CCLI revisited (Full Version)

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BarryBum -> CCLI revisited (7/21/2008 6:49:54 PM)

I posted several weeks ago about CCLI and the need for it. Well to update, our church has bought one and we fall under the A plan I think, attendance of less than 90.
I called and talked with a rep from CCLI today and got some information. She told me so much I can't remember all of it. Let me state a few things that I think I remember that she told me, if I am wrong please correct me, if i am right...please add to it. If I left anything out, please add it and help me out there as well. In the following, when I use the term "record" I mean that we record the services and give them to our shut ins.
1. You can't record any musical part of the service. Because of statement #2 below
2. Basically all that the CCLI covers is lyrics, not played music.
3. If someone wants to do a special song, they can't be recorded with the music. They can sing without the music and be recorded, but they can't play the music because CCLI don't cover played music.
4. If the choir sings a special as a stand alone group, not with church sing along, they can't be recorded or make copies of the song to had out to the choir.
5. Noone can sing or play an artists song and be recorded without prior written consent of the author

Basically from what I got out of our conversation, is the CCLI gives the rights to the LYRICS only..........from power point to choir/congregation song. I understood her to tell me that the CCLI does not cover the music.

I am sure there is a lot more, but to be honest I was so blown away by what she was telling me I can't remember.
The lady was extremely nice and tried to answer my questions, but I told her that I know as Christians we are supposed to obey the laws.....and we are. But all this legal mumbo jumbo really ties our hands in trying to spread the gospel.



1mlasp -> RE: CCLI revisited (7/21/2008 7:47:01 PM)

I also found CCLI to be very friendly, but the lady couldn't answer all of my questions. I arranged horn parts for a lot of the CCLI charts that my church does, and I was questioning the legalities of what I do, especially since the question has come up about me doing this for other churches. She referred me to another organization, based in Nashville, which was better able to answer my specific questions.

But regarding your questions, this is what my understanding is:

#1 - Technically, she is correct. For anything other than the regular and custumary use, CCLI will err on the side of caution. You would have to contact the copyright holders to legally record your praise team doing any of these songs for shut-ins and the like.

#2 - CCLI covers more than just lyrics, they also cover other printed music (lead sheets/keyboard score) for the worship band.

#3 - I would think that singing a song a capella would fall under the same limitations as singing a song with accompaniment, so I don't think that they could legally be recorded either.

#4 - Correct. Most churches project the lyrics on a screen now.

#5 - Not the author (composer) but the copyright holder. Often, these are two different entities.

I don't know if this helps or confuses more!

Steve



iluvatar -> RE: CCLI revisited (7/21/2008 8:41:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1mlasp
#3 - I would think that singing a song a capella would fall under the same limitations as singing a song with accompaniment, so I don't think that they could legally be recorded either.


Not necessarily - music (i.e. the melody & words) is covered under a different copyright from than the sound recording.

-Dan.



DaveW -> RE: CCLI revisited (7/22/2008 11:35:36 AM)

You are much better off from a legal standpoint if you write all your own music.



Cantwait-2-C-Him -> RE: CCLI revisited (7/29/2008 11:20:00 AM)

What a CCLI?



Hayseed -> RE: CCLI revisited (8/1/2008 2:27:17 PM)

A song is a song: music and lyrics.

I'm a songwriter that is registered with CCLI. Recording services for shut ins is one thing. Recording services and selling the product is another.

However, I used to request that the music time not be recorded because it was from a "house mix" and sounded horrible on the recording. That may sound "prideful" to many, but as a musician I want to give my best and most excellent to God from what he's given me. I like people to respect that.



FROGkissin -> RE: CCLI revisited (8/15/2008 1:18:06 AM)

I have to agree with Hayseed--
with some extra thoughts--

Most praise teams are not "dialed in" to the music, each other, or the sound board enough for recording purposes. They are not recording artists--they lead. Their focus is on the congregation, not on tight harmonies, etc

Most church recording equipment is not set up properly to record music, and even if it were, the ministry personnel who run the board do not have that kind of expertise. (I know, I have spent a lot of time in the sound booth in my life-time[8|]) The voice of the speaker sounds alright on the recording, but the music can sound so bad that it is painful to listen to! We are doing people a favor by not subjecting them to it.


also--did anyone mention royalties?

