions devoted to quality reissues (Warner has Rhino, Sony has Legacy). So why doesn't the Christian market attempt to preserve its own history and get this stuff out?

Feedback welcome. But I understand its about money but I don't see where Petra and Rez Band can't be as profitable a venture as some of the relatively minor secular artists that get reissued. Especially because establishing a history for Christian rock can only help it as it moves forward.



rlj -> RE: Lack of Reissues of Classic Christian Artists (7/22/2008 5:19:20 PM)

There isn't as much demand for the christian stuff. Sadly though no one wants to convert the old stuff to MP3 and sell it legally on the internet that owns the copyrights. Some of that would sell and I can't believe it wouldn't make money at the end of the day.



humbleinspirit -> RE: Lack of Reissues of Classic Christian Artists (7/22/2008 5:41:13 PM)

Really? I will have to look into how much Petra's stuff is OOP.

I do know that if you are less than a superstar in CCM, you're fortunate if you get even as much as one printing of your music at all.



humbleinspirit -> RE: Lack of Reissues of Classic Christian Artists (7/22/2008 5:43:39 PM)

I just did a search on Amazon and most of Petra's music is still available 1979/80 onward.



Rufas2000 -> RE: Lack of Reissues of Classic Christian Artists (7/22/2008 6:37:06 PM)

quote:

I just did a search on Amazon and most of Petra's music is still available 1979/80 onward.


But its only available through Amazon Marketplace. Amazon itself does not carry it because it is out of print (I'm under the impression if its in print Amazon has it or will restock it soon). So if I want it I have to trust a private seller working through the Marketplace. Granted it has served me well but the industry itself should be reissueing this stuff.

For me its not a matter of being able to get it. I'm quite fortunate in that I've found all my "must haves" and most of my 'would be nices" without breaking the bank. Its a matter of respecting the history of Christian rock and establishing it in the right way. Its just hard for me to believe that Petra couldn't outsell some of the obscure secular stuff that gets reissued.

I think Petra deserves the full reissue treatment with remastering and liner notes (these are especially important to establish that history from their own words and the words of those close to them). Rez Band also. I think they would sell reasonably well, especially the Petra. Maybe I'm wrong, hence the topic.

Thanks for the responses.



Rufas2000 -> RE: Lack of Reissues of Classic Christian Artists (7/22/2008 6:47:35 PM)

quote:

Sadly though no one wants to convert the old stuff to MP3 and sell it legally on the internet that owns the copyrights.


In fairness much of the stuff I mentioned is available on Itunes but its hit and miss. But it most likely hasn't been remastered and there are no liner notes. Its just there. Having a nice package increases the prestige of the music. It shows up on store shelves (including Christian ones) and increases awareness. And even with the rise of downloading reissues are still being churned out. UFO & U2 just released portions of their back catalog and appear to be working their way through all of it.

If there is a way to accomplish getting the music out there along with its history over the internet I'm all for it. That would include downloads in full .wav format and not just the compressed and inferior sound quality files available via Itunes and other d/l services.



mapachito13 -> RE: Lack of Reissues of Classic Christian Artists (7/22/2008 9:52:50 PM)

With older stuff it can take years, no decades, working out all the copyright and royalty stuff. If the person is deceased and his/her heirs own the rights negotiations can be downright nasty and mercenary. The artist or group member might have been doing it for God's glory but their heirs may be doing it for the money.

The headache is multiplied exponentially with each additional group member. Then there's the record company, producer, etc. all out for their cut.



gaylel1 -> RE: Lack of Reissues of Classic Christian Artists (7/22/2008 10:05:44 PM)

Unfortnatly many of the Christian artists back in the day did not keep their masters because either they were out of print or the record companies in those days kept their orginal music and it is the property of them.

But the Christian artists in those days did not have any legal recourse to fight to keep the right to their masters because they were either they did not know about contract law nor they did not know about artists rights nor copyright law. At least the younger artists now has attorneys to deal with their legal affairs and let folk know about the industry and any legal recourse if their music is used illigally.

These artists, the early ones, should had got a page from Ray Charles who kept each and every one of his masters until his death.



