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Seventh-Day Adventist Church please help - 7/22/2008 5:34:51 AM
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ihmusicman
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I don't know if this is the right forum but need to know if the SDA Church is a Cult or not? I am a new Christian who has been going to the Church. It feels ok but there having this Crusade and they wont put their Church name on it? I thought the Church was ok but now I have second thoughts.
I do not want to get involved in a Cult or something like it.
Thank You!
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RE: Seventh-Day Adventist Church please help - 7/22/2008 6:06:51 AM
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Little_1
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I believe the very fact that you are posting this question may show that you already have a conviction that something is not quite right.
Heavenly Father
I pray that You would help ihmusicman as he seeks Your guidance;
Thank You that You promise that You will be found by those who
seek You with all their hearts.
Father - I thank and praise You for leading ihmusicman to this site
and for the healthy desire that he has to know the Truth.
Heavenly Father - I thank You that You are the Way, the Truth and the Life;
and I praise You that You made a way to come into relationship with You
through your precious son, Jesus.
Please bless ihmusicman and may he not settle for anything less than
Your Truth.
Thank You that You love us with an everlasting love;
May ihmusicman know Your peace which passes all human understanding
and reasoning;
And may his life be blessed and a blessing to others so that You may
be glorified through him.
Thank You Father.
AMEN.
May the peace of God guide your heart ihmusicman for God does not lend His peace to anything that is not of Himself.
< Message edited by Little_1 -- 7/22/2008 6:16:54 AM >
_____________________________
"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer."
ROMANS 12:12
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RE: Seventh-Day Adventist Church please help - 7/22/2008 6:33:14 AM
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DaveW
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I grew up in a hot-bed of SDA congregations, near Andrews University in SW lower Michigan. It is one of their main seminaries.
To be sure, for a long time SDA was indeed a personality cult around Ellen White. Her writings were considered equal to scripture. THat has been slowly changing over the last several decades, starting somewhere in the 50s or 60s. As of now, the denomination has 3 competing camps.
* There are the traditionaisists who still cling to White. They are (last I heard) somewhat less than half of their numbers and falling. They are pretty rigid and legalistic.
* There are the evangelicals, also less than half (but growing) that are pretty much in line with the rest of evangelicalism (except they meet on Saturday and are post-trib). They still read White and respect her as the founder of the denomination but do not consider her writings "inspired" or infallable.
* The third group is a splinter off of the evangelicals called the "Celebration Churches." They are the charismatic/pentecostal branch and comprise about 10 or 15% of the congregations. They seem to be stable in their numbers.
What you described, the seminar (was it on end-time prophecy?) with no affiliation listed is a favorite tool of the traditionalist SDA.
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RE: Seventh-Day Adventist Church please help - 7/22/2008 7:12:04 AM
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Lurker
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While I may disagree with their theology at times, I don't think of them as a cult.
I do find it interesting to realize that I live about 1-2 miles from their world headquarters. :)
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Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Seventh-Day Adventist Church please help - 7/22/2008 8:59:58 AM
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kingdust
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
* There are the traditionaisists who still cling to White. They are (last I heard) somewhat less than half of their numbers and falling. They are pretty rigid and legalistic.
I believe legalism is the main issue with SDA.
Keeping Sabbath holy is one, which is impossible for us to do along with 9 other laws.
Even after the true Sabbath had come, which was, is and is to be found in Jesus, SDA still insists to hang on to the old Sabbath day under the law.
Are we under law or grace?
_____________________________
I am an English as Second Language person and love corrections, kind or unkind, positive or negative, with love or without love, which I am grateful of. Just GIVE!
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RE: Seventh-Day Adventist Church please help - 7/22/2008 10:04:15 AM
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OneJohn410
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IH,
There's some great informational posts here (and a great prayer for you as well). I pray wisdom for you as you seek to resolve this yourself- that you find some resources that are faith-neutral (where there's no blasting away at one faith by another), as well as referenced passages of the Bible and then some written by those whose opinion you hold in high regard. Speed in comprehending music is a blessing, what terms are used in it, how to jump right in and finish a song, identifying who is who and where the tempo is- and that's not an easy thing for just anyone. The sing-song 'Looking for the perfect church? If you find it, don't join it because it won't be perfect anymore' saying always gets a mental yeah, yeah,yeah from me. Enjoy this time of research, and give yourself some time to listen to the Lord for guidance. He knows your heart and in what setting you would like to share music and praise for Him.
OneJohn410
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RE: Seventh-Day Adventist Church please help - 7/22/2008 10:30:47 AM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
I grew up in a hot-bed of SDA congregations, near Andrews University in SW lower Michigan. It is one of their main seminaries.
I knew you were from the Grand Rapids area, but did you ever live anywhere near Berrien Springs?