If we do not have and follow the CCLI system, Gifted and anointed musicians could be robbed of their lively-hood--they would have to take a job outside their true calling and.......
.......well......you get the picture, I'll step off the soap box now[&:]



Memaw. -> RE: CCLI revisited (8/15/2008 10:53:31 AM)

CCLI Website



quote:

What You Can Do

* Print songs, hymns and lyrics in bulletins, programs, liturgies and songsheets for use in congregational singing.
* Create your own customized songbooks or hymnals for use in congregational singing.
* Create overhead transparencies, slides or use any other format whereby song lyrics are visually projected (such as computer graphics and projection) for use in congregational singing.
* Arrange, print and copy your own arrangements (vocal and instrumental) of songs used for congregational singing, where no published version is available.
* Record your worship services (audio or video) provided you only record live music. Accompaniment tracks cannot be reproduced. You may charge up to $4 each for audiocassette tapes and CDs, and $12 each for videotapes and DVDs.

What You Cannot Do

* Photocopy or duplicate octavos, cantatas, musicals, handbell music, keyboard arrangements, vocal scores, orchestrations or other instrumental works.
* Translate songs into another language. This can only be done with the approval of the respective publisher.
* Rent, sell or lend copies made under the license to groups outside the church or to other churches. (It is OK to distribute recordings to shut-ins, missionaries or others outside the church.)
* Assign or transfer the license to another church or group without CCLI's approval.



DaveW -> RE: CCLI revisited (8/15/2008 12:05:04 PM)

quote:

What You Cannot Do

* Translate songs into another language. This can only be done with the approval of the respective publisher.
This one I do not get. If our sister congregation in Israel (all nativly speak either Hebrew or Russian) wants to do a ccm worship tune they have to sing in english?

My daughter attended there for almost a year and a half. She got so used to NOT singing in english that once they did sing an english song, she (a native english speaker) did not even recognise what language it was in until the song was almost over.

Can you not write your own lyrics to an existing tune (and they just happen to approximate the translation)?



davelinde -> RE: CCLI revisited (8/21/2008 1:01:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

What You Cannot Do

* Translate songs into another language. This can only be done with the approval of the respective publisher.
This one I do not get. If our... Can you not write your own lyrics to an existing tune (and they just happen to approximate the translation)?


You can do that and probably no one will ever complain... however CCLI is saying that THEY have not negotiated the rights for you to do that, and that right is not something they can offer you.

If you want to be completely OK with the copyright laws you'd need to get permission from the person who owns the song you want to translate. What would you prefer the laws be?



DaveW -> RE: CCLI revisited (8/21/2008 1:21:16 PM)

quote:

What would you prefer the laws be?
That is the rub, isn't it?

Unfortuantely, we are not dealing with songwriters and composers, we are dealing with corporate lawyers. I would prefer the law to bypass the lawyers and big corporate interests. Once a song gets published it is the secular publishing company who owns the rights to it and not the individual(s) who actually penned it.

But getting a lawyer to write a law leaving out lawyers.........



Hayseed -> RE: CCLI revisited (8/22/2008 11:39:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

... Once a song gets published it is the secular publishing company who owns the rights to it and not the individual(s) who actually penned it.

But getting a lawyer to write a law leaving out lawyers.........


Not necessarily. I have my own publishing company created for my music so I hold the publishing rights. Many other songwriters do that too, that I know of.

Maybe I misunderstood your point and am answering to something in a way you didn't intend it to mean[8D]?



DaveW -> RE: CCLI revisited (8/25/2008 2:25:56 PM)

I am sure you do not have lawyers writing cease and desist letters to congregations that use your songs and threatening to bankrupt the church with past royalties and penalties. Those cases are why CCLI was started in the first place.



Hayseed -> RE: CCLI revisited (8/25/2008 2:43:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

I am sure you do not have lawyers writing cease and desist letters to congregations that use your songs and threatening to bankrupt the church with past royalties and penalties. Those cases are why CCLI was started in the first place.


You're right. I don't. Although, I reckon if somebody was cashing in and making money with my songs, somehow, I'd ask for a cut of that action. I gotta pay bills too.



youthrev -> RE: CCLI revisited (8/26/2008 11:12:14 AM)

Can't a music minister make audio copies of the songs for his praise team if used for instructional purposes only? I have been in two churches which are very conscientious of the CCLI and CVLI standards and both of them have done this.



DaveW -> RE: CCLI revisited (8/27/2008 8:34:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: youthrev

Can't a music minister make audio copies of the songs for his praise team if used for instructional purposes only? I have been in two churches which are very conscientious of the CCLI and CVLI standards and both of them have done this.
Only if you record yourself playing them. You can't make copies of the original recordings.



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