StraightAhead -> RE: Lack of Reissues of Classic Christian Artists (7/23/2008 1:02:41 AM)

Check iTunes for Larry Norman, Petra, Whiteheart and other older music. iTunes has upgraded the Larry Norman and Petra music to what they call iTunes Plus (CD quality music). I think the regular downloads are just fine, but this is even better sounding.



Rufas2000 -> RE: Lack of Reissues of Classic Christian Artists (7/23/2008 2:41:46 AM)

quote:

Check iTunes for Larry Norman, Petra, Whiteheart and other older music. iTunes has upgraded the Larry Norman and Petra music to what they call iTunes Plus (CD quality music). I think the regular downloads are just fine, but this is even better sounding.


Good to know. I do have to say that Itunes downloads sound fine but CDs sound better. It only stands to reason: these download formats are taken from CDs and condensed / compressed. The file sizes are a fraction of what a track burnt from a CD would be (.wav format). The technology of these formats does a good job in replicating the original but only so much can be done when you are using a fraction of the original information. Granted on an Ipod or a computer you're not going to hear the difference but when you play it back on a nice home or car system it just won't sound quite as good. That's been my experience anyway.

But while having the songs available is the most important thing its not really my bone of contention here. Like I said, I have just about all the classic Christian stuff I want in CD. Its about honoring your history, being proud of where it all started. Packaging with liner notes is an important part of that, that probably isn't on iTunes. Promotion of it, start a reissue campaign, get display space in Christian stores with a tag line like "Go back to where it all began". Remaster it so a better sounding copy is available on CD and iTunes (I doubt the iTunes downloads are anything more than converted CDs, which is fine but not what I have in mind here).

If a physical product is not feasible (and I'm not seeing why that would be but I might be missing it) then maybe a website where you can download tracks that have been remastered (remastered iTunes is probably better than late 80s, early 90s first issue, minimum effort CDs) and learn about these artists. Not just the basics but the type of stuff you see in liner notes. Where was the artist at emotionally, spiritually, physically when they wrote the songs. How do they feel about them now? What do they believe their legacy was? Any notes from the road? How do respected industry insiders feel about the artist and work? In essence online liner notes on par with (or exceeding, less limits online) what you would find in a top of the line Rhino reissue. I learn so much about the music I listen to when I read these extensive liner notes and I get that much more out of the music. Sure this stuff can probably be found (with great effort) but liner notes are a great way to learn this stuff while listening to the music. and they are more focused than an internet or wiki search.

That's my take. Its not a huge deal, anyone with a mind to do so (and a little cash) can find most of what they want in classic Christian music. And it is great that some of these artists are showing up on iTunes no doubt. I'd just like to see more done, to see the pioneering Christian artists get the same treatment as many relatively obscure secular artists get.



uncabeeil -> RE: Lack of Reissues of Classic Christian Artists (7/23/2008 10:30:31 AM)

quote:

its only available through Amazon Marketplace.
We can still get most of Petra's old stuff at the Christian book store where I work. Got one in your neighborhood? Most of Smitty's old stuff is still available to us, too. But you're right, generally speaking, most of the original Jesus music artists are no longer available. It just doesn't have a big enough profit margin to make it worth the effort. Another one of those "somebody oughta do something about it" things.



Rufas2000 -> RE: Lack of Reissues of Classic Christian Artists (7/23/2008 11:02:29 AM)

quote:

We can still get most of Petra's old stuff at the Christian book store where I work.


I haven't seen it at the Famly Christian store about 20 minutes away but I don't go very often. Or do you mean you can special order it?

As far as profit margin I could see that except for some of the secular artists that get reissued. Take UFO for example. I get that they influenced many hard rock artists. I get that they are huge over in Europe. They are now being reissued in the USA where they didn't really hit it that big. They have already been reissued in Europe, I know as I bought "Lights Out" (import from Holland but the price was normal) last year and now it just got another remastering, now for USA audiences. By what I've found Petra outsold UFO in the USA (Petra has two gold albums as determined by RIAA) and while UFO was influential in the hard rock genre Petra was one of the pioneers of the Christian rock movement. The only argument I can see for why UFO would sell better in America than Petra is because UFO appeals to a more loyal hard core fan than Petra did. I'm not sure thats the case though.