I graduated from Berrien Springs High School in 1980. The SDA campus there in Berrien Springs is very nice (at least it was 25 years ago). Everybody called them 'peanuts' because of their vegatarian diets. My best friend's dad was an SDA minister until he quit that to go fishing. He said the people made it a high stress occupation (don't know where he'd ever get that idea!).
I think they qualify as a cult if they say you can't be saved if you don't observe the literal Sabbath law (which I think many of them believe). Anything outside of salvation by faith alone is a cult. Although they would probably argue that it's not that Sabbath keeping saves you. It's simply the evidence that proves you are indeed saved. I can see where one might understand that from the OT alone (the Sabbath being one of the 'sign' laws, like circumcision). But we now know in light of NT revelation what God intended to lead us to through those outward requirements.
If you can't accept their connection between salvation and Sabbath keeping then I'd bail out, cause that's what they're all about.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Seventh-Day Adventist Church please help - 7/22/2008 11:27:36 AM
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deermousie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
To be sure, for a long time SDA was indeed a personality cult around Ellen White. Her writings were considered equal to scripture. THat has been slowly changing over the last several decades, starting somewhere in the 50s or 60s. As of now, the denomination has 3 competing camps.
Spot-on post, Dave. Thank you.
One of the main signs of a cult is that it has other writings that they think God inspired and is equal to the Bible.
I was born again in Loma Linda, CA, another SDA hotbed,  and had to find out fast what the deal was. I had SDA friends who believed that the blood of Jesus washed their sin away, and I worked with a lot of people who thought keeping the OT Sabbath would guarantee their salvation.
Nice people, cultured and hard working. Great vegetarian food and health care. It's fast and easy to ask why they think they're going to heaven, and you can rejoice or do ministry.
_____________________________
Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: Seventh-Day Adventist Church please help - 7/22/2008 12:22:41 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
I knew you were from the Grand Rapids area, but did you ever live anywhere near Berrien Springs?
I graduated from Berrien Springs High School in 1980. Never lived in GR, but did live in Lansing for 13 years. I grew up in Buchanan, graduating HS in 1973. Did you know any of the Wallaces (Silvia, Jim, Angie)? Silvia is my aunt and Jim and Ang are my first cousins. My uncle Gary works at Cook Nuclear and has been a part of the Methodist church (Downtown Berrian Springs) since the late 50s. Silvia is the daughter of the guy who owned McGlauclan's Funeral Home. quote:
The SDA campus there in Berrien Springs is very nice (at least it was 25 years ago). Everybody called them 'peanuts' because of their vegatarian diets. LOL!!! Bought at Apple Valley no doubt!quote:
I think they qualify as a cult if they say you can't be saved if you don't observe the literal Sabbath law (which I think many of them believe). Anything outside of salvation by faith alone is a cult. As a messianic I have no problem with someone who wants to keep a Saturday sabbath as it is more scripturally defensible than Sunday. However, WHY do you have to keep it? I may take issue with the reasons. I certainly do with old lind SDA reasoning.
The SDA (old line conservatives) held that Sunday worship was the mark of the beast. I have a 1990s theology text from Andrews (from a yard sale) and clearly the author was on the way toward the evangelical camp. He said that it would become the mark of the beast ONLY AFTER God made it abundantly clear to all professing believers that He wanted them to worship on Saturday. Not quite in the evangelical group but getting closer.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Seventh-Day Adventist Church please help - 7/22/2008 1:51:46 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
...I grew up in Buchanan, graduating HS in 1973.
No way! My wife lived in Buchanan until the ninth grade. She lived on Bakertown Road and attended the Galien township school. The first house we lived in after we got married was on Wagner Road just west of Buchanan. I met her when she moved in with a friend just down the road from me in Baroda, MI. The house in Buchanan was her brothers that we rented from him after he went to Lousiana.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Did you know any of the Wallaces (Silvia, Jim, Angie)? Silvia is my aunt and Jim and Ang are my first cousins.
I don't. That wasn't my stomping ground. I asked my wife and she doesn't recall that family. She wondered if you remember the Kimball family. Made the news in a not so good way.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
My uncle Gary works at Cook Nuclear and has been a part of the Methodist church (Downtown Berrian Springs) since the late 50s. Silvia is the daughter of the guy who owned McGlauclan's Funeral Home.
Very familiar with the plant up there in the St. Joe area (Stevensville actually, right?). My wife and I were married in Arden Methodist Church just a couple of miles up the road from Berrien Springs. I always thought it strange that two Methodists churches were so close together.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
The SDA campus there in Berrien Springs is very nice (at least it was 25 years ago). Everybody called them 'peanuts' because of their vegatarian diets. LOL!!! Bought at Apple Valley no doubt!
Apple Valley Market--you really do know the area. Lots of dried fruits and nuts. I know this should be in a PM, but this is just too cool. I miss Buchanan and the life we started there in the country, but I had to give it up in 1982 to find work in the Air Force. Broke my heart. It hasn't been until now here in Tennessee that my dream of having a little land and an old house has been realized again.
Look forward to comparing more notes.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Seventh-Day Adventist Church please help - 7/22/2008 2:34:07 PM
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ihmusicman
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I am thankful for your responses. I personally dont feel its a Cult at least the Church I go to. They are very Evangelical. I just used the term Cult because I was researching the Church on the Internet and it says Cult all over the place. I agree there is no perfect Church. I was just worried because they wont put there name on the Crusade. I do like how they are into Bible Studies allot. Thanks for your input.
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RE: Seventh-Day Adventist Church please help - 7/22/2008 4:16:14 PM
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jn1010lf
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Hello ihmusicman
If you will check the Bible, the church started meeting on Sunday in the book of Acts. It was known as the Lord's day. Thus, the new gathering retianed it's Sunday attendance.
When Jesus instituted the New Covenant, He did away with the rules and regulations of the Judaic tradition. It's a relationship with the Lord that counts and what God actually wants.
Now the Adventists disavow any of the miracles that occured in the book of Acts. They are also very legaistic.
I would recommend that you study the New Testament and open yourself up to the person of Jesus Christ. If what you see there is not what you see in the Adventist church, get out of it. You may have answered your question already, as you've expressed doubt over its authenticity.
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RE: Seventh-Day Adventist Church please help - 7/22/2008 4:28:27 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
* There are the evangelicals, also less than half (but growing) that are pretty much in line with the rest of evangelicalism (except they meet on Saturday and are post-trib). They still read White and respect her as the founder of the denomination but do not consider her writings "inspired" or infallable.
Is it not true that these believe that Christians who worship on Sunday are not saved? Hell-bound?
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Seventh-Day Adventist Church please help - 7/22/2008 4:40:22 PM
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WesP
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Here is a site for their beliefs.
20. Sabbath:
The beneficent Creator, after the six days of Creation, rested on the seventh day and instituted the Sabbath for all people as a memorial of Creation. The fourth commandment of God's unchangeable law requires the observance of this seventh-day Sabbath as the day of rest, worship, and ministry in harmony with the teaching and practice of Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a day of delightful communion with God and one another. It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God's kingdom. The Sabbath is God's perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people. Joyful observance of this holy time from evening to evening, sunset to sunset, is a celebration of God's creative and redemptive acts. (Gen. 2:1-3; Ex. 20:8-11; Luke 4:16; Isa. 56:5, 6; 58:13, 14; Matt. 12:1-12; Ex. 31:13-17; Eze. 20:12, 20; Deut. 5:12-15; Heb. 4:1-11; Lev. 23:32; Mark 1:32.)
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Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
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RE: Seventh-Day Adventist Church please help - 7/22/2008 4:43:53 PM
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WesP
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There are a couple of other things that make me wonder:
24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:
There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement...
27. Millennium and the End of Sin:
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels...
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
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<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
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RE: Seventh-Day Adventist Church please help - 7/22/2008 5:47:59 PM
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BibleL7
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It is considered a cult by most because of the originator who got caught up in a false prophecy of the return of Christ. They do have some teachings which do not agree with mainline doctrines such as soul sleep and other ones mentioned in above posts. They also put out a magazine free to any which discusses Bible and their teachings It also does not mention SDA in its cover or regular parts and only by reading parts that contain variance of their doctrine would you even know it was from them. I found out in reading an article that stated that being from the Seventh Day Adventist church they believed in soul sleep. There was no other mention of SDA in magazine. They are very deceptive in that they will first make one believe they have sound biblical teaching then they will let you know what church they are with as if they would let people know at first they are SDA they would be dismissed as cult.
BTW it was the same false prophecy of Christls return that sparked the original Watch Tower magazine of JW in case you might be wondering of similar beliefs and practices.
< Message edited by BibleL7 -- 7/22/2008 5:54:29 PM >
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RE: Seventh-Day Adventist Church please help - 7/22/2008 10:33:44 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthlessquote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
* There are the evangelicals, also less than half (but growing) that are pretty much in line with the rest of evangelicalism (except they meet on Saturday and are post-trib). They still read White and respect her as the founder of the denomination but do not consider her writings "inspired" or infallible. Is it not true that these believe that Christians who worship on Sunday are not saved? Hell-bound? Not the evangelical branch. Read the last paragraph of my post #9. The old line conservatives still believe that way.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Seventh-Day Adventist Church please help - 7/22/2008 10:44:33 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BibleL7
It is considered a cult by most because of the originator who got caught up in a false prophecy of the return of Christ. They do have some teachings which do not agree with mainline doctrines such as soul sleep and other ones mentioned in above posts. ...