Not to slag on UFO but they are a conveient example as they have a current reissue campaign here in the USA. And I'm using Petra as the example because I realize Rez Band and some the others would not sell very well. But if the current right holders would sell the rights someone would jump on it.

Anyway, thanks to everyone for their input. Like Uncabeeil said its one of those somebody ought to things. But other than posting on the internet what are you going to do?



stellaluna -> RE: Lack of Reissues of Classic Christian Artists (7/23/2008 11:07:17 AM)

Limewire.

(Who said that?)



Rufas2000 -> RE: Lack of Reissues of Classic Christian Artists (7/23/2008 11:10:39 AM)

quote:

Limewire.

(Who said that?)


[:D]

Hee Hee Hee



uncabeeil -> RE: Lack of Reissues of Classic Christian Artists (7/23/2008 12:27:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

Limewire.

(Who said that?)

Always the rebel. [sm=icon_smile_roll.gif]



stellaluna -> RE: Lack of Reissues of Classic Christian Artists (7/23/2008 2:30:12 PM)

[sm=tongue.gif]



gaylel1 -> RE: Lack of Reissues of Classic Christian Artists (7/23/2008 2:52:23 PM)

It might be a market for the stuff if Christian radio do play these classics, because this is their heritage. Without Jesus music, it would not be any Christian music at all.



uncabeeil -> RE: Lack of Reissues of Classic Christian Artists (7/23/2008 3:03:37 PM)

That's true, Gayle. But with so many stations going with that awful "Family Safe" format those golden oldies aren't getting played any more.



rlj -> RE: Lack of Reissues of Classic Christian Artists (7/23/2008 3:28:19 PM)

quote:

In fairness much of the stuff I mentioned is available on Itunes but its hit and miss. But it most likely hasn't been remastered and there are no liner notes. Its just there. Having a nice package increases the prestige of the music. It shows up on store shelves (including Christian ones) and increases awareness.


The problem with packaging is the cost of the music vs. the small market size. I don't think whehter it is mastered or not really matters because if people want something they'll buy lousy bootlegs and spend three times as much as they would for polished up music. I don't touch Itunes because of the proprietary software and the DRM that comes with the songs so I wouldn't know.



Rufas2000 -> RE: Lack of Reissues of Classic Christian Artists (7/23/2008 4:37:27 PM)

quote:

The problem with packaging is the cost of the music vs. the small market size.


Understood but I wonder why that isn't an issue for secular artists that get reissued who haven't had gold records and the like.

I guess they would be doing it if they thought there was money to be made but they could be underestimating the Christian market. No company, regardless of how successful, is right 100% of the time.

I do think Christian radio could be doing more to increase awareness of the classics.

quote:

I don't touch Itunes because of the proprietary software and the DRM that comes with the songs so I wouldn't know.


I don't use iTunes (much) because I'm old fashioned and refuse to accept new technology. [:D] Actually I like collecting CDs and a CD is a more stable platform than a computer hard drive or an iPod (they're wonderful but I have read reviews that speak of stability & durability issues). I can speak to this because I have stuff on another broken computer I cannot get to unless I have it fixed. I could have burned a CD sure but if I'm going to do that I might as well just buy a CD and get nice packaging and better sound. Of course if I really wanted better sound and nice packaging I'd buy vinyl but I have no turntable and records are too easy for me to mess up (I'm not exactly a "steady hand" or super careful with my stuff).

Anyway, thanks again for all the comments.



markb77 -> RE: Lack of Reissues of Classic Christian Artists (7/23/2008 9:27:30 PM)

Rufus:
This is indeed annoying. I often sit and daydream about walking into my favorite music emporium and being able to purchase newly remastered and expanded editions of "Darn Floor Big Bite" or "Diamonds and Rain". Well, not really, but I think you know what I'm getting at. Wouldn't it be wonderful if there were a label like Razor & Tie (or something similar) that would secure and release out of print back catalog items from CCM artists? It's a small niche, I know, but I can't help but think that, if done correctly, it could have at least a modicum of success. Maybe one day, when I suddenly become independently wealthy, I'll give it a shot. Until then, I'll continue to search my favorite used CD shops, thrift stores, pawn shops and yard sales. There is something to be said for the hunt, I guess.