BTW it was the same false prophecy of Christls return that sparked the original Watch Tower magazine of JW in case you might be wondering of similar beliefs and practices. Historically that is not accurate. The SDA was formed in the wake of the "prophecy" NOT coming true that Christ was to return in the 1840s. The math based prediction was from a Rev Miller (Methodist pastor) of Battle Creek MI; and his followers were called "Millerites." A young miss White was among them. He became very depressed when the day came and went. She started praying and "had a vision." That consisted of the day was not incorrect but was not for the return but Christ moving from the throne room in Heaved to the Holy of Holies with the arc and Moses' tablets. A spotlight hilited "Remember the Sabbath...
THe JWs came from a calculation that HIS return was to be in 1924.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Seventh-Day Adventist Church please help - 7/23/2008 2:17:06 AM
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mbeshirs
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I grew up going to a Nazarene Church. I kept wondering why we went to church on Sunday cause the Bible says to go on Sabbath the seventh day. No one could give me a good answer and most answers were different. When I first met my current wife, I found out she went to the Seventh_day Adventist church. I researched it out a lot and then attended some of their churches and found it was what I had been looking for. At first I did not understand everything but with time and Bible study it now makes more sense than any other church or denomination that I have researched. I went to college for three years majoring in religion and have also talked to a few Jews. I now am a proud member of the church. To me it is not a cult at all. We believe in the trinity of God the father, Jesus the son, and THe Holy Spirit as equal parts. We believe the only way to heaven is through Jesus. We believe in the virgin birth of Jesus through Mary. We know she is not an eternal virgin. We believe that there is members of God's church in other denominations. WE are not the only religion that will have people going to heaven.
Hope this helps in your search.
Talk to one of the pastors or one of the elders. THey would be glad to hold some bible studies with you. I know that we have gotten some bad press and the denomination got off to a bad start but now is one of the fastest growing denominations in the world. we believe in healthy living with good diet and exercise. We have schools in many communities as well as hospitals and research centers worldwide.
Marvin
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RE: Seventh-Day Adventist Church please help - 7/23/2008 8:05:20 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mbeshirs
Talk to one of the pastors or one of the elders. THey would be glad to hold some bible studies with you.
Sorry, but this immediately brought the Jehovah Witnesses to my mind...
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Seventh-Day Adventist Church please help - 7/23/2008 9:04:08 AM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
I understand that some believe the evangelical branch of SDA is OK, but I have some serious reservations about them. Their unique doctrines were spawned by the anticipation of and failure for Jesus to appear in 1844. When it did not happen, they created the Christ's ministry in heaven doctrine. I just cannot accept what they believe, and I find it upsetting that they think they have an inside track on what Jesus is doing to prepare heaven for the Second Coming. What preparation would be necessary? How would they know? Why would Christ need to do investigative judgment? Omniscience kills that idea.
Yes you have written that well. Also if you would notice on top of the page here on crosswalk they have Amazing Facts advertisment which is SDA. They have a channel which is on Dish Network and is called 3 Angles network. They are heavy into numbers of years or a time line as to explain their thinking. Skipped a verse which told Noah Gen.9:3 to open up and allow him and us to stop being veggies and eat meat. The only thing was not to eat the blood for the life (soul) of the animal, was in it.
Have really a almost a great hatered to the RCC and the Sunday day gathering.
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RE: Seventh-Day Adventist Church please help - 7/23/2008 9:51:36 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
Dave,
Do you think they are correct in their base doctrine? Is it OK to assume the "asides" that they do? I am perhaps the wrong person to be asked that question. As a messianic, I also hold to a Saturday sabbath (as being more scripturally defensable than Sunday) and am not opposed to following much of the "laws" pertaining to the Mosaic covenant.
That said, they have replacement theology at the heart of their doctrine (as does most of evangelicalism) which is (IMO) totally wrong. That leads them to believe the Sabbath and other requirements of the law are their requirements also, in opposition to Acts 15.
In classical SDA, these requrements are considered salvic. The evangelical branch is moving away from that extreme stance.
As to the "soul sleep" theory, it can only be a theory and has no impact on either salvation or day to day christian living. As to their post-trib stance, most Messianics are post-trib as well. Pre-trib is a relativly recent doctrine, coming from the 1800s.
Their dietary restrictions are way beyond even the rabbinic extensions to the Mosaic dietary laws. I do not know where the evangelicals are at on this topic. The old guard considered eating any meat to be evil.
As to all the stuff going on in heaven, I personally hope the evangelicals dump that along with the other stuff they are leaving behind. Time will tell.
< Message edited by DaveW -- 7/23/2008 10:13:02 AM >
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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