DaveW -> RE: Lack of Reissues of Classic Christian Artists (7/24/2008 6:54:34 AM)

Paul Clark (who introduced Kelly Willard and to a lesser degree Keaggy to CCM) re-mastered all his old catalog from the 70s and 80s. I do not know if it is available for download but you can buy CDs of everything he did.



mapachito13 -> RE: Lack of Reissues of Classic Christian Artists (7/24/2008 8:30:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: markb77

Rufus:
This is indeed annoying. I often sit and daydream about walking into my favorite music emporium and being able to purchase newly remastered and expanded editions of "Darn Floor Big Bite" or "Diamonds and Rain". Well, not really, but I think you know what I'm getting at. Wouldn't it be wonderful if there were a label like Razor & Tie (or something similar) that would secure and release out of print back catalog items from CCM artists? It's a small niche, I know, but I can't help but think that, if done correctly, it could have at least a modicum of success. Maybe one day, when I suddenly become independently wealthy, I'll give it a shot. Until then, I'll continue to search my favorite used CD shops, thrift stores, pawn shops and yard sales. There is something to be said for the hunt, I guess.


I think it could be successful if it were marketed right and the "play the same artist and songs" radio stations led the way. (A big "if"?)

I have checked out some of these artists due to word of mouth on these boards. The music isn't so dated that it couldn't appeal to people of today. People will buy what they hear and like and hopefully the obstacle set by music rights doesn't create such problem that the record companies say, "Why bother!"



percussionlover -> RE: Lack of Reissues of Classic Christian Artists (7/24/2008 11:21:54 AM)


having worked for a major record label as an A&R guy for many years.
i can tell you that no label, christian or secular will release out of print (back catalog) of an artist or band unless there is such a high demand that the label can make a very high profit etc...
There is so much involved concerning re-releases etc....that it is very costly & time consuming that the record label would rather spend those costs & time in developing their new money making artists.
When a label re-issues an LP from their vaults,first they have to track down the master tapes if possible (if the tapes are in decent enough condition or if the label even has the masters,often,the labels will re-record over the masters etc..) then they have to track down all the original album art work etc..if possible. then the label have to re-write all contracts for everyone involved etc....in that album.
Do you see where i'm gettin at,theres so much involved.
usually ,the albums that get re-released are the ones where the artist or band owns all the master tapes etc....
The best chance to see back catalogs getting re-issued on cd are the small independent labels that specialize in only re-issues like::: Cherry Red records (they just re-released the entire Bay City Rollers catalog w/original album art work,remastering etc...liner notes from original band members etc..),,, Collectables Records,,Sony Music Special Products, Collectors Choice Music,Rhino Records etc......
there's tons of christian albums that i would love to see re-issued on cd,but i know they'll never see the light of day on cd.
if you go to music sites like ::Musicstack & GEMM, where there's dealers from all over the world selling vinyl etc....most of the time,those dealers will burn you a copy of the album you are buying at an extra cost.
for example,i bought a vinyl copy of,,David Martin "Breath On The Window Pane" for $89,that included the LP along with a burned cd copy of the album,but,when they made the cdr copy off the LP,they scanned the front & back covers plus inserts & the label from the record,they also recorded the LP with a program that clears up all the noise of the vinyl.
so,when i got "Breath On The Window Pane",it actually looked like a store bought cd & it sounded like a store bought cd.
The reason why they charge $89,is because there's so much time involved in doing all that.
if you cant find those vintage christian albums on cd,that might be a route to consider........



SuspenseWriter -> RE: Lack of Reissues of Classic Christian Artists (7/24/2008 12:34:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: uncabeeil

That's true, Gayle. But with so many stations going with that awful "Family Safe" format those golden oldies aren't getting played any more.



Quoted for truth...especially that "awful" part. [:D]